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Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2013 16:58:42 -0800
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To: Helmut Tessarek <tessarek@evermeet.cx>
Cc: Rowan Collins <rowan.collins@gmail.com>, internals <internals@lists.php.net>
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Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Censorship in php
From: ronabop@gmail.com (Ronald Chmara)

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On Sat, Dec 21, 2013 at 3:14 PM, Helmut Tessarek <tessarek@evermeet.cx>wrote:

> On 21.12.13 17:33 , Rowan Collins wrote:
> > Rather than accepting a negative reaction as inevitable, perhaps you
> should
> > think how you can improve your chances of a positive engagement. The PHP
> > website links to a few "house rules" for these mailing lists [1], but
> beyond
> > that a few things occur to me that would have improved your post (at
> least in
> > my personal opinion):
>
> Are you serious? Now I really have to speak out as well.
>
> People in this list talk down to anybody who is not in their inner circle.
>

Whose? Which one? I've been reading and writing to this list, off and on,
for 13 years, and while my opinion does not always carry as much weight as
others, I've found that it's a meritocracy. I have seen *many* "nobodies"
become very respected in the larger community, based on their efforts in
that time, and even more respected in their working areas.


> Very often you get condescending replies and good ideas are pushed aside,
> because not in the interest of the core developers.
>

Working code wins, always. Whining developers who do not write code for
their ideas lose.


> It's not the first time that I heard and read that 'we can't do that,
> because
> it would break thousands of apps' (just an example).
>

Thousands? No, many, many, millions. If you break PHP, you break Yahoo,
Wikipedia, Wordpress, Facebook.... many millions of sites. Maybe billions
at this point.


> This is interesting, because Ruby, Python and Perl can do such stuff.
>

Because they all don't do anywhere near the same amount of sites. They are
but drops in the bucket.


> For sake of backwards compatibility PHP keeps certain misbehavioral
> properties, which actually happens to make PHP an inconsistent language.
>

If you are looking for a language without backwards compatibility, that
runs most of the internet, I suggest you try to write a new language.

I do not suggest you ever try to improve it, but that you get it perfect,
the first time. Good luck.


> Unless you know _exactly_ _every_ settings and _every_ function, you cannot
> predict what PHP might do.
>

So, unless you are fluent in a language, you cannot accurately predict what
you are saying? This is your argument against it?

(setting should have been singular, not plural, in your argument, BTW)

You might as well argue that czeck is inherently bad if it's hard for
english language people to learn. Or vice versa.


> Any discussion regarding this topic always comes to this point: we have to
> live with it.
>

Welcome to the internet's dominant programming language. Fork it if you
want. Crashing a third or half of the internet for a pet feature or change
is not an option.


> A lot of constructive feedback gets ignored because people in this list
> think
> it has a negative tone, while using condescending language on their side.
>

Complaining is not code. It is not constructive.


> A little bit of double standards, don't you think?


Code always wins. Whining about code, or giving "feedback" on code, doesn't
win.

-Ronabop

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