Hello Internals,
The PHP 8 release is going to be huge, and in some sense, you could
say it's a whole new language. There is a feeling that more can be
done to promote it more extensively.
Usually for releases, there’s a short text announcement on php.net.
This may be okay for minor releases and for people who are deeply
involved in PHP as they already know about the new features. But for
the majority of PHP developers and potential PHP developers, it is not
enough.
So, the idea is to create a separate release announcement landing page
to achieve the following goals:
– Promote the release of PHP 8 to the PHP developers
– Promote PHP as a modern language, as well as the PHP 8 release, to
the general tech audience
Alexander Makarov, myself, and Svetlana Belozerova, a designer from
JetBrains, have created the following concept:
https://i.imgur.com/6fKmTyM.jpg
We’d like to hear from you about how you like the idea. If you support
it, we’ll finish the design and work on a PR against
github.com/php/web-php with the implementation.
Looking forward to hearing what you think.
Roman Pronskiy,
PMM at JetBrains
On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 9:57 AM Roman Pronskiy roman.pronskiy@jetbrains.com
wrote:
Hello Internals,
Hi, this message ended up in my spam directory with the message, could be
that people missed it. When opening the message, gmail told me: "Gmail
could not verify that it actually came from jetbrains.com. Avoid clicking
links, downloading attachments, or replying with personal information."
Can confirm, Gmail ate the email into spam folder.
On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 9:57 AM Roman Pronskiy <
roman.pronskiy@jetbrains.com>
wrote:Hello Internals,
Hi, this message ended up in my spam directory with the message, could be
that people missed it. When opening the message, gmail told me: "Gmail
could not verify that it actually came from jetbrains.com. Avoid clicking
links, downloading attachments, or replying with personal information."
Am 12.10.2020 um 09:56 schrieb Roman Pronskiy:
The PHP 8 release is going to be huge, and in some sense, you could
say it's a whole new language. There is a feeling that more can be
done to promote it more extensively.
Agreed!
So, the idea is to create a separate release announcement landing page
to achieve the following goals:– Promote the release of PHP 8 to the PHP developers
– Promote PHP as a modern language, as well as the PHP 8 release, to
the general tech audienceAlexander Makarov, myself, and Svetlana Belozerova, a designer from
JetBrains, have created the following concept:
https://i.imgur.com/6fKmTyM.jpg
I like the idea as well as the concept you shared.
The PHP 8 release is going to be huge, and in some sense, you could
say it's a whole new language. There is a feeling that more can be
done to promote it more extensively.
HOPEFULLY that does not mean it's as much of a cock-up as Python 2 to
Python 3 changes. Personally I think this simply reinforces my thought
that I will simply stick with PHP7 for as long as I can. I'm still
running 7.2 live, and working through the code changes to get 7.3
running without warnings and since I'm reliant on Firebird I now have to
manually build modules anyway so securing a private build I can maintain
myself seems the right way forward.
--
Lester Caine - G8HFL
Contact - https://lsces.uk/wiki/Contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - https://lsces.uk
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - https://medw.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - https://rainbowdigitalmedia.uk
On Mon, 12 Oct 2020 at 08:57, Roman Pronskiy roman.pronskiy@jetbrains.com
wrote:
The PHP 8 release is going to be huge, and in some sense, you could
say it's a whole new language.
I think that's going a bit far. I don't want to detract from the great
features in 8.0, but there were great features in other releases as well -
7.4 had arrow functions and typed properties, for instance, which are just
as game-changing for some code as named parameters and constructor property
promotion.
So, while I like the idea of shouting about the release, I'd like to see
this become a regular effort for every release from now on (i.e. 8.1,
8.2, etc), and I'd like to see it emphasise "version 8.0" rather than "PHP
8".
With both PHP 5 and PHP 7, there was a concerted "evangelism" effort to get
hosts and applications to upgrade, but really we want that to happen every
year, not just every 5 years. I'm concerned that people may consider "PHP
7" to be "current", even though both 7.0 and 7.1 are now EOL, and that the
same will happen with "PHP 8" in a few years' time.
Regards,
Rowan Tommins
[IMSoP]
Agree, this should be for every release. So with this concept, we can
start from PHP 8.0, see how it works, and then reuse the template for
subsequent releases.
