Censorship in php

10 years ago by Kalle Sommer Nielsen — view source

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2013/12/21 Lester Caine lester@lsces.co.uk:

I know I will get my head chewed off, but I'm going to speak out anyway ...

I don't see how this is internals related, the webmaster list is more
the place to go for this, so I would say thats the first reason why
you might feel like your head gets chewed off

--
regards,

Kalle Sommer Nielsen
kalle@php.net

10 years ago by Ferenc Kovacs — view source

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2013/12/21 Lester Caine lester@lsces.co.uk:

I know I will get my head chewed off, but I'm going to speak out anyway
...

I don't see how this is internals related, the webmaster list is more
the place to go for this, so I would say thats the first reason why
you might feel like your head gets chewed off

--
regards,

Kalle Sommer Nielsen
kalle@php.net

--

Yeah, and usually changes discussed on that list(php-webmaster@lists.php.net),
and sometimes on irc (#php.doc channel on efnet network).
Lester, if you have objections or feedback about the web related changes,
please use the correct channels for discussing/reporting them.

--
Ferenc Kovács
@Tyr43l - http://tyrael.hu

10 years ago by Lester Caine — view source

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Kalle Sommer Nielsen wrote:

2013/12/21 Lester Cainelester@lsces.co.uk:

I know I will get my head chewed off, but I'm going to speak out anyway ...
I don't see how this is internals related, the webmaster list is more
the place to go for this, so I would say thats the first reason why
you might feel like your head gets chewed off

That is perhaps part of the problem? With the increasing number of lists and the
vast escalation in work being done, there is not a single location where an
overview can be obtained - now even on the website! Add external projects that
are now being used as part of the core standards and things get even more
confusing. Surely this is the core of the project and needs some control on how
the project as a whole moves forward?

--
Lester Caine - G8HFL

Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk

10 years ago by Ronald Chmara — view source

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Kalle Sommer Nielsen wrote:

2013/12/21 Lester Cainelester@lsces.co.uk:

I know I will get my head chewed off, but I'm going to speak out anyway
...

I don't see how this is internals related, the webmaster list is more
the place to go for this, so I would say thats the first reason why
you might feel like your head gets chewed off

That is perhaps part of the problem? With the increasing number of lists
and the vast escalation in work being done, there is not a single location
where an overview can be obtained - now even on the website! Add external
projects that are now being used as part of the core standards and things
get even more confusing. Surely this is the core of the project and needs
some control on how the project as a whole moves forward?

I am pretty sure that presentation on a website has almost nothing to do
with the core of a language. Perhaps you might consider lurking on more of
the lists, to determine appropriate topics for appropriate locations. There
isn't a "single location" where an overview of it all can be obtained, PHP
is too big for that.

-Ronabop

10 years ago by Levi Morrison — view source

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The webmaster list has been around for a while; it's not a new list by any
means...

10 years ago by Lester Caine — view source

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Levi Morrison wrote:

The webmaster list has been around for a while; it's not a new list by any means...

If the discussion was on the webmaster list then fine. But currently the website
is promoting a new venue for discussion not hosted by php.net as far as I can
tell with no linkage back to the project at all? It requires a separate login
and it's the control and administration of this which I am questioning. Like
composer and php-fig it seems that the core project is happy to let others take
control of what I consider fundamental development decisions and then drive
developments within the project to better match that view of forward development.

I will ask once again that PHP5.6 is shelved in favour of PHP6 to allow those of
us who were happy with the stability that PHP used to provide to stabilise it
once again with a version that we at least stand a chance of catching up with.

Since the general feeling here seems to be that if someone is willing to promote
their own pet project then so be it, perhaps now is the time to take advantage
of DVCS and start promoting a 'simple PHP' project based on a time before
'e_strict' ... I still have sites that need reworking before they can be used on
more modern PHP installations safely, so the suggestion that I should be
monitoring even more lists does not go down well!

--
Lester Caine - G8HFL

Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk

10 years ago by Rowan Collins — view source

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Lester Caine wrote (on 22/12/2013):

But currently the website is promoting a new venue for discussion not
hosted by php.net as far as I can tell with no linkage back to the
project at all? It requires a separate login and it's the control and
administration of this which I am questioning.

