IMHO, PHP is a great template language. This is what makes it so simple
and powerful, compared to other web languages.
So far, we have "<?php", "<?=" and various legacy syntaxes like "<?".
A suggestion : deprecate these old tags and replace them with a more
elegant and a shorter implementation.
For example : "<%" and "<%=" or "{%" and "{{" ?
What do you think, guys ?
Am 06.04.2012 04:55, schrieb Sébatien Durand:
IMHO, PHP is a great template language. This is what makes it so simple
and powerful, compared to other web languages.So far, we have "<?php", "<?=" and various legacy syntaxes like "<?".
A suggestion : deprecate these old tags and replace them with a more
elegant and a shorter implementation.For example : "<%" and "<%=" or "{%" and "{{" ?
What do you think, guys ?
that you calendar is broken (april 1st is over) or it was
not an april joke that i never will understand people
proposing changes only for the sake of the change
-----Original Message-----
From: Sébatien Durand [mailto:sunseb@live.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2012 10:55 PM
To: internals@lists.php.net
Subject: [PHP-DEV] PHP as a template languageIMHO, PHP is a great template language. This is what makes it so simple and powerful, compared to other web languages.
So far, we have "<?php", "<?=" and various legacy syntaxes like "<?".
A suggestion : deprecate these old tags and replace them with a more elegant and a shorter implementation.
For example : "<%" and "<%=" or "{%" and "{{" ?
What do you think, guys ?
Honestly this is the wrong question. PHP as a template language has much larger problems than this. The difference between <?php echo and <?= is 7 characters and entirely cosmetic. The difference relative to <?php echo htmlentities(..., ENT_QUOTES | ENT_HTML5, 'UTF-8'); ?> however is 56 characters, security, and encoding bugs.
Proper handling of output escaping is standard in modern template languages. The question shouldn't be "should we add a cooler short tag?". The question should be "What needs to be done to make PHP an industry leader in template languages again?".
My two cents,
John Crenshaw
Priacta, Inc.
I have to agree with that. Also: does PHP need to be a templating
language anymore, given excellent templating language implementations
in PHP, like Twig?
-----Original Message-----
From: Sébatien Durand [mailto:sunseb@live.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2012 10:55 PM
To: internals@lists.php.net
Subject: [PHP-DEV] PHP as a template languageIMHO, PHP is a great template language. This is what makes it so simple and powerful, compared to other web languages.
So far, we have "<?php", "<?=" and various legacy syntaxes like "<?".
A suggestion : deprecate these old tags and replace them with a more elegant and a shorter implementation.
For example : "<%" and "<%=" or "{%" and "{{" ?
What do you think, guys ?
Honestly this is the wrong question. PHP as a template language has much larger problems than this. The difference between <?php echo and <?= is 7 characters and entirely cosmetic. The difference relative to <?php echo htmlentities(...,
ENT_QUOTES| ENT_HTML5, 'UTF-8'); ?> however is 56 characters, security, and encoding bugs.Proper handling of output escaping is standard in modern template languages. The question shouldn't be "should we add a cooler short tag?". The question should be "What needs to be done to make PHP an industry leader in template languages again?".
My two cents,
John Crenshaw
Priacta, Inc.--
--
Tom Boutell
P'unk Avenue
215 755 1330
punkave.com
window.punkave.com
To tell the truth I'd be more excited by a proposal to kill <?php
entirely, or more realistically, to support an alternate file
extension that doesn't need it. That would be an interesting option
for those who want to put "dribs and drabs of PHP sprinkled in HTML"
completely behind them.
I have to agree with that. Also: does PHP need to be a templating
language anymore, given excellent templating language implementations
in PHP, like Twig?-----Original Message-----
From: Sébatien Durand [mailto:sunseb@live.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2012 10:55 PM
To: internals@lists.php.net
Subject: [PHP-DEV] PHP as a template languageIMHO, PHP is a great template language. This is what makes it so simple and powerful, compared to other web languages.
So far, we have "<?php", "<?=" and various legacy syntaxes like "<?".
A suggestion : deprecate these old tags and replace them with a more elegant and a shorter implementation.
For example : "<%" and "<%=" or "{%" and "{{" ?
What do you think, guys ?