On Mon, 12 Oct 2020 at 08:57, Roman Pronskiy roman.pronskiy@jetbrains.com
wrote:The PHP 8 release is going to be huge, and in some sense, you could
say it's a whole new language.I think that's going a bit far. I don't want to detract from the great
features in 8.0, but there were great features in other releases as well -
7.4 had arrow functions and typed properties, for instance, which are just
as game-changing for some code as named parameters and constructor property
promotion.So, while I like the idea of shouting about the release, I'd like to see
this become a regular effort for every release from now on (i.e. 8.1,
8.2, etc), and I'd like to see it emphasise "version 8.0" rather than "PHP
8".With both PHP 5 and PHP 7, there was a concerted "evangelism" effort to get
hosts and applications to upgrade, but really we want that to happen every
year, not just every 5 years. I'm concerned that people may consider "PHP
7" to be "current", even though both 7.0 and 7.1 are now EOL, and that the
same will happen with "PHP 8" in a few years' time.Regards,
Rowan Tommins
[IMSoP]
--
Best regards,
Roman Pronskiy
Product Marketing Manager of PhpStorm
https://www.jetbrains.com/
Hello Internals,
The PHP 8 release is going to be huge, and in some sense, you could
say it's a whole new language. There is a feeling that more can be
done to promote it more extensively.Usually for releases, there’s a short text announcement on php.net.
This may be okay for minor releases and for people who are deeply
involved in PHP as they already know about the new features. But for
the majority of PHP developers and potential PHP developers, it is not
enough.So, the idea is to create a separate release announcement landing page
to achieve the following goals:– Promote the release of PHP 8 to the PHP developers
– Promote PHP as a modern language, as well as the PHP 8 release, to
the general tech audienceAlexander Makarov, myself, and Svetlana Belozerova, a designer from
JetBrains, have created the following concept:
https://i.imgur.com/6fKmTyM.jpgWe’d like to hear from you about how you like the idea. If you support
it, we’ll finish the design and work on a PR against
github.com/php/web-php with the implementation.Looking forward to hearing what you think.
Roman Pronskiy,
PMM at JetBrains
As a developer I don't care for marketing fluff like this. What does
this provide that the migration appendices and other documentation does
not? I feel that this kind of page also has a very limited useful lifespan.
As others have commented, I'm not sure what about PHP 8 makes it any
more of a "whole new language" than many previous releases.
I would much rather see the effort be focused on ensuring the migration
guides be as complete and concise as possible whilst also ensuring other
sections of the manual are updated too (information is sometimes only
found in one or the other - ie. the migration guide is updated but the
specific manual section is not).
I would say that what might actually help drive upgrades / adoption is
promotion of tooling that helps detect and automatically update code
where possible (php-compatibility for CodeSniffer, Rector, etc).
Obviously this starts to infringe on core's ongoing insistence on not
referencing third party tools, but I feel this could possibly be solved
with something like Python's Wiki that provides a "less official" area
for community contributed content and "related content". (It need not
necessarily be a wiki - it could be, for example, something GitHub powered)
Such an area might also provide an easier to contribute to and more
easily organised and updated representation for the conferences (which,
despite being labelled "Upcoming" on the front page makes no real
distinction and still lists events from 2015 - it might also be useful
to be able to categorize / filter conferences by geographic, language or
online/offline) and talks sections of the site.
(I have talked about this before:
https://externals.io/message/107096#107101 - see also my notes on
Python's tutorial here and compare that to PHP.net's current official
tutorial, which still references XForms and has a rather lacking "what's
next" section)
I also think new releases could be a good point for reviewing existing
documentation - in some cases I feel that some sections have grown
unwieldy and hard to use (quickly find what you want) in their current
form.
An example of this would be
https://www.php.net/manual/en/language.types.array.php which is quite a
long read and has no table of contents despite having many sub-sections.
(A TOC would also help by exposing the section-specific link anchors
that already exist in the manual but are not obvious unless you use a
browser plugin that exposes them).
(It also appears to be missing information on array destructuring and
unpacking features from 7.3 and 7.4 - an example of the specific manual
sections not being updated that I mentioned earlier)
AllenJB
What helps me when I spread the word is if there is a simple page that
will look good on a retweet/FB/LinkedIn page, with a couple of release
highlights. It doesn't need to be fancy, but something that flashes a
big PHP 8.0 logo or some such as the image as part of the preview would
be quite nice.
Eliot
What helps me when I spread the word is if there is a simple page that
will look good on a retweet/FB/LinkedIn page, with a couple of release
highlights. It doesn't need to be fancy, but something that flashes a
big PHP 8.0 logo or some such as the image as part of the preview would
be quite nice.Eliot
Apropos of this... where did the PHP 8 logo come from? And is it safe to reuse elsewhere for PHP 8-related marketing without further authorization? What's the license on it and where can one get the original version? (In SVG format, because all other logo formats are wrong.)
--Larry Garfield
What helps me when I spread the word is if there is a simple page that
will look good on a retweet/FB/LinkedIn page, with a couple of release
highlights. It doesn't need to be fancy, but something that flashes a
big PHP 8.0 logo or some such as the image as part of the preview would
be quite nice.Eliot
Apropos of this... where did the PHP 8 logo come from? And is it safe to reuse elsewhere for PHP 8-related marketing without further authorization? What's the license on it and where can one get the original version? (In SVG format, because all other logo formats are wrong.)