I think the idea is that the feedback area doesn't require any login at
all, and is not really for co-ordination and planning, just gathering
feedback. There are many many people who use the php.net website who
would never think to sign up to a co-ordination list or file a bug, so
it's a useful way of getting their opinions.

Looking at the open tickets yesterday, it seems to be gathering a range
of opinions, both positive and negative.

Like composer and php-fig it seems that the core project is happy to
let others take control of what I consider fundamental development
decisions

PHP is a programming language, not a framework, and that distinction is
not new or unique to PHP. Composer is a package management tool, and
php-fig is a set of coding standards; neither touch on the language
itself, so for the core developers of the language to presume control of
them would be unnecessary to the point of arrogance.

The php.net website is, obviously, fairly central to the language, but
its design is hardly in the same category as, say, whether PHP should
have a ** operator, so having a separate team with different expertise
managing it makes perfect sense.

Regards,

Rowan Collins
[IMSoP]

10 years ago by Joe Watkins — view source

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Levi Morrison wrote:

The webmaster list has been around for a while; it's not a new list by
any means...

If the discussion was on the webmaster list then fine. But currently the
website is promoting a new venue for discussion not hosted by php.net as
far as I can tell with no linkage back to the project at all? It
requires a separate login and it's the control and administration of
this which I am questioning. Like composer and php-fig it seems that the
core project is happy to let others take control of what I consider
fundamental development decisions and then drive developments within the
project to better match that view of forward development.

I will ask once again that PHP5.6 is shelved in favour of PHP6 to allow
those of us who were happy with the stability that PHP used to provide
to stabilise it once again with a version that we at least stand a
chance of catching up with.

Since the general feeling here seems to be that if someone is willing to
promote their own pet project then so be it, perhaps now is the time to
take advantage of DVCS and start promoting a 'simple PHP' project based
on a time before 'e_strict' ... I still have sites that need reworking
before they can be used on more modern PHP installations safely, so the
suggestion that I should be monitoring even more lists does not go down
well!

Morning Lester,

Nobody is going to halt the progress of _anything_ because of a single

voice; you are a single voice. The rest of the community want for PHP to
move forward, toward stability of course (not that I'm aware of any
particular instability), but while gathering worth while features -
noteworthy: it's pretty much always been like that, nothing has changed.

I dunno what your beef is, I'm sure it cannot be about the number of

mailing lists you have to monitor ... but it would seem that rather than
spending time on mailing lists complaining about the way things are, you
could get involved, you could do any of the things you are saying are
good ideas, and in your mind at least, you'd be making progress.

In short, spending time on mailing lists, talking about feelings,

doesn't seem to be a very good use of anyone's time, so I'd ask that you
shelve this conversation, and let us all get on with what we're doing
... and by all means, get involved yourself, don't stand at the
sidelines shouting "ref, you're doing it wrong" ...

Cheers
Joe

10 years ago by Rowan Collins — view source

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I know I will get my head chewed off, but I'm going to speak out
anyway ...

Hi Lester,

Rather than accepting a negative reaction as inevitable, perhaps you
should think how you can improve your chances of a positive engagement.
The PHP website links to a few "house rules" for these mailing lists
[1], but beyond that a few things occur to me that would have improved
your post (at least in my personal opinion):