Honestly this is the wrong question. PHP as a template language has much larger problems than this. The difference between <?php echo and <?= is 7 characters and entirely cosmetic. The difference relative to <?php echo htmlentities(...,
ENT_QUOTES| ENT_HTML5, 'UTF-8'); ?> however is 56 characters, security, and encoding bugs.Proper handling of output escaping is standard in modern template languages. The question shouldn't be "should we add a cooler short tag?". The question should be "What needs to be done to make PHP an industry leader in template languages again?".
My two cents,
John Crenshaw
Priacta, Inc.--
--
Tom Boutell
P'unk Avenue
215 755 1330
punkave.com
window.punkave.com
--
Tom Boutell
P'unk Avenue
215 755 1330
punkave.com
window.punkave.com
what exactly is your problem?
having solution searching problem?
what are people like you try to achieve?
what would make you happy in breaking BC?
what would you make happy generate lot of work for others?
what would be better for anybody?
change for the sake of the change is blindly stupid
Am 06.04.2012 23:20, schrieb Tom Boutell:
To tell the truth I'd be more excited by a proposal to kill <?php
entirely, or more realistically, to support an alternate file
extension that doesn't need it. That would be an interesting option
for those who want to put "dribs and drabs of PHP sprinkled in HTML"
completely behind them.I have to agree with that. Also: does PHP need to be a templating
language anymore, given excellent templating language implementations
in PHP, like Twig?-----Original Message-----
From: Sébatien Durand [mailto:sunseb@live.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2012 10:55 PM
To: internals@lists.php.net
Subject: [PHP-DEV] PHP as a template languageIMHO, PHP is a great template language. This is what makes it so simple and powerful, compared to other web languages.
So far, we have "<?php", "<?=" and various legacy syntaxes like "<?".
A suggestion : deprecate these old tags and replace them with a more elegant and a shorter implementation.
For example : "<%" and "<%=" or "{%" and "{{" ?
What do you think, guys ?
Honestly this is the wrong question. PHP as a template language has much larger problems than this. The difference between <?php echo and <?= is 7 characters and entirely cosmetic. The difference relative to <?php echo htmlentities(...,
ENT_QUOTES| ENT_HTML5, 'UTF-8'); ?> however is 56 characters, security, and encoding bugs.Proper handling of output escaping is standard in modern template languages. The question shouldn't be "should we add a cooler short tag?". The question should be "What needs to be done to make PHP an industry leader in template languages again?".
My two cents,
John Crenshaw
Priacta, Inc.--
--
Tom Boutell
P'unk Avenue
215 755 1330
punkave.com
window.punkave.com
--
Mit besten Grüßen, Reindl Harald
the lounge interactive design GmbH
A-1060 Vienna, Hofmühlgasse 17
CTO / software-development / cms-solutions
p: +43 (1) 595 3999 33, m: +43 (676) 40 221 40
icq: 154546673, http://www.thelounge.net/
Knock it off with the ad-hominem attacks please. It's not "change for
the sake of change" to propose that PHP move on from needing <?php at
the stop of every class file (and breaking mysteriously in weird
subtle ways if it's missing, due to unneeded whitespace being output)
and recognize that it's a modern language in which you don't mix
unparsed HTML with source code. Especially since I suggested offering
this feature when an alternate file extension is used, to make bc
possible. Your attitude discourages participation.
what exactly is your problem?
having solution searching problem?what are people like you try to achieve?
what would make you happy in breaking BC?
what would you make happy generate lot of work for others?
what would be better for anybody?change for the sake of the change is blindly stupid
Am 06.04.2012 23:20, schrieb Tom Boutell:
To tell the truth I'd be more excited by a proposal to kill <?php
entirely, or more realistically, to support an alternate file
extension that doesn't need it. That would be an interesting option
for those who want to put "dribs and drabs of PHP sprinkled in HTML"
completely behind them.I have to agree with that. Also: does PHP need to be a templating
language anymore, given excellent templating language implementations
in PHP, like Twig?-----Original Message-----
From: Sébatien Durand [mailto:sunseb@live.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2012 10:55 PM
To: internals@lists.php.net
Subject: [PHP-DEV] PHP as a template languageIMHO, PHP is a great template language. This is what makes it so simple and powerful, compared to other web languages.