--Larry Garfield
Logo is from Vincent Pontier:
- https://twitter.com/Elroubio/status/1300843481829703681?s=20
- https://twitter.com/Elroubio/status/1300836386518585346?s=20
You can download it at https://www.elephpant.com
He offers it for free, in the same way he offers the elePHPant logo for free. There’s no license, though.
Cheers,
Ben
What helps me when I spread the word is if there is a simple page that
will look good on a retweet/FB/LinkedIn page, with a couple of release
highlights. It doesn't need to be fancy, but something that flashes a
big PHP 8.0 logo or some such as the image as part of the preview would
be quite nice.Eliot
Apropos of this... where did the PHP 8 logo come from? And is it safe to
reuse elsewhere for PHP 8-related marketing without further authorization?
What's the license on it and where can one get the original version? (In
SVG format, because all other logo formats are wrong.)--Larry Garfield
--
To unsubscribe, visit: https://www.php.net/unsub.php
AFAIK via https://twitter.com/Elroubio/status/1300843481829703681, more
specific https://www.donnedusens.fr/dwn/logo_php_8.zip.
What helps me when I spread the word is if there is a simple page that
will look good on a retweet/FB/LinkedIn page, with a couple of release
highlights. It doesn't need to be fancy, but something that flashes a
big PHP 8.0 logo or some such as the image as part of the preview would
be quite nice.Eliot
Sure. This is important. We'll design images for social networks.
These will be linked to the page via og: meta tags.
-Roman
W/r/t the goals:
– Promote the release of PHP 8 to the PHP developers
– Promote PHP as a modern language, as well as the PHP 8 release, to the
general tech audience
The page's design does a great job of promoting PHP 8 to existing PHP
developers, but a general tech audience skeptical of PHP's modern-day
relevance is unlikely to be swayed by improvements to WordPress
performance. I'm not sure that PHP's reputation with non-PHP developers can
be improved by a splash page.
As far as php.net can help with PHP's reputation, I think a brief homepage
intro that showcased some modern-looking PHP code would be great (e.g.
typescriptlang.org, golang.org). The docs design could also be
slightly tweaked to make everything seem newer, while still keeping the
(very good) content basically the same.
Hi internals,
As far as php.net can help with PHP's reputation, I think a brief homepage
intro that showcased some modern-looking PHP code would be great (e.g.
typescriptlang.org, golang.org). The docs design could also be
slightly tweaked to make everything seem newer, while still keeping the
(very good) content basically the same.
That reminds me of an idea I had a while ago:
One of the features I've seen on many other programming
languages' documentation and tutorials was the ability to run and edit the example snippets.
It may help in understanding the content of tutorials or example snippets for functions,
- e.g. seeing what happens if code is rearranged
or how PHP handles edge cases - It also allows new developers to try out php before deciding to install it.
Right now, you can read the examples in https://www.php.net/manual/en/language.variables.scope.php
and copy them to run them locally, but you can't run them and see their output
(as plain text or html, depending on context)
Some examples in other languages:
- MDN has JavaScript demos in the browser, e.g.
https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript/Reference/Global_Objects/Array/some - Rust has https://play.rust-lang.org/ (run on the server side)
- golang has https://tour.golang.org/welcome/1 (run on the server side)
There's two main options available for testing out php in a browser right now:
- A general sandboxed php implementation hosted by the owners of php.net
(requires that it be secured and may lead to additional hosting costs),
https://3v4l.org/ (not open source https://3v4l.org/about - but similar to what I was thinking of)
or https://psalm.dev/ (open source) are projects in that area
(Matthew Brown is one of the authors of Psalm) - A WebAssembly solution, e.g. https://phan.github.io/demo/ (forked from https://oraoto.github.io/pib/)
(I'm one of the maintainers of Phan)
WebAssembly has some noticeable drawbacks such as requiring a modern browser,
requiring a large download, and requiring more RAM than an ordinary website.
Many other websites for programming languages have moved to sandboxed implementations
hosted on an actual server.
Thanks,
- Tyson
Hi internals,
As far as php.net can help with PHP's reputation, I think a brief homepage
intro that showcased some modern-looking PHP code would be great (e.g.
typescriptlang.org, golang.org). The docs design could also be
slightly tweaked to make everything seem newer, while still keeping the
(very good) content basically the same.That reminds me of an idea I had a while ago:
One of the features I've seen on many other programming
languages' documentation and tutorials was the ability to run and edit
the example snippets.