Don't use inflammatory language. "Censorship" is a very loaded term,
and using it too readily may well put people on the defensive, or create
unnecessary controversy. (perhaps see also Rule 2: "Do not post when you
are angry.")
Pick an accurate subject/title for your post. Your points were
specifically about the new layout on the php.net website, but your
subject line gives no clue to that.
Be clear on what point you are trying to discuss, and don't try to
discuss several things at once. Part of your message is about a problem
with the new php.net layout, but part is about the process of reporting
that problem; it's not at all clear which you are expecting to be discussed.
Ask in the right place (see Rule 2: "Make sure you pick the right
mailinglist for your posting."). There is a list of all the PHP mailing
lists with descriptions [2] and you can click through to see the
archives to get a feel for the topics discussed on each. If you're not
sure of the right list, be honest and ready for someone to point you in
the right direction.
Don't jump to accuse others (see Rule 1: "Respect other people working
on the project."). You accuse "all these little cliques" of "dump[ing]
the results on us" because you haven't seen the discussion which went
into the layout change, but you give no details of where you looked for
that discussion or where you expected it to take place.
Request improvements, don't demand them. Rather than saying that the
current situation is "unacceptable", explain where you think the problem
lies and the kind of things you would like to see to improve it.
Look for solutions as well as stating problems. You might not know an
exact solution, but you could say what you think a better solution might
look like - beyond a broad statement that the old layout worked better
for you.
Be open to compromise. Others may have different opinions, or there
may be technical impediments to what you would like to see. Compromise
here might be in the form of multiple "themes", as you suggest, but that
tends to have technical costs, so attempting to incorporate different
ideas into one layout will always be preferable.

In short, as the Wikipedia guidelines put it "Assume Good Faith" -
approach mailing lists, forums, etc with the assumption that people will
want to understand your concerns, and work with you to solve them, and
you are more likely to find that assumption come true.

[1]
http://git.php.net/?p=php-src.git;a=blob_plain;f=README.MAILINGLIST_RULES;hb=HEAD
[2] http://www.php.net/mailing-lists.php

Regards,

--
Rowan Collins
[IMSoP]

10 years ago by Helmut Tessarek — view source

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Rather than accepting a negative reaction as inevitable, perhaps you should
think how you can improve your chances of a positive engagement. The PHP
website links to a few "house rules" for these mailing lists [1], but beyond
that a few things occur to me that would have improved your post (at least in
my personal opinion):

Are you serious? Now I really have to speak out as well.

People in this list talk down to anybody who is not in their inner circle.
Very often you get condescending replies and good ideas are pushed aside,
because not in the interest of the core developers.

It's not the first time that I heard and read that 'we can't do that, because
it would break thousands of apps' (just an example).
This is interesting, because Ruby, Python and Perl can do such stuff.
For sake of backwards compatibility PHP keeps certain misbehavioral
properties, which actually happens to make PHP an inconsistent language.
Unless you know exactly every settings and every function, you cannot
predict what PHP might do.
Any discussion regarding this topic always comes to this point: we have to
live with it.

A lot of constructive feedback gets ignored because people in this list think
it has a negative tone, while using condescending language on their side.

A little bit of double standards, don't you think?

--
regards Helmut K. C. Tessarek
lookup http://sks.pkqs.net for KeyID 0xC11F128D

/*
Thou shalt not follow the NULL pointer for chaos and madness
await thee at its end.
*/

10 years ago by Rowan Collins — view source

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A lot of constructive feedback gets ignored because people in this list think
it has a negative tone, while using condescending language on their side.

That may be, but it's not an excuse to start a thread with accusations
and emotive language, rather than at least trying to give the
constructive feedback on its own merits. I realise that I am making a
judgement about Lester's tone, but it's hard to see words like
"censorship" and "clique" as an invitation to calm discussion.

My own biggest flaw is that I tend to be over-verbose, so my posts
probably end up reading like rants when I am actually trying to
contribute to the conversation. I apologise if that was the case here,
and I will try to refine my points more succinctly in future.

Regards,

--
Rowan Collins
[IMSoP]

10 years ago by Ronald Chmara — view source

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On Sat, Dec 21, 2013 at 3:14 PM, Helmut Tessarek tessarek@evermeet.cxwrote:

Rather than accepting a negative reaction as inevitable, perhaps you
should
think how you can improve your chances of a positive engagement. The PHP
website links to a few "house rules" for these mailing lists [1], but
beyond
that a few things occur to me that would have improved your post (at
least in
my personal opinion):

Are you serious? Now I really have to speak out as well.

People in this list talk down to anybody who is not in their inner circle.

Whose? Which one? I've been reading and writing to this list, off and on,
for 13 years, and while my opinion does not always carry as much weight as
others, I've found that it's a meritocracy. I have seen many "nobodies"
become very respected in the larger community, based on their efforts in
that time, and even more respected in their working areas.

Very often you get condescending replies and good ideas are pushed aside,
because not in the interest of the core developers.