So far, we have "<?php", "<?=" and various legacy syntaxes like "<?".
A suggestion : deprecate these old tags and replace them with a more elegant and a shorter implementation.
For example : "<%" and "<%=" or "{%" and "{{" ?
What do you think, guys ?
Honestly this is the wrong question. PHP as a template language has much larger problems than this. The difference between <?php echo and <?= is 7 characters and entirely cosmetic. The difference relative to <?php echo htmlentities(...,
ENT_QUOTES| ENT_HTML5, 'UTF-8'); ?> however is 56 characters, security, and encoding bugs.Proper handling of output escaping is standard in modern template languages. The question shouldn't be "should we add a cooler short tag?". The question should be "What needs to be done to make PHP an industry leader in template languages again?".
My two cents,
John Crenshaw
Priacta, Inc.--
--
Tom Boutell
P'unk Avenue
215 755 1330
punkave.com
window.punkave.com--
Mit besten Grüßen, Reindl Harald
the lounge interactive design GmbH
A-1060 Vienna, Hofmühlgasse 17
CTO / software-development / cms-solutions
p: +43 (1) 595 3999 33, m: +43 (676) 40 221 40
icq: 154546673, http://www.thelounge.net/
--
Tom Boutell
P'unk Avenue
215 755 1330
punkave.com
window.punkave.com
I should have said "breaking mysteriously in weird subtle ways if
there are blank lines before <?php."
Knock it off with the ad-hominem attacks please. It's not "change for
the sake of change" to propose that PHP move on from needing <?php at
the stop of every class file (and breaking mysteriously in weird
subtle ways if it's missing, due to unneeded whitespace being output)
and recognize that it's a modern language in which you don't mix
unparsed HTML with source code. Especially since I suggested offering
this feature when an alternate file extension is used, to make bc
possible. Your attitude discourages participation.what exactly is your problem?
having solution searching problem?what are people like you try to achieve?
what would make you happy in breaking BC?
what would you make happy generate lot of work for others?
what would be better for anybody?change for the sake of the change is blindly stupid
Am 06.04.2012 23:20, schrieb Tom Boutell:
To tell the truth I'd be more excited by a proposal to kill <?php
entirely, or more realistically, to support an alternate file
extension that doesn't need it. That would be an interesting option
for those who want to put "dribs and drabs of PHP sprinkled in HTML"
completely behind them.I have to agree with that. Also: does PHP need to be a templating
language anymore, given excellent templating language implementations
in PHP, like Twig?-----Original Message-----
From: Sébatien Durand [mailto:sunseb@live.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2012 10:55 PM
To: internals@lists.php.net
Subject: [PHP-DEV] PHP as a template languageIMHO, PHP is a great template language. This is what makes it so simple and powerful, compared to other web languages.
So far, we have "<?php", "<?=" and various legacy syntaxes like "<?".
A suggestion : deprecate these old tags and replace them with a more elegant and a shorter implementation.
For example : "<%" and "<%=" or "{%" and "{{" ?
What do you think, guys ?
Honestly this is the wrong question. PHP as a template language has much larger problems than this. The difference between <?php echo and <?= is 7 characters and entirely cosmetic. The difference relative to <?php echo htmlentities(...,
ENT_QUOTES| ENT_HTML5, 'UTF-8'); ?> however is 56 characters, security, and encoding bugs.Proper handling of output escaping is standard in modern template languages. The question shouldn't be "should we add a cooler short tag?". The question should be "What needs to be done to make PHP an industry leader in template languages again?".