It may help in understanding the content of tutorials or example
snippets for functions,
- e.g. seeing what happens if code is rearranged
or how PHP handles edge cases- It also allows new developers to try out php before deciding to
install it.Right now, you can read the examples in
https://www.php.net/manual/en/language.variables.scope.php
and copy them to run them locally, but you can't run them and see their
output
(as plain text or html, depending on context)Some examples in other languages:
- MDN has JavaScript demos in the browser, e.g.
https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript/Reference/Global_Objects/Array/some
- Rust has https://play.rust-lang.org/ (run on the server side)
- golang has https://tour.golang.org/welcome/1 (run on the server side)
There's two main options available for testing out php in a browser right now:
- A general sandboxed php implementation hosted by the owners of php.net
(requires that it be secured and may lead to additional hosting
costs),
https://3v4l.org/ (not open source https://3v4l.org/about - but
similar to what I was thinking of)
or https://psalm.dev/ (open source) are projects in that area
(Matthew Brown is one of the authors of Psalm)- A WebAssembly solution, e.g. https://phan.github.io/demo/ (forked
from https://oraoto.github.io/pib/)
(I'm one of the maintainers of Phan)WebAssembly has some noticeable drawbacks such as requiring a modern
browser,
requiring a large download, and requiring more RAM than an ordinary
website.
Many other websites for programming languages have moved to sandboxed
implementations
hosted on an actual server.Thanks,
- Tyson
This sounds like a fantastic idea. The inline-run capability of Go and Rust's documentation is a huge win. Writing good sample code for the documentation would be an interesting challenge, but it's the sort of thing that can be done over time.
The interesting question would be how to configure it to ensure it doesn't become a security issue. We'd probably need to lock down the environment's ini settings hard to make sure it can't do any outgoing communication at all.
If we need hosting for that, I work for a hosting company and we're happy to help.
--Larry Garfield
This sounds like a fantastic idea. The inline-run capability of Go and Rust's documentation is a huge win. Writing good sample code for the documentation would be an interesting challenge, but it's the sort of thing that can be done over time.
I second this. However, then we should also make sure that the example
code actually works, and on which PHP versions. As soon as examples can
be run right from the documentation pages, the examples will be run far
more frequently than they are now, simply because it is so much easier
to do. Broken examples will cause more disappointing experiences.
I don't know if example code is currently tested automatically. If not,
adding a sandbox for running them may also offer an opportunity for
automatic testing.
Besides experimenting with example code, a sandbox may also be used to
expose runtime information. Think of generated opcodes, the JIT compiled
assembly, the AST.
At some point I can imagine adding a documentation page about
performance, optimization and JIT. That page could enable users to see
how an example code snippet is compiled, optimized and how type
inference is done. Change the code, change opcache settings and see what
happens. It is interesting to toy around with and it helps to get more
exposure to some impressive developments of recent years.
The interesting question would be how to configure it to ensure it doesn't become a security issue. We'd probably need to lock down the environment's ini settings hard to make sure it can't do any outgoing communication at all.
Trying to lock things down will also limit the example code that can be
run. And we run the risk of overlooking things. Maybe we could learn
from other languages, how they set up their sandbox environments.
If we need hosting for that, I work for a hosting company and we're happy to help.
I think we all highly appreciate that offer.
Regards,
Dik Takken
Hi internals
Regarding the matter of a sandbox, one of my colleagues open sourced a Laravel sandbox that runs straight in the browser and uses docker containers, with a little work you can extract away the Laravel part and have it run plain PHP. Here's the source: https://github.com/spatie/tinker.app https://github.com/spatie/tinker.app and here's it running: https://tinker.app/ https://tinker.app/
On topic now, regarding the promo page: this kind of marketing is where PHP lacks a little bit, so I think it's a great initiative. A simple one pager just to promote PHP, one you can share with both PHP and non-PHP developers, and teases the right amount to get some people interested. A perfect page to share on hackernews, reddit, twitter and the likes. I think it's a great first step!
Kind regards
Brent
This sounds like a fantastic idea. The inline-run capability of Go and Rust's documentation is a huge win. Writing good sample code for the documentation would be an interesting challenge, but it's the sort of thing that can be done over time.
I second this. However, then we should also make sure that the example
code actually works, and on which PHP versions. As soon as examples can
be run right from the documentation pages, the examples will be run far
more frequently than they are now, simply because it is so much easier
to do. Broken examples will cause more disappointing experiences.I don't know if example code is currently tested automatically. If not,
adding a sandbox for running them may also offer an opportunity for
automatic testing.Besides experimenting with example code, a sandbox may also be used to
expose runtime information. Think of generated opcodes, the JIT compiled
assembly, the AST.At some point I can imagine adding a documentation page about
performance, optimization and JIT. That page could enable users to see
how an example code snippet is compiled, optimized and how type
inference is done. Change the code, change opcache settings and see what
happens. It is interesting to toy around with and it helps to get more
exposure to some impressive developments of recent years.The interesting question would be how to configure it to ensure it doesn't become a security issue. We'd probably need to lock down the environment's ini settings hard to make sure it can't do any outgoing communication at all.
Trying to lock things down will also limit the example code that can be
run. And we run the risk of overlooking things. Maybe we could learn
from other languages, how they set up their sandbox environments.If we need hosting for that, I work for a hosting company and we're happy to help.
I think we all highly appreciate that offer.