Working code wins, always. Whining developers who do not write code for
their ideas lose.

It's not the first time that I heard and read that 'we can't do that,
because
it would break thousands of apps' (just an example).

Thousands? No, many, many, millions. If you break PHP, you break Yahoo,
Wikipedia, Wordpress, Facebook.... many millions of sites. Maybe billions
at this point.

This is interesting, because Ruby, Python and Perl can do such stuff.

Because they all don't do anywhere near the same amount of sites. They are
but drops in the bucket.

For sake of backwards compatibility PHP keeps certain misbehavioral
properties, which actually happens to make PHP an inconsistent language.

If you are looking for a language without backwards compatibility, that
runs most of the internet, I suggest you try to write a new language.

I do not suggest you ever try to improve it, but that you get it perfect,
the first time. Good luck.

Unless you know exactly every settings and every function, you cannot
predict what PHP might do.

So, unless you are fluent in a language, you cannot accurately predict what
you are saying? This is your argument against it?

(setting should have been singular, not plural, in your argument, BTW)

You might as well argue that czeck is inherently bad if it's hard for
english language people to learn. Or vice versa.

Any discussion regarding this topic always comes to this point: we have to
live with it.

Welcome to the internet's dominant programming language. Fork it if you
want. Crashing a third or half of the internet for a pet feature or change
is not an option.

A lot of constructive feedback gets ignored because people in this list
think
it has a negative tone, while using condescending language on their side.

Complaining is not code. It is not constructive.

A little bit of double standards, don't you think?

Code always wins. Whining about code, or giving "feedback" on code, doesn't
win.

-Ronabop

10 years ago by Kris Craig — view source

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Thousands? No, many, many, millions. If you break PHP, you break Yahoo,
Wikipedia, Wordpress, Facebook.... many millions of sites. Maybe billions
at this point.

I don't think he's saying we should "break" PHP. I think he's saying that
we tend to be overly worried about maintaining BC even on bad
functionality, an assessment that I agree with. Maintaining BC religiously
on minor increments is understandable. Breaking BC on a major release
increment is not only ok, I would say it's even expected. Also keep in
mind that big-timers like Facebook and Yahoo! aren't going to blindly
upgrade to the latest version without first making sure their code is up to
current standards (which they should be doing, anyway).

Relevant: http://xkcd.com/1172/

--Kris

10 years ago by Helmut Tessarek — view source

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I don't think he's saying we should "break" PHP. I think he's saying that
we tend to be overly worried about maintaining BC even on bad
functionality, an assessment that I agree with. Maintaining BC religiously
on minor increments is understandable. Breaking BC on a major release
increment is not only ok, I would say it's even expected. Also keep in
mind that big-timers like Facebook and Yahoo! aren't going to blindly
upgrade to the latest version without first making sure their code is up to
current standards (which they should be doing, anyway).

+1

Relevant: http://xkcd.com/1172/

+1

--
regards Helmut K. C. Tessarek
lookup http://sks.pkqs.net for KeyID 0xC11F128D

/*
Thou shalt not follow the NULL pointer for chaos and madness
await thee at its end.
*/

10 years ago by Helmut Tessarek — view source

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Working code wins, always. Whining developers who do not write code for
their ideas lose.

You so prove my point.

Just because I write code, does not mean it makes it into the product.

Thousands? No, many, many, millions. If you break PHP, you break Yahoo,
Wikipedia, Wordpress, Facebook.... many millions of sites. Maybe billions
at this point.

But changing default behavior does not break things? But this seems to be ok -
at least sometimes. So there are acceptable changes that break millions of
sites and then there are others.

If you are looking for a language without backwards compatibility, that
runs most of the internet, I suggest you try to write a new language.

There are many ways to accomplish this task. One would be to create new
functions while the old still exist, use DEPRECATED and WARNING in the log and
gradually phase them out. This gives them time to change their code.

Unless you know exactly every settings and every function, you cannot
predict what PHP might do.
So, unless you are fluent in a language, you cannot accurately predict what
you are saying? This is your argument against it?