My two cents,
John Crenshaw
Priacta, Inc.--
--
Tom Boutell
P'unk Avenue
215 755 1330
punkave.com
window.punkave.com--
Mit besten Grüßen, Reindl Harald
the lounge interactive design GmbH
A-1060 Vienna, Hofmühlgasse 17
CTO / software-development / cms-solutions
p: +43 (1) 595 3999 33, m: +43 (676) 40 221 40
icq: 154546673, http://www.thelounge.net/--
Tom Boutell
P'unk Avenue
215 755 1330
punkave.com
window.punkave.com
--
Tom Boutell
P'unk Avenue
215 755 1330
punkave.com
window.punkave.com
Am 06.04.2012 23:30, schrieb Tom Boutell:
Knock it off with the ad-hominem attacks please.
what do you expect by propose work for many people
It's not "change for the sake of change" to propose that PHP move on from
needing <?php at the stop of every class file
is it so hard to write
(and breaking mysteriously in weird
subtle ways if it's missing, due to unneeded whitespace being output)
why are you making this whitespaces?
fix your editor or get an IDE removing them at save
and recognize that it's a modern language in which you don't mix
unparsed HTML with source code.
you are not in the position to dictate how people are working
there are differences between projects, classes and
rapid-development and thousands of good reasons
using <input type="text" value="<?=$myvar?> forever
while you will not do this in many other projects
and lcass files
Especially since I suggested offering
this feature when an alternate file extension is used, to make bc
possible. Your attitude discourages participation.
but you are not realizing that extensuions are meaningless
in the real world - you can configure httpd to parse .wtf
with PHP
BTW: you do not need to use reply-all, one msg to the list is enough
what exactly is your problem?
having solution searching problem?what are people like you try to achieve?
what would make you happy in breaking BC?
what would you make happy generate lot of work for others?
what would be better for anybody?change for the sake of the change is blindly stupid
Am 06.04.2012 23:20, schrieb Tom Boutell:
To tell the truth I'd be more excited by a proposal to kill <?php
entirely, or more realistically, to support an alternate file
extension that doesn't need it. That would be an interesting option
for those who want to put "dribs and drabs of PHP sprinkled in HTML"
completely behind them.I have to agree with that. Also: does PHP need to be a templating
language anymore, given excellent templating language implementations
in PHP, like Twig?-----Original Message-----
From: Sébatien Durand [mailto:sunseb@live.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2012 10:55 PM
To: internals@lists.php.net
Subject: [PHP-DEV] PHP as a template languageIMHO, PHP is a great template language. This is what makes it so simple and powerful, compared to other web languages.
So far, we have "<?php", "<?=" and various legacy syntaxes like "<?".
A suggestion : deprecate these old tags and replace them with a more elegant and a shorter implementation.
For example : "<%" and "<%=" or "{%" and "{{" ?
What do you think, guys ?
Honestly this is the wrong question. PHP as a template language has much larger problems than this. The difference between <?php echo and <?= is 7 characters and entirely cosmetic. The difference relative to <?php echo htmlentities(...,
ENT_QUOTES| ENT_HTML5, 'UTF-8'); ?> however is 56 characters, security, and encoding bugs.Proper handling of output escaping is standard in modern template languages. The question shouldn't be "should we add a cooler short tag?". The question should be "What needs to be done to make PHP an industry leader in template languages again?".
My two cents,
John Crenshaw
Priacta, Inc.--
--
Tom Boutell
P'unk Avenue
215 755 1330
punkave.com
window.punkave.com--
Mit besten Grüßen, Reindl Harald
the lounge interactive design GmbH
A-1060 Vienna, Hofmühlgasse 17
CTO / software-development / cms-solutions
p: +43 (1) 595 3999 33, m: +43 (676) 40 221 40
icq: 154546673, http://www.thelounge.net/
--
Mit besten Grüßen, Reindl Harald
the lounge interactive design GmbH
A-1060 Vienna, Hofmühlgasse 17
CTO / software-development / cms-solutions
p: +43 (1) 595 3999 33, m: +43 (676) 40 221 40
icq: 154546673, http://www.thelounge.net/
what do you expect by propose work for many people
Oh I'm sorry, do we need to start every feature suggestion with a
description of exactly who will do the work?
is it so hard to write
It is so embarrassing. Every time I type it a Ruby developer laughs
like a hyena.
why are you making this whitespaces?
fix your editor or get an IDE removing them at save
Right, workarounds forever, nothing should be fixed at the source.
you are not in the position to dictate how people are working
You'll note I acknowledged bc is necessary. But you don't seem to be
able to stop yelling anyway.
there are differences between projects, classes and
rapid-development and thousands of good reasons
using <input type="text" value="<?=$myvar?> forever
while you will not do this in many other projects
and lcass files
Thousands of good reasons to get pwn3d by XSS attacks! Yay!
but you are not realizing that extensuions are meaningless
in the real world - you can configure httpd to parse .wtf
with PHP
That's a valid point. So the cli gets a default behavior based on
extension (and options to remap it), and FPM and mod_php get options
so you can configure them to do the right thing.