Regards,
Dik Takken--
To unsubscribe, visit: https://www.php.net/unsub.php
However, then we should also make sure that the example
code actually works, and on which PHP versions. As soon as examples can
be run right from the documentation pages, the examples will be run far
more frequently than they are now, simply because it is so much easier
to do. Broken examples will cause more disappointing experiences.
Agreed 100%. I do think it should be reasonable to write a one-time doc
scanner to look for <programlisting role="php" /> and attempt to run those
in a container. It's not going to be a guarantee that the code does what
we expect, but we can probably turn it into a report of "things that
definitely don't parse" + "things that raise E_ERROR" + "things that
warn/notice, should be looked at" + "things that we hope probably work
maybe" and from there just have a prominent "report a bug about this
example" button which prefills a lot of the bugs.php.net form data and/or
maybe even avoid duplication by attaching "me too" to reports that have
already been filed for a given code snippet hash.
Bear in mind translations sometimes have unique bugs (variable names and
example content get translated too), so scanning the other languages would
be a good followup task.
TL;DR - Yes, this is work to do up front, but it's pretty clear that we can
turn this from a massive pile of wtf into a tractable problem.
I don't know if example code is currently tested automatically. If not,
adding a sandbox for running them may also offer an opportunity for
automatic testing.
It's automatically run in the brain of whoever commits the example to the
docs repository. :(
Usually this doesn't lead to any majorly broken code, but a typo here or
there is sadly not uncommon. Once in a while we get a report via
bugs.php.net and it's a quick fix, but bugs exist.
- A general sandboxed php implementation hosted
by the owners of php.net (requires that it be secured
and may lead to additional hosting costs),
https://3v4l.org/ (not open source https://3v4l.org/about -
but similar to what I was thinking of)
The simple implementation here is a "try this code" button that pops
3v4l.org open in a new tab with the code prefilled and running. That means
a conversation with the owner of 3v4l.org obviously, but potentially
doable, and probably not hard.
or https://psalm.dev/ (open source) are projects in that area
(Matthew Brown is one of the authors of Psalm)
I don't like the idea of executing that on www.php.net for a few reasons,
but someone else mentioned the possibility of donated cpu time from
somewhere that's worth a conversation.
- A WebAssembly solution, e.g. https://phan.github.io/demo/
(forked from https://oraoto.github.io/pib/) (I'm one of the maintainers
of Phan)
Honestly, I like this solution best. There are drawbacks, and we'd
probably need to suppress it in certain reference chapters (e.g. mysql,
since there's no DB to talk to), but damn if it don't feel skippy trying it
out just now. (On my admittedly well connected, beefy dev workstation)
-Sara
or https://psalm.dev/ (open source) are projects in that area
(Matthew Brown is one of the authors of Psalm)I don't like the idea of executing that on www.php.net for a few reasons,
but someone else mentioned the possibility of donated cpu time from
somewhere that's worth a conversation.
- A WebAssembly solution, e.g. https://phan.github.io/demo/
(forked from https://oraoto.github.io/pib/) (I'm one of the maintainers
of Phan)Honestly, I like this solution best. There are drawbacks, and we'd
probably need to suppress it in certain reference chapters (e.g. mysql,
since there's no DB to talk to), but damn if it don't feel skippy trying it
out just now. (On my admittedly well connected, beefy dev workstation)-Sara
I don't think Tyson was suggesting running Psalm on php.net, merely showing
it as an example of a server-based approach. Ironically I added that
server-based demo because I was so taken by the client-side one on
hacklang.org which ran a version of Hack's typechecker transpiled from the
original Ocaml (it sadly doesn't work any more).
I think the WASM solution would be great. The 2MB download would be cached
between pages, and a simple bit of JS would ensure it was only downloaded
when a user wanted an interactive mode, and only on browsers that could run
WASM.
There'd also be the novelty of a mature language ecosystem relying on a
new, hip, technology. All the kids would love it.
There's two main options available for testing out php in a browser right
now:
- A general sandboxed php implementation hosted by the owners of php.net
(requires that it be secured and may lead to additional hosting costs),
https://3v4l.org/ (not open source https://3v4l.org/about - but similar
to what I was thinking of)
or https://psalm.dev/ (open source) are projects in that area
(Matthew Brown is one of the authors of Psalm)- A WebAssembly solution, e.g. https://phan.github.io/demo/ (forked from
https://oraoto.github.io/pib/)
(I'm one of the maintainers of Phan)
Add repl.it to the list: a couple of releases behind, but works very well
in my experience for testing.
https://repl.it/languages/php_cli
On the page: a big +1 from me. PHP needs some marketing, and I would like
the content to address the objections from naysayers online who start by
saying "I haven't used PHP since PHP 4/5 and I wouldn't use it because..."
Can any firms that support PHP donate a copywriter or marketing executive
to help?