I'm saying that PHP's behavior and functions are inconsistent.
Some functions have a certain order for their arguments, others have them
reversed (I know, this is rather a stupid example).
Return values are inconsistent: -1, NULLS, exceptions, ... All of them make
sense, but they should be used consistently across the board.
But theses are just a few examples

(setting should have been singular, not plural, in your argument, BTW)

Thanks, I wrote 'all' first and replaced it with 'exactly every' and forgot to
remove the s at the end. What's your excuse for misspelling czech?

Welcome to the internet's dominant programming language. Fork it if you
want. Crashing a third or half of the internet for a pet feature or change
is not an option.

I'm not talking about a pet feature, but the consistency of the language.

Complaining is not code. It is not constructive.

Condescending language and behavior is not constructive either.

Code always wins. Whining about code, or giving "feedback" on code, doesn't
win.

No, it doesn't. Only, iff it makes it into the product.

--
regards Helmut K. C. Tessarek
lookup http://sks.pkqs.net for KeyID 0xC11F128D

/*
Thou shalt not follow the NULL pointer for chaos and madness
await thee at its end.
*/

10 years ago by Lester Caine — view source

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Helmut Tessarek wrote:

Thousands? No, many, many, millions. If you break PHP, you break Yahoo,

Wikipedia, Wordpress, Facebook.... many millions of sites. Maybe billions
at this point.
But changing default behavior does not break things? But this seems to be ok -
at least sometimes. So there are acceptable changes that break millions of
sites and then there are others.

How many of the big sites are actually using a stock build of PHP? I'm not
talking about the privately run wordpress and jumla copies, but the core
websites themselves? They forked PHP a long time ago?

I have complained in the past and been shouted down over the fact that while
'yes' one can configure a PHP5.4 installation to run PHP5.2 code, there is a
much higher chance that it will simply give you a white screen. I'm not
currently running 5.5 ... there are not enough hours in the day! But I believe
that many of you now understand that anything not rewritten to be e_strict
complaint can't safely be left on a modern PHP infrastructure? Ploughing on
blindly ignoring or suppressing 'opposing' views is the censorship I am talking
about. Be that on the main php.net controlled sites or on the newly promoted
third party ones!

Where is the roadmap for PHP controlled from? It seems at present that there is
simply no control at all over how the project is managed.

--
Lester Caine - G8HFL

Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk

10 years ago by Ferenc Kovacs — view source

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2013.12.22. 11:05, "Lester Caine" lester@lsces.co.uk ezt írta:

Helmut Tessarek wrote:

Thousands? No, many, many, millions. If you break PHP, you break Yahoo,

Wikipedia, Wordpress, Facebook.... many millions of sites. Maybe
billions
at this point.

But changing default behavior does not break things? But this seems to
be ok -
at least sometimes. So there are acceptable changes that break millions
of
sites and then there are others.

How many of the big sites are actually using a stock build of PHP? I'm
not talking about the privately run wordpress and jumla copies, but the
core websites themselves? They forked PHP a long time ago?

I have complained in the past and been shouted down over the fact that
while 'yes' one can configure a PHP5.4 installation to run PHP5.2 code,
there is a much higher chance that it will simply give you a white screen.
I'm not currently running 5.5 ... there are not enough hours in the day!
But I believe that many of you now understand that anything not rewritten
to be e_strict complaint can't safely be left on a modern PHP
infrastructure? Ploughing on blindly ignoring or suppressing 'opposing'
views is the censorship I am talking about. Be that on the main
php.netcontrolled sites or on the newly promoted third party ones!

Where is the roadmap for PHP controlled from? It seems at present that
there is simply no control at all over how the project is managed.

--
Lester Caine - G8HFL

Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk

--

For me it seems that you used the new php.net design as an excuse to bring
up like the 100th time that how php is broken and should stop evolving so
you have an easier time to maintaind your old code.

Ofc. this is one use-case (and the reason why we care about BC so much),
but this has nothing to do with the fact that some people put a bunch of
work into a new modern php.net design or that they added that uservoice
widget to have an easier way to get feedback from the visitors.

Imo the fact, that through this years you are still here and you are free
to repeat the same arguments (which you seem to be the minority on the
list) shows that we don't do censorship.