This wouldn't be an easy one and perhaps it's not practical, but
that's no reason to be venomous.
--
Tom Boutell
P'unk Avenue
215 755 1330
punkave.com
window.punkave.com
Am 06.04.2012 23:54, schrieb Tom Boutell:
what do you expect by propose work for many people
Oh I'm sorry, do we need to start every feature suggestion with a
description of exactly who will do the work?
the "who" in such cases are ALL developers out there damned
can i send you the invoice for my time if your ideas
would be realizedß if no shut up!
propsoing BC incompatible changes FOr NOTHING is
forcing thousands of users changing many
thousands of files for nothing while they
end in make them incompatible for older
versions
in which world do you live that you have no useful work bseides
changing perfect working code?
why are you making this whitespaces?
fix your editor or get an IDE removing them at saveRight, workarounds forever, nothing should be fixed at the source.
what is a workaround in not make useless whitespaces?
where is your feature request to remove shebang of
bash-scripts and where is your whining that the are
not woring with windows-linebreaks
you are not in the position to dictate how people are working
You'll note I acknowledged bc is necessary. But you don't seem to be
able to stop yelling anyway.
yes, i am not able to stop calling people to lazy
writing <?php and not write whitespaces in front
morons
there are differences between projects, classes and
rapid-development and thousands of good reasons
using <input type="text" value="<?=$myvar?> forever
while you will not do this in many other projects
and lcass filesThousands of good reasons to get pwn3d by XSS attacks! Yay!
it is not the problem of the scripting-language
that idiots do not sanitize their variables
do you believe echo $var; is protected by god himself
or what let you imagine there is any difference?
but you are not realizing that extensuions are meaningless
in the real world - you can configure httpd to parse .wtf
with PHPThat's a valid point. So the cli gets a default behavior based on
extension (and options to remap it), and FPM and mod_php get options
so you can configure them to do the right thing.
what is the right thing?
gining another config-choic e to make every script
on different hosting-providers more and more a
gambling machine because you never know if you
should write yur code with <?pghp or without?
This wouldn't be an easy one and perhaps it's not practical, but
that's no reason to be venomous.
yes it is not practical
so please leave the world in peace with your theory
and take whatever language you want if your are not
staisfied with the oprinciples of PHP
yes, i am not able to stop calling people to lazy writing <?php and not write whitespaces in front morons
The constant personal attacks are a violation of the mailing list rules. Nobody likes getting this in their inbox. Please let's keep this civil.
John Crenshaw
Priacta, Inc.
Hello,
Am 06.04.2012 23:54, schrieb Tom Boutell:
the "who" in such cases are ALL developers out there damned
can i send you the invoice for my time if your ideas
would be realizedß if no shut up!
Why is it every single time I see your name in the discussions here it
is shortly followed by hostile personal attacks. Do you have no idea
how to maintain a level of professionalism when interacting with the
opinions and ideas of other developers?
Does your company, http://www.thelounge.net/ represent itself in this
way? If I was a prospecting customer who had a idea for a relevant
technology venture and was willing to pay for it would I receive
personal attacks for mentioning something you disagree with?
Why don't you act not just like a industry professional, but a decent
human being when you talk to people.
Am 07.04.2012 01:30, schrieb Chris Stockton:
Hello,
Am 06.04.2012 23:54, schrieb Tom Boutell:
the "who" in such cases are ALL developers out there damned
can i send you the invoice for my time if your ideas
would be realizedß if no shut up!Why is it every single time I see your name in the discussions here it
is shortly followed by hostile personal attacks.
maybe because i do not comment every and each post
out in this world - only the one which would make
hughe damage in most existing applications?