Peter
On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 1:56 AM tyson andre tysonandre775@hotmail.com
wrote:
Hi internals,
As far as php.net can help with PHP's reputation, I think a brief
homepage
intro that showcased some modern-looking PHP code would be great (e.g.
typescriptlang.org, golang.org). The docs design could also be
slightly tweaked to make everything seem newer, while still keeping the
(very good) content basically the same.That reminds me of an idea I had a while ago:
One of the features I've seen on many other programming
languages' documentation and tutorials was the ability to run and edit the
example snippets.
It may help in understanding the content of tutorials or example snippets
for functions,
- e.g. seeing what happens if code is rearranged
or how PHP handles edge cases- It also allows new developers to try out php before deciding to install
it.Right now, you can read the examples in
https://www.php.net/manual/en/language.variables.scope.php
and copy them to run them locally, but you can't run them and see their
output
(as plain text or html, depending on context)Some examples in other languages:
- MDN has JavaScript demos in the browser, e.g.
https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript/Reference/Global_Objects/Array/some
- Rust has https://play.rust-lang.org/ (run on the server side)
- golang has https://tour.golang.org/welcome/1 (run on the server side)
There's two main options available for testing out php in a browser right
now:
- A general sandboxed php implementation hosted by the owners of php.net
(requires that it be secured and may lead to additional hosting costs),
https://3v4l.org/ (not open source https://3v4l.org/about - but similar
to what I was thinking of)
or https://psalm.dev/ (open source) are projects in that area
(Matthew Brown is one of the authors of Psalm)- A WebAssembly solution, e.g. https://phan.github.io/demo/ (forked from
https://oraoto.github.io/pib/)
(I'm one of the maintainers of Phan)WebAssembly has some noticeable drawbacks such as requiring a modern
browser,
requiring a large download, and requiring more RAM than an ordinary
website.
Many other websites for programming languages have moved to sandboxed
implementations
hosted on an actual server.Thanks,
- Tyson
Sorry to step in here as this crowds out the original post too much imho,
this is really a tangential concern from Romans original post though.
Inline execution would be really awesome, but coupling this to a release
announcement to PHP 8 sets both projects up for failure imho.
To expand back to the topic, if we think Romans idea is great, then the
next steps would be to enable Roman to put this in place for the PHP 8
release. Its only 6 few weeks out, so going this backwards i would say
- October: RMs and/or php-web maintainers should give their go on the idea
(someone else?), so that more detailed creative time investment is not
going to waste. - until mid November: Roman's group of contributors have time to finalize
creative design and copywirting - until mid November Someone with access to php-web would volunteer to
guide through technical roadblocks / deployment of the release
announcement, maybe keeping it simple as a static html page for now - ~20th November: Page is rolled out with a date based feature flag?
--
To unsubscribe, visit: https://www.php.net/unsub.php
On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 9:25 AM Benjamin Eberlei kontakt@beberlei.de
wrote:
- October: RMs and/or php-web maintainers should give their go on the
idea
(someone else?), so that more detailed creative time investment is not
going to waste.
FTR they came to Gabriel and I first. Sounded like a neat idea to both
of us, but I explicitly deferred them to internals@lists.php.net* as that's
not up to whoever happens to be RM for that release. It's something for all
of us to agree (or disagree) on.
Also note that anything related to the websites belong to the
php-webmaster@ mailing list, not internals and I would highly
recommend moving the thread there.
I sent them here rather than php-webmaster@ because that list is noisier
than a Rhino in a wind chime factory. You might well have been the only
person to notice it had it gone there.
On the rest of your response, I agree. PHP has long held neutrality and
there's no good reason to start playing favorites now. That said, I think
it might be reasonable to invite any (or perhaps, "any with at least X
many Ys" -- criteria TBD) framework/app/project to provide their own stats
(relative changes only, no claims on absolute "speed" relative to each
other). We already allow conferences to submit NEWS items that go on the
front page. Inviting claims (with disclaimers?) from PHP adjacent projects
isn't a massive leap from there.
As for the "community leaders" section... I hadn't even noticed that on
first review. The name of that is even a little gross and presumptive.
I'd probably just toss that one out. With projects, we can at the very
least put a requirement that it must be FOSS. That doesn't work in this
section nearly so well.
-Sara
Hi folks,
Thank you all for the feedback. Here is a quick recap of where the
matter stands.
-
It seems there’s a consensus that it would be great if the PHP 8
release had a nice sharable release announcement page. But we need to
keep neutrality.
We’ll update the concept to remove potentially biased blocks. -
Some have noted that these changes are unlikely to magically change
PHP’s reputation.
Agree. The goal is to spread the word about the release and the
features it brings. -
There is an agreement that it would be great to work further on
improving the php.net homepage and documentation.
This one is beyond the present scope, and we can discuss it in a
separate thread. It also intersects with the PHP Community Synergy
Initiative [1] started by Christoph Rumpel and Paul Dragoonis. So it
makes sense to consolidate these efforts.
We are going to continue the work on design and copywriting. And start
with POC in github.com/php/php-web. I’ll keep posting significant
updates on the progress in this thread.
