Hello Internals !
As @official_php suggested [1], I'm here to propose a new website for the PHP Project.
In my opinion, current design looks old, outdated and bland. This sadly may reflect "badly" on the language
reputation nowadays.
New comers find it hard to go around the website, to write "comments", report issues or write RFCs.
Even signing up for the internals mailing list wasn't an easy task [2].
Since the development of PHP 8.0 has started, I think its a good idea to start working on a new website.
Global proposal
The proposal here is to do a major rewrite of the PHP sites. This rewrite would includes php.net, windows.php.net,
bug.php.net, wiki.php.net, qa.php.net and other official php websites.
It would be done with this in mind:
-
No PHP framework (to avoid favoriting one)
-
Keep it simple: little to no changes to the database structures
-
This site should look modern, simple and feel welcoming.
-
A new home page, not a "news" page, but a page simply showing the PHP Logo, a code example maybe and
the download link [3].
-
A new community website [4], it can be a place for people to ask questions and discuss php in general - no one uses IRC anymore.
-
Single account: Users should be able to use the same community account to file bugs, create a new RFC (depending on karma) and leave notes on the documentation.
-
Ideally all *.php.net websites would be "merged" into a single brand new website, but I'm not sure about the hosting
specificities (eg, what server does what).
FrontEnd Framework
We don't need that too, but we can use one ! there's some light-weight options out there.
but i'm pretty sure some people in the php community have experience with front-end development and will happily contribute.
see :
Next steps
I would really like to hear opinions about this proposal.
[1] https://twitter.com/official_php/status/1091903415377108994
[2] https://twitter.com/SaraMG/status/1092185205572542466
Saif Eddin Gmati <https://azjezz.github.io
Hello Internals !
As @official_php suggested [1], I'm here to propose a new website for the PHP Project.
In my opinion, current design looks old, outdated and bland. This sadly may reflect "badly" on the language
reputation nowadays.
New comers find it hard to go around the website, to write "comments", report issues or write RFCs.
Even signing up for the internals mailing list wasn't an easy task [2].
Since the development of PHP 8.0 has started, I think its a good idea to start working on a new website.
Global proposal
The proposal here is to do a major rewrite of the PHP sites. This rewrite would includes php.net, windows.php.net,
bug.php.net, wiki.php.net, qa.php.net and other official php websites.
It would be done with this in mind:
No PHP framework (to avoid favoriting one)
Keep it simple: little to no changes to the database structures
This site should look modern, simple and feel welcoming.
A new home page, not a "news" page, but a page simply showing the PHP Logo, a code example maybe and
the download link [3].
A new community website [4], it can be a place for people to ask questions and discuss php in general - no one uses IRC anymore.
Single account: Users should be able to use the same community account to file bugs, create a new RFC (depending on karma) and leave notes on the documentation.
Ideally all *.php.net websites would be "merged" into a single brand new website, but I'm not sure about the hosting
specificities (eg, what server does what).
FrontEnd Framework
We don't need that too, but we can use one ! there's some light-weight options out there.
but i'm pretty sure some people in the php community have experience with front-end development and will happily contribute.
see :
Next steps
I would really like to hear opinions about this proposal.
[1] https://twitter.com/official_php/status/1091903415377108994
[2] https://twitter.com/SaraMG/status/1092185205572542466
Saif Eddin Gmati https://azjezz.github.io
I appreciate the enthusiasm. If you think the current PHP website is
old, out-dated, and bland, you must have not experienced the previous
one:
https://i2.wp.com/www.geekgumbo.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/phpsite45.png
In any case, I hope you realize this is an ambitious project. It will
take a very long time to build a cohesive UI, and then also a very
long time to update the bugs, windows, docs, wiki, etc, websites to
use it. If you are seriously committed to this, then the next step is
to create mock-ups for every type of page across PHP.net that you can
find, and to share them on the PHP Webmasters mailing list (which I've
cc'd). Then, we'll probably give you a few more pages that needs
mocks, after which you will then have to attempt to build the mock-ups
in a few different codebases.