Do you have no idea how to maintain a level of professionalism when
interacting with the opinions and ideas of other developers?
i have ideas how to do so
but i learned over many years that people do not understand
that they ahve really bad ideas if you say freindly
"not a godd idea"
Does your company, http://www.thelounge.net/ represent itself in this
way? If I was a prospecting customer who had a idea for a relevant
technology venture and was willing to pay for it would I receive
personal attacks for mentioning something you disagree with?
does the OP with they idea dropping <?php pay me for change applications
with some hundret thousands LOC and restart testing from scratch
forced by chnages the world does not need?
no he does not!
if he would offer me around 500.000 € i would consider change, rewrite
and test all the work of the last ten years for some hundret domains
relaxed and with many satisfaction
Why don't you act not just like a industry professional, but a decent
human being when you talk to people
because i saw way too much useless changes in too much
software stacks, mostly with poor quality and less benefit
the last years proposed and done by bored people only for
the sake of the change?
BTW: is your "reply to list" broken or why using "reply all"?
-----Original Message-----
From: Reindl Harald [mailto:h.reindl@thelounge.net]
Am 07.04.2012 01:30, schrieb Chris Stockton:
Hello,
Am 06.04.2012 23:54, schrieb Tom Boutell:
the "who" in such cases are ALL developers out there damned can i
send you the invoice for my time if your ideas would be realizedß if
no shut up!Why is it every single time I see your name in the discussions here it
is shortly followed by hostile personal attacks.maybe because i do not comment every and each post out in this world - only
the one which would make hughe damage in most existing applications?
Seriously, if you're so angry that you can't even type straight you should take a break before responding. Any argument delivered like this won't be well received anyway. Take a break, find your place of zen, respond when you can be civil.
Do you have no idea how to maintain a level of professionalism when
interacting with the opinions and ideas of other developers?i have ideas how to do so
but i learned over many years that people do not understand that they have
really bad ideas if you say freindly "not a godd idea"
Wow. I'm honestly shocked. That's the crux of it isn't it? Trouble is that this sort of response violates the rules of the mailing list; rules that we all agreed to. It also isn't going to go over well with the type of people you have here. This is not a productive communication tactic, this is bullying. If you are unwilling to be civil and rational I have to ask, why are you even here?
John Crenshaw
Priacta, Inc.
Seriously, if you're so angry that you can't even type straight you should take a break before responding. Any argument delivered like this won't be well received anyway. Take a break, find your place of zen, respond when you can be civil.
Do you have no idea how to maintain a level of professionalism when
interacting with the opinions and ideas of other developers?i have ideas how to do so
but i learned over many years that people do not understand that they have
really bad ideas if you say freindly "not a godd idea"Wow. I'm honestly shocked. That's the crux of it isn't it? Trouble is that this sort of response violates the rules of the mailing list; rules that we all agreed to. It also isn't going to go over well with the type of people you have here. This is not a productive communication tactic, this is bullying. If you are unwilling to be civil and rational I have to ask, why are you even here?
John Crenshaw
Priacta, Inc.
John, I completely agree with you. I would like to urge Reindl to
please, PLEASE, reconsider your response, at least once, preferably even
more often, before posting it. In this thread alone, you have personally
attacked Tom Boutell for no good reason. Your responses were generally
very very rude, and may easily (and in my opinion rightfuly so) be
considered personal attacks.
Again, I urge you to reconsider posting such messages. The rules of
conduct on these mailinglists include section on exactly this. They are
there to remind us all to be civil. We do not attack eachother in the
way you do. Instead, you may politely state your view, but do not yell,
scream, or try to force your views on others.
I would suggest you reread what you have posted, and try to imagine what
it would look like from other reader's points of view. Personally I felt
very unpleasant reading your responses. I was hoping it would be a
one-time-only post, born from anger on a bad day, and that it would be
followed by an apology. Unfortunately, you continued posting this way.
I am sorry I had to write this. But I feel we should all stand up for
eachother.
To tell the truth I'd be more excited by a proposal to kill <?php
entirely, or more realistically, to support an alternate file
extension that doesn't need it. That would be an interesting option
for those who want to put "dribs and drabs of PHP sprinkled in HTML"
completely behind them.
Tom: I agree with your point. I think it would be nice to be able to
create PHP codefiles which do not require the <?php start. But IMO it
would just be a nice-to-have thing, and not really that important, since
I'm not that bothered by using <?php at the start of every file.