-Roman
[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/PHP/comments/ivpfcf/php_community_synergy_initiative/
Hi Roman,
On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 9:57 AM Roman Pronskiy roman.pronskiy@jetbrains.com
wrote:
Hello Internals,
The PHP 8 release is going to be huge, and in some sense, you could
say it's a whole new language. There is a feeling that more can be
done to promote it more extensively.Usually for releases, there’s a short text announcement on php.net.
This may be okay for minor releases and for people who are deeply
involved in PHP as they already know about the new features. But for
the majority of PHP developers and potential PHP developers, it is not
enough.So, the idea is to create a separate release announcement landing page
to achieve the following goals:– Promote the release of PHP 8 to the PHP developers
– Promote PHP as a modern language, as well as the PHP 8 release, to
the general tech audienceAlexander Makarov, myself, and Svetlana Belozerova, a designer from
JetBrains, have created the following concept:
https://i.imgur.com/6fKmTyM.jpgWe’d like to hear from you about how you like the idea. If you support
it, we’ll finish the design and work on a PR against
github.com/php/web-php with the implementation.Looking forward to hearing what you think.
i love the idea!
Honestly in my opinion, the actual content itself and what is or what is
not on the page is not so important, this kind of release announcement post
is mostly about the signal effect to the outside world that there is a
force behind PHP that goes beyond "a few people tinkering on a programming
language" (to be hyperbolic). As such I think we should just do it and not
bikeshed over the content, or if this marketing speaks to old or new users
or what does. If the overall message is along the lines is "PHP gets faster
again, PHP gets more awesome features again, PHP is alive and kicking" then
this is a huge win :-)
Roman Pronskiy,
PMM at JetBrains--
To unsubscribe, visit: https://www.php.net/unsub.php
Hi Roman,
I 100% agree with what Benjamin has just written. Marketing PHP as a
modern, thriving
programming language which (mostly) left its dark past behind is very much
needed.
That said, I'm very grateful for this idea, so thank you! I like the design
as well:
it's informative, looks clean, and fits php.net very well.
Regards:
Máté
Hi
Den man. 12. okt. 2020 kl. 10.57 skrev Roman Pronskiy
roman.pronskiy@jetbrains.com:
The concept looks great, however in the current state, it cannot go in
like that which mainly comes down to neutrality.
- This means we cannot display projects such as Symfony, Laravel and
WordPress at the top.Sure they are popular, but we cannot promote
them. - At the same time we cannot have the community leaders section and
potentially not the one beneath that, again this comes down to
neutrality and not to show any sort of favoritism. Note we do not link
to Core Developer blogs or anything like that, the closet you would
get to that is people.php.net, and even that is limited.
This basically means that at best, this page can be a glorified
migration page with code examples and new features presented in a long
page style layout (unlike the sectioned multi page style that the
manual traditionally has), which I would be perfectly fine with and
accept if posted as a PR for php-web on Github. Personal side note
here: I would prefer to keep the written language similar to existing
style on PHP.net for consistency, the "overselling" part is personally
a bit too much for me, and more something I would expect to read on
pages like Zend.com that has a business gain for getting users on PHP8
or whatnot, however not a deal-breaker for me.
However the most important thing I see here is to actually begin
documenting these features, as linking to their RFCs, is not the way
we should document features. I'm currently not aware of what the
status is on that, but given the last few versions of PHP, we are
probably far from a state where PHP8 is broadly available in the
manual. This naturally is not a blocker for this project, but a
consideration.
Also note that anything related to the websites belong to the
php-webmaster@ mailing list, not internals and I would highly
recommend moving the thread there.
--
regards,
Kalle Sommer Nielsen
kalle@php.net
Hi
Den man. 12. okt. 2020 kl. 10.57 skrev Roman Pronskiy
roman.pronskiy@jetbrains.com:The concept looks great, however in the current state, it cannot go in
like that which mainly comes down to neutrality.
- This means we cannot display projects such as Symfony, Laravel and
WordPress at the top.Sure they are popular, but we cannot promote
them.- At the same time we cannot have the community leaders section and
potentially not the one beneath that, again this comes down to
neutrality and not to show any sort of favoritism. Note we do not link
to Core Developer blogs or anything like that, the closet you would
get to that is people.php.net, and even that is limited.
If there’s interest in turning this into a community project outside
the official PHP project, I’d be interested in helping coordinate the
efforts, in addition to the use of the domain gophp8.dev and hosting.
This way, the PHP project can maintain its neutrality, while the
community can iterate quickly on promoting the release of PHP 8.
Cheers,
Ben
If there’s interest in turning this into a community project outside
the official PHP project, I’d be interested in helping coordinate the
efforts, in addition to the use of the domain gophp8.dev and hosting.This way, the PHP project can maintain its neutrality, while the
community can iterate quickly on promoting the release of PHP 8.Cheers,
Ben
Oh, you snagged that one, eh? :-) I also have gophp.[org|me|info] available if we want to do something with them.