I think if there would be enough interest/need of an old but security
backported php fork, it would already exists.
If you really need that, your best bet would be picking a distro with long
support cycle(rhel comes to mind) or starting the fork yourself.
But don't forget that the new versions aren't just bells and whistles but
there are a bunch of bugfixes and performance improvements, and some of
those can't be done without breaking BC, so new versions and the need of
manual review would exists even if we would have stopped adding new
features.

10 years ago by Lester Caine — view source

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Ferenc Kovacs wrote:

I think if there would be enough interest/need of an old but security backported
php fork, it would already exists.

http://w3techs.com/technologies/details/pl-php/5/all

It does ... but it needs proper support to ensure that the important security
issues do get addressed in PHP5.3 and 5.2 ...

--
Lester Caine - G8HFL

Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk

10 years ago by Ferenc Kovacs — view source

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2013.12.22. 11:34, "Lester Caine" lester@lsces.co.uk ezt írta:

Ferenc Kovacs wrote:

I think if there would be enough interest/need of an old but security
backported
php fork, it would already exists.

http://w3techs.com/technologies/details/pl-php/5/all

It does ... but it needs proper support to ensure that the important
security issues do get addressed in PHP5.3 and 5.2 ...

So it doesn't?
As I mentioned some distros offer longer support cycle for their packages,
but some of those numbers are from hosts which doesn't upgrade at
all(running on EOLed distro releases), and there isn't much we can do about
that except that we try to offer an upgrade path with the least PITA.

10 years ago by David Soria Parra — view source

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Lester Caine lester@lsces.co.uk schrieb:

I know I will get my head chewed off, but I'm going to speak out anyway ...

In a world where 'fixed width' web style is pushed as the standard, the PHP site
has always been a breath of fresh air with it's full width style. It used to
work nicely on wide format monitors which I'm sure many of you use on your
development systems. If the 'change of style' has been discussed anywhere, I've
not seen that discussion but that is not unusual nowadays as all these little
cliques seem to work off-line and then dump the results on us. The new
'feedback' area seems to be hosted elsewhere anyway?

The 'style' of having voting only FOR something without the ability to object,
and the blocking of the alternate view is simply not acceptable. How many votes
would 'hate it' get if it was not blocked?

But what is even more irritating here is the fact that we have the technology to
provide all of the flexibility for both styles of working to co-exist. That is
what PHP is all about, so why when all of the content is dynamic anyway do we
have to live with what is perceived by a few as better. Currently I'm having
problems with something which was never a problem ... changing between
sub-domains also needs a change of font size to make the site usable on my
3840x1200 desktop.

PLEASE can we have 'theme' as a selection in the same way that 'language' can be
changed. This is simply a lot more practical than the attempt to create a
'responsive' style that is a compromise on virtually all desktops :(

Your constant complains have been noticed. Please refer to the right
mailinglist with the right attitude. In addition to that I highly
recommend sending patches over constant ranting and keeping away people
from doing actual work. Communities like PHP are here to WORK together
on a problem and the people who work on it (or any surrounding noteable
projects) discuss it. If you don't have anything to contribute write a
blog entry about it, but internal is not the right place for you rants. I
am not sure if I have to get any clearer about that. Thank you.

10 years ago by Yasuo Ohgaki — view source

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Hi Lester,

Currently I'm having problems with something which was never a problem ...
changing between sub-domains also needs a change of font size to make the
site usable on my 3840x1200 desktop.

How about give us screenshot of your desktop?
It would help us to discuss constructively.

It also helps if you present issues w/o your feelings.
Keeping it simple and precise would help.

Regards,

--
Yasuo Ohgaki
yohgaki@ohgaki.net

-- Lester Caine - G8HFL

-- Lester Caine - G8HFL

-- Lester Caine - G8HFL

Regards,

-- Lester Caine - G8HFL

-- Lester Caine - G8HFL

-- Lester Caine - G8HFL

--
Lester Caine - G8HFL

--
Lester Caine - G8HFL

--
Lester Caine - G8HFL

--
Lester Caine - G8HFL

--
Lester Caine - G8HFL

--
Lester Caine - G8HFL