Just my $0.02,
- Tul
It's probably worth mentioning, to be fair to Reindl, that he can no longer
respond publically to this list..
Thanks,
Kiall
Sent from my phone.
On Apr 7, 2012 8:07 p.m., "Maciek Sokolewicz" maciek.sokolewicz@gmail.com
wrote:
Seriously, if you're so angry that you can't even type straight you
should take a break before responding. Any argument delivered like this
won't be well received anyway. Take a break, find your place of zen,
respond when you can be civil.Do you have no idea how to maintain a level of professionalism when
interacting with the opinions and ideas of other developers?
i have ideas how to do so
but i learned over many years that people do not understand that they
have
really bad ideas if you say freindly "not a godd idea"Wow. I'm honestly shocked. That's the crux of it isn't it? Trouble is
that this sort of response violates the rules of the mailing list; rules
that we all agreed to. It also isn't going to go over well with the type of
people you have here. This is not a productive communication tactic, this
is bullying. If you are unwilling to be civil and rational I have to ask,
why are you even here?John Crenshaw
Priacta, Inc.John, I completely agree with you. I would like to urge Reindl to please,
PLEASE, reconsider your response, at least once, preferably even more
often, before posting it. In this thread alone, you have personally
attacked Tom Boutell for no good reason. Your responses were generally very
very rude, and may easily (and in my opinion rightfuly so) be considered
personal attacks.Again, I urge you to reconsider posting such messages. The rules of
conduct on these mailinglists include section on exactly this. They are
there to remind us all to be civil. We do not attack eachother in the way
you do. Instead, you may politely state your view, but do not yell, scream,
or try to force your views on others.I would suggest you reread what you have posted, and try to imagine what
it would look like from other reader's points of view. Personally I felt
very unpleasant reading your responses. I was hoping it would be a
one-time-only post, born from anger on a bad day, and that it would be
followed by an apology. Unfortunately, you continued posting this way.I am sorry I had to write this. But I feel we should all stand up for
eachother.To tell the truth I'd be more excited by a proposal to kill <?php
entirely, or more realistically, to support an alternate file
extension that doesn't need it. That would be an interesting option
for those who want to put "dribs and drabs of PHP sprinkled in HTML"
completely behind them.Tom: I agree with your point. I think it would be nice to be able to
create PHP codefiles which do not require the <?php start. But IMO it would
just be a nice-to-have thing, and not really that important, since I'm not
that bothered by using <?php at the start of every file.Just my $0.02,
- Tul
Tom Boutell wrote:
Knock it off with the ad-hominem attacks please.
You are entitled to your views, but I suspect that this would be a nail far too
far. I for one would be only too happy to cut loose and keep a REAL copy of PHP
running as all this ballast is simply destroying what used to be an agile
scripting language.
Anybody for RealPHP and roll back to say 5.2 and strip out anything not needed
at run time :) All this 'hinting' and 'moaning' at what always used to be
perfectly good code is the pain in the posterior. STRICT is going to take me
months to assimilate, so simply switching back to a version that does not have
it and keeping perfectly good sites running makes more sense than discussing
changes that need every file the thousands currently running on my system
reviewing ... I'm currently having to review every site to check it will even
run cleanly on 5.3 when the ISP loads that up next month!
--
Lester Caine - G8HFL
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk//
Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php
Thank you for your answers. I didn't want to create flaming.
PHP is already damn good. I have tried Ruby/ROR, Python/Django, but I still
prefer the flow of PHP.
I personally like mixing PHP/HTML. It's not bad. It allows us to work with
simplicity. For example : http://tinyurl.com/cyrlchw
"Details make perfection and perfection is not a detail." (Leonardo da
Vinci)
But I was not completely aware of the level of change/break my suggestion
will cause.
I'm grateful the work you do. It was just a usability/cosmetic remark of a
daily PHP user. I can live with it.