--Larry Garfield
If there’s interest in turning this into a community project outside
the official PHP project, I’d be interested in helping coordinate the
efforts, in addition to the use of the domain gophp8.dev and hosting.This way, the PHP project can maintain its neutrality, while the
community can iterate quickly on promoting the release of PHP 8.Cheers,
BenOh, you snagged that one, eh? :-) I also have gophp.[org|me|info] available if we want to do something with them.
I personally don’t own it, but it’s available for use to the community,
if it wants it. :-)
Cheers,
Ben
On Mon, 12 Oct 2020 at 09:57, Roman Pronskiy roman.pronskiy@jetbrains.com
wrote:
Hello Internals,
The PHP 8 release is going to be huge, and in some sense, you could
say it's a whole new language. There is a feeling that more can be
done to promote it more extensively.Usually for releases, there’s a short text announcement on php.net.
This may be okay for minor releases and for people who are deeply
involved in PHP as they already know about the new features. But for
the majority of PHP developers and potential PHP developers, it is not
enough.So, the idea is to create a separate release announcement landing page
to achieve the following goals:– Promote the release of PHP 8 to the PHP developers
– Promote PHP as a modern language, as well as the PHP 8 release, to
the general tech audienceAlexander Makarov, myself, and Svetlana Belozerova, a designer from
JetBrains, have created the following concept:
https://i.imgur.com/6fKmTyM.jpgWe’d like to hear from you about how you like the idea. If you support
it, we’ll finish the design and work on a PR against
github.com/php/web-php with the implementation.Looking forward to hearing what you think.
Roman Pronskiy,
PMM at JetBrains--
To unsubscribe, visit: https://www.php.net/unsub.php
Roman,
One question that I've received from a couple of communities about this
proposal: can we have translations of this page? Portuguese, French,
Russian, etc.
Best,
-- Gabriel Caruso
On Fri, Oct 16, 2020 at 1:51 AM Gabriel Caruso
carusogabriel34@gmail.com wrote:
Roman,
One question that I've received from a couple of communities about this proposal: can we have translations of this page? Portuguese, French, Russian, etc.
From a technical perspective, I assume it should be possible to reuse
php.net/manual/ mechanism for translations.
As for the texts, the only way we can finish translations by November
26 is if we get community help. Because JetBrains localization
resources will be overwhelmed during this period. Alexander and I can
do Russian. Do you think we can get help with other languages?
-Roman
Hi there!
I'm also ready to help with Russian translation
wbr,
Sergey Panteleev
From a technical perspective, I assume it should be possible to reuse
php.net/manual/ mechanism for translations.As for the texts, the only way we can finish translations by November
26 is if we get community help. Because JetBrains localization
resources will be overwhelmed during this period. Alexander and I can
do Russian. Do you think we can get help with other languages?
I can handle the French one if you need someone.
Just send me the texts!
— Benjamin
On Mon, 19 Oct 2020 at 15:59, Sergey Panteleev sergey@s-panteleev.ru
wrote:
Hi there!
I'm also ready to help with Russian translation
wbr,
Sergey Panteleev
On 19 Oct 2020, 16:54 +0300, Roman Pronskiy roman.pronskiy@jetbrains.com,
wrote:From a technical perspective, I assume it should be possible to reuse
php.net/manual/ mechanism for translations.As for the texts, the only way we can finish translations by November
26 is if we get community help. Because JetBrains localization
resources will be overwhelmed during this period. Alexander and I can
do Russian. Do you think we can get help with other languages?
On Mon, 19 Oct 2020 at 15:54, Roman Pronskiy roman.pronskiy@jetbrains.com
wrote:
On Fri, Oct 16, 2020 at 1:51 AM Gabriel Caruso
carusogabriel34@gmail.com wrote:Roman,
One question that I've received from a couple of communities about this
proposal: can we have translations of this page? Portuguese, French,
Russian, etc.From a technical perspective, I assume it should be possible to reuse
php.net/manual/ mechanism for translations.As for the texts, the only way we can finish translations by November
26 is if we get community help. Because JetBrains localization
resources will be overwhelmed during this period. Alexander and I can
do Russian. Do you think we can get help with other languages?-Roman
I can handle the Brazilian Portuguese one, send me the texts!
Folks,
The PR with the page implementation is almost ready [1]. There a few
things left, but comments are very welcome.
It has a Russian version as an example of a translated page [2]. If
you'd like to help with translating to other languages, please create
PR against [3].
[1] https://github.com/php/web-php/pull/350
[2] https://github.com/php/web-php/pull/350/files#diff-9bdd4a209e79dd6699e189feb42fe7edd97402331ab4d4078d84dbd01df239e2
[3] https://github.com/naruzl/web-php/tree/JS-13812-develop-markup-for-php-8-announcement
- Roman Pronskiy