I did the last redesign, and I took a less rigorous approach. If I
were to do it again, I would be much more rigorous in gathering
requirements and building mock-ups. There were a lot of pages which
needed re-worked because of my design, which took even more time.
While it's okay for some pages to be re-worked content-wise to fit the
new design, you want to minimize it.
Hello,
Hello Internals !
As @official_php suggested [1], I'm here to propose a new website for the PHP Project.
In my opinion, current design looks old, outdated and bland. This sadly may reflect "badly" on the language
reputation nowadays.
New comers find it hard to go around the website, to write "comments", report issues or write RFCs.
Even signing up for the internals mailing list wasn't an easy task [2].
Since the development of PHP 8.0 has started, I think its a good idea to start working on a new website.
Global proposal
The proposal here is to do a major rewrite of the PHP sites. This rewrite would includes php.net, windows.php.net,
bug.php.net, wiki.php.net, qa.php.net and other official php websites.
It would be done with this in mind:
No PHP framework (to avoid favoriting one)
Keep it simple: little to no changes to the database structures
This site should look modern, simple and feel welcoming.
A new home page, not a "news" page, but a page simply showing the PHP Logo, a code example maybe and
the download link [3].
A new community website [4], it can be a place for people to ask questions and discuss php in general - no one uses IRC anymore.
Single account: Users should be able to use the same community account to file bugs, create a new RFC (depending on karma) and leave notes on the documentation.
Ideally all *.php.net websites would be "merged" into a single brand new website, but I'm not sure about the hosting
specificities (eg, what server does what).
FrontEnd Framework
We don't need that too, but we can use one ! there's some light-weight options out there.
but i'm pretty sure some people in the php community have experience with front-end development and will happily contribute.
see :
Next steps
I would really like to hear opinions about this proposal.
[1] https://twitter.com/official_php/status/1091903415377108994
[2] https://twitter.com/SaraMG/status/1092185205572542466
Saif Eddin Gmati https://azjezz.github.io
I appreciate the enthusiasm. If you think the current PHP website is
old, out-dated, and bland, you must have not experienced the previous
one:https://i2.wp.com/www.geekgumbo.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/phpsite45.png
In any case, I hope you realize this is an ambitious project. It will
take a very long time to build a cohesive UI, and then also a very
long time to update the bugs, windows, docs, wiki, etc, websites to
use it. If you are seriously committed to this, then the next step is
to create mock-ups for every type of page across PHP.net that you can
find, and to share them on the PHP Webmasters mailing list (which I've
cc'd). Then, we'll probably give you a few more pages that needs
mocks, after which you will then have to attempt to build the mock-ups
in a few different codebases.I did the last redesign, and I took a less rigorous approach. If I
were to do it again, I would be much more rigorous in gathering
requirements and building mock-ups. There were a lot of pages which
needed re-worked because of my design, which took even more time.
While it's okay for some pages to be re-worked content-wise to fit the
new design, you want to minimize it.--
PHP Webmaster List Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
Hello, yes, let's do it. I think we must. Thanks for bumping this
topic... Considering that Levi already did such a step once, he knows
a lot what this means and where will be main issues so he can help a
lot here with some advices and all.
From what I've learned so far with the PHP sites: The websites overall
are very different from one another and some are actually very
complex. The pecl.php.net, bugs.php.net, and the main php.net site are
probably the most complex ones and all written in PHP vanilla way.
After long discussions (regarding the bugs.php.net site), pecl and
bugs sites now include optional Composer for local installation of
some dependencies such as PHPunit, generating fixtures, etc. (not on
production but for local development). So, they are actually going in
the direction of a more modern development. There are also some parts
of php sites that aren't available on GitHub and can't be properly
collaborated on yet (request to make a GH mirror has been submitted).
PECL and bugs sites have received quite a few, very strategic and
future prone changes recently with such step in mind also but it's a
long way to go. Not using some PHP framework for a reason of not
endorsing a framework is actually a really big challenge, but I guess
so it should be and we need to reinvent some required parts on the way
to make this happen. Deployment+production need also some refreshments
but it's a very challenging step from what I understand. For example,
to have this up and running, doing a remake, and doing systems
improvements at the same time.