;-)
Tom Boutell wrote:
To tell the truth I'd be more excited by a proposal to kill <?php
entirely, or more realistically, to support an alternate file
extension that doesn't need it. That would be an interesting option
for those who want to put "dribs and drabs of PHP sprinkled in HTML"
completely behind them.I have to agree with that. Also: does PHP need to be a templating
language anymore, given excellent templating language implementations
in PHP, like Twig?On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 3:05 PM, John Crenshaw johncrenshaw@priacta.com
wrote:-----Original Message-----
From: Sébatien Durand [mailto:sunseb@live.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2012 10:55 PM
To: internals@lists.php.net
Subject: [PHP-DEV] PHP as a template languageIMHO, PHP is a great template language. This is what makes it so simple
and powerful, compared to other web languages.So far, we have "<?php", "<?=" and various legacy syntaxes like "<?".
A suggestion : deprecate these old tags and replace them with a more
elegant and a shorter implementation.For example : "<%" and "<%=" or "{%" and "{{" ?
What do you think, guys ?
Honestly this is the wrong question. PHP as a template language has much
larger problems than this. The difference between <?php echo and <?= is
7 characters and entirely cosmetic. The difference relative to <?php
echo htmlentities(...,ENT_QUOTES| ENT_HTML5, 'UTF-8'); ?> however is
56 characters, security, and encoding bugs.Proper handling of output escaping is standard in modern template
languages. The question shouldn't be "should we add a cooler short
tag?". The question should be "What needs to be done to make PHP an
industry leader in template languages again?".My two cents,
John Crenshaw
Priacta, Inc.--
--
Tom Boutell
P'unk Avenue
215 755 1330
punkave.com
window.punkave.com
April fools was 6 days ago ;)
I personally like mixing PHP/HTML. It's not bad. It allows us to work with
simplicity. For example : http://tinyurl.com/cyrlchwTom Boutell wrote:
To tell the truth I'd be more excited by a proposal to kill <?php
entirely, or more realistically, to support an alternate file
extension that doesn't need it. That would be an interesting option
for those who want to put "dribs and drabs of PHP sprinkled in HTML"
completely behind them.I have to agree with that. Also: does PHP need to be a templating
language anymore, given excellent templating language implementations
in PHP, like Twig?On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 3:05 PM, John Crenshaw <johncrenshaw@priacta.com (mailto:johncrenshaw@priacta.com)>
wrote:-----Original Message-----
From: Sébatien Durand [mailto:sunseb@live.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2012 10:55 PM
To: internals@lists.php.net (mailto:internals@lists.php.net)
Subject: [PHP-DEV] PHP as a template languageIMHO, PHP is a great template language. This is what makes it so simple
and powerful, compared to other web languages.So far, we have "<?php", "<?=" and various legacy syntaxes like "<?".
A suggestion : deprecate these old tags and replace them with a more
elegant and a shorter implementation.For example : "<%" and "<%=" or "{%" and "{{" ?
What do you think, guys ?
Honestly this is the wrong question. PHP as a template language has much
larger problems than this. The difference between <?php echo and <?= is
7 characters and entirely cosmetic. The difference relative to <?php
echo htmlentities(...,ENT_QUOTES| ENT_HTML5, 'UTF-8'); ?> however is
56 characters, security, and encoding bugs.Proper handling of output escaping is standard in modern template
languages. The question shouldn't be "should we add a cooler short
tag?". The question should be "What needs to be done to make PHP an
industry leader in template languages again?".My two cents,
John Crenshaw
Priacta, Inc.--
--
Tom Boutell
P'unk Avenue
215 755 1330
punkave.com (http://punkave.com)
window.punkave.com (http://window.punkave.com)
Sébatien Durand wrote:
But I was not completely aware of the level of change/break my suggestion
will cause.I'm grateful the work you do. It was just a usability/cosmetic remark of a
daily PHP user. I can live with it.
You have to bear in mind that many of us have many years of code base invested
in PHP and even the 'improvements' that do get through are just major drains on
a rare resource - time! There IS nothing wrong with PHP that was written 10
years ago and many sites just never get updated. Heck PHP4 IS still running in
the field. My own view is that many of the current 'developments' are more to
make the language 'compiler friendly' and don't have a place when running the
code live. Fixing the support would eliminate many of the 'complaints' rather
than loading PHP up with checks that don't add anything to generating a html
page ... which is the only place PHP should be targeting ... from my point of
view. Anything else ... use a more suitable language in the first place?
--
Lester Caine - G8HFL
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk//
Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php