Few quick suggestions:
- Let's keep the approximate wireframes of the websites as are.
- Let's make a central place for this discussion i.e. the webmaster mailing list
- Let's avoid too big tasks that require a fork + branch checkout +
tons of very difficult and time consuming design/infrastructure/app
changes and then opening a discussion on the webmaster mailing list to
even start considering it. We need to start giving hints and make
decisions before that step if this can be done on time. - *.php.net sites under one roof maybe sound useful but separate
"services" (as is now) is IMHO a better way into this probably because
different servers, databases, usage cases are present. If one site
fails, others still work (in many cases). Many *.php.net sites
otherwise also use a common repository for a theme [1]. And some are
just too different with established practices. - https://php.net/community is in my opinion a bit problematic concept
for PHP. PHP can trust its community and ecosystem around it. Mailing
lists, bugs, GitHub and such places work quite ok, but infrastructure
behind probably need a boost.
[1] https://github.com/php/web-shared
--
Peter Kokot
Hi,
I could nitpick on most of the proposed plan, but I really only wanted
to reply to this:
- A new home page, not a "news" page, but a page simply showing the PHP Logo, a code example maybe and
the download link [3].[...]
I just hate those useless landing pages.
Yes, it looks neat and clean, but after the initial "OMG so pretty"
phase it just becomes annoying - noone cares about the code example
and I for one never know what "Get Started" means. PHP isn't some
consumer desktop software; nobody would just stumble upon php.net and
"get started" with it, whatever that means ...
I'm all for a modern look and all, but let's please keep the news on
the index page. Personally, I only go to php.net to look for the news,
changelogs and to search the docs. This image suggests that I'd need
to do an extra click for each of those things and I'm sure I wouldn't
be the only one unhappy about that.
Cheers,
Andrey.
I'm all for a modern look and all, but let's please keep the news on
the index page. Personally, I only go to php.net to look for the news,
changelogs and to search the docs. This image suggests that I'd need
to do an extra click for each of those things and I'm sure I wouldn't
be the only one unhappy about that.
I agree with not needing a splashy home page (that makes me think 1990s,
"click to enter", rather than modern), although I'd point out you already
need to click through for two of the three tasks you name. Maybe there
should actually be a section on the homepage with links to the main manual
sections, as well as the most recent news stories?
In general, though, I quite like the current site design, and would much
rather effort was spent iteratively improving it, rather than throwing it
away and implementing a new set of bugs.
My personal annoyance is the search result page; specifically, that the
"Full website search" link appears in the sidebar like it's an
afterthought, rather than prominently with the search results, or as a
separate results tab or something.
Regards,
Rowan Collins
[IMSoP]
Le lundi 4 février 2019, 14:44:31 CET Rowan Collins a écrit :
In general, though, I quite like the current site design, and would much
rather effort was spent iteratively improving it, rather than throwing it
away and implementing a new set of bugs.My personal annoyance is the search result page; specifically, that the
"Full website search" link appears in the sidebar like it's an
afterthought, rather than prominently with the search results, or as a
separate results tab or something.
I agree, I like the current website and design and would see much more value in an attempt at fixing small problems one by one rather than trying to redo the whole thing at once.
Change the pages organization a bit would improve things, but the design do not need to change.
For example I hate how this page https://php.net/support has the "Table of Contents" on the right while this one https://php.net/get-involved.php has unique information in the same place that you overlook the first time you read the page.
When I tried to get involved in PHP the first time, I got to https://php.net/get-involved.php, read the "Development of the PHP source" section and was like «Hum, ok, but where is the source? Why aren’t there any links here?». The stuff in the right column should really be in the middle and replaced with a Table of contents for consistency IMO.
Côme
‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
Hi,
I could nitpick on most of the proposed plan, but I really only wanted
to reply to this:
- A new home page, not a "news" page, but a page simply showing the PHP Logo, a code example maybe and
the download link [3].I just hate those useless landing pages.
Yes, it looks neat and clean, but after the initial "OMG so pretty"
phase it just becomes annoying - noone cares about the code example
and I for one never know what "Get Started" means. PHP isn't some
consumer desktop software; nobody would just stumble upon php.net and
"get started" with it, whatever that means ...I'm all for a modern look and all, but let's please keep the news on
the index page. Personally, I only go to php.net to look for the news,
changelogs and to search the docs. This image suggests that I'd need
to do an extra click for each of those things and I'm sure I wouldn't
be the only one unhappy about that.Cheers,
Andrey.
The landing page is meant for the new comers to PHP, when people search for php, the home page is the first to appear. it make sense to show a sample and a straightforward button to get started with using PHP ( introduction, installation and tutorial )
You can see the mock up repository for what the "Getting Started" page would look like.
if you usually visit the website for documentation, you would just type php.net/documentation in the url bar instead of php.net or php.net/blog for changelogs and articles.
Hi,
‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
Hi,
I could nitpick on most of the proposed plan, but I really only wanted
to reply to this:
- A new home page, not a "news" page, but a page simply showing the PHP Logo, a code example maybe and
the download link [3].I just hate those useless landing pages.
Yes, it looks neat and clean, but after the initial "OMG so pretty"
phase it just becomes annoying - noone cares about the code example
and I for one never know what "Get Started" means. PHP isn't some
consumer desktop software; nobody would just stumble upon php.net and
"get started" with it, whatever that means ...I'm all for a modern look and all, but let's please keep the news on
the index page. Personally, I only go to php.net to look for the news,
changelogs and to search the docs. This image suggests that I'd need
to do an extra click for each of those things and I'm sure I wouldn't
be the only one unhappy about that.Cheers,
Andrey.The landing page is meant for the new comers to PHP, when people search for php, the home page is the first to appear. it make sense to show a sample and a straightforward button to get started with using PHP ( introduction, installation and tutorial )
There's a missing link here - who searches for "php" without prior
knowledge of what it is? Programming languages aren't buzzwords that
come up in casual conversations between people who don't already use
them.
And how does it make sense to show a code sample? What for? The only
time I've seen isolated, meaningless code samples serve a purpose is
to look cool in movies.
Now that you mentioned a tutorial, that's one thing I agree is useful
and missing. As a self-learner myself, 15 years ago I would've
appreciated a vetted selection of tutorials on the official website.
But why not just put a "Tutorials" link alongside "Documentation"?
You can see the mock up repository for what the "Getting Started" page would look like.
No such thing had been linked until your last reply (which was sent
after I started writing this), but that's my point exactly - you have
to look at it first in order to know what's hiding behind it and
that's counter-productive to me; I reiterate the suggestion to have a
"Tutorials" link instead.
if you usually visit the website for documentation, you would just type php.net/documentation in the url bar instead of php.net or php.net/blog for changelogs and articles.
See, this is where you actually make the site harder to use.
Today, I only type "ph" into my address bar and thanks to Firefox
hitting enter gets me to php.net, which in turn gives me everything
that I need:
-
The news are the main content and you want to put that on a separate
page, calling it "Blog".
Yes, most modern websites have a "Blog" instead of a "News" section,
but that's because at some point it became "cool" for everyone to
blog. There's no use to just naming it that when there's zero blogging
going on and we have almost exclusively only release announcements. -
The ChangeLog I get convenienty linked to from each news article
about a release (again that's all the news). So that's another thing
you're taking away from the index page, even if by accident. -
The search bar allows me to check the manual for any function
signature, built-in class reference, etc.
Note that I said "search the manual" in my first reply, not browse
it. I've never needed to visit php.net/documentation, yet that's what
you suggest I should do.
These things are regressions for me, not improvements.
In essence, I share Rowan's sentiment in that I actually quite like
the current website, but I like it because it is excellent for
everyday lookups. As long as you can keep it that way, I fully support
your effort.
I don't really care about the design, but there's plenty of other
stuff that could use some love.
Cheers,
Andrey.
‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
Hi,
I could nitpick on most of the proposed plan, but I really only wanted
to reply to this:
- A new home page, not a "news" page, but a page simply showing the PHP Logo, a code example maybe and
the download link [3].I just hate those useless landing pages.
Yes, it looks neat and clean, but after the initial "OMG so pretty"
phase it just becomes annoying - noone cares about the code example
and I for one never know what "Get Started" means. PHP isn't some
consumer desktop software; nobody would just stumble upon php.net and
"get started" with it, whatever that means ...I'm all for a modern look and all, but let's please keep the news on
the index page. Personally, I only go to php.net to look for the news,
changelogs and to search the docs. This image suggests that I'd need
to do an extra click for each of those things and I'm sure I wouldn't
be the only one unhappy about that.Cheers,
Andrey.The landing page is meant for the new comers to PHP, when people search for php, the home page is the first to appear. it make sense to show a sample and a straightforward button to get started with using PHP ( introduction, installation and tutorial )
You can see the mock up repository for what the "Getting Started" page would look like.
if you usually visit the website for documentation, you would just type php.net/documentation in the url bar instead of php.net or php.net/blog for changelogs and articles.
Hi,
‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
Hi,
I could nitpick on most of the proposed plan, but I really only wanted
to reply to this:
- A new home page, not a "news" page, but a page simply showing the PHP Logo, a code example maybe and
the download link [3].I just hate those useless landing pages.
Yes, it looks neat and clean, but after the initial "OMG so pretty"
phase it just becomes annoying - noone cares about the code example
and I for one never know what "Get Started" means. PHP isn't some
consumer desktop software; nobody would just stumble upon php.net and
"get started" with it, whatever that means ...
I'm all for a modern look and all, but let's please keep the news on
the index page. Personally, I only go to php.net to look for the news,
changelogs and to search the docs. This image suggests that I'd need
to do an extra click for each of those things and I'm sure I wouldn't
be the only one unhappy about that.
Cheers,
Andrey.The landing page is meant for the new comers to PHP, when people search for php, the home page is the first to appear. it make sense to show a sample and a straightforward button to get started with using PHP ( introduction, installation and tutorial )
There's a missing link here - who searches for "php" without prior
knowledge of what it is? Programming languages aren't buzzwords that
come up in casual conversations between people who don't already use
them.And how does it make sense to show a code sample? What for? The only
time I've seen isolated, meaningless code samples serve a purpose is
to look cool in movies.Now that you mentioned a tutorial, that's one thing I agree is useful
and missing. As a self-learner myself, 15 years ago I would've
appreciated a vetted selection of tutorials on the official website.
But why not just put a "Tutorials" link alongside "Documentation"?You can see the mock up repository for what the "Getting Started" page would look like.
No such thing had been linked until your last reply (which was sent
after I started writing this), but that's my point exactly - you have
to look at it first in order to know what's hiding behind it and
that's counter-productive to me; I reiterate the suggestion to have a
"Tutorials" link instead.if you usually visit the website for documentation, you would just type php.net/documentation in the url bar instead of php.net or php.net/blog for changelogs and articles.
See, this is where you actually make the site harder to use.
Today, I only type "ph" into my address bar and thanks to Firefox
hitting enter gets me to php.net, which in turn gives me everything
that I need:
The news are the main content and you want to put that on a separate
page, calling it "Blog".
Yes, most modern websites have a "Blog" instead of a "News" section,
but that's because at some point it became "cool" for everyone to
blog. There's no use to just naming it that when there's zero blogging
going on and we have almost exclusively only release announcements.The ChangeLog I get convenienty linked to from each news article
about a release (again that's all the news). So that's another thing
you're taking away from the index page, even if by accident.The search bar allows me to check the manual for any function
signature, built-in class reference, etc.
Note that I said "search the manual" in my first reply, not browse
it. I've never needed to visit php.net/documentation, yet that's what
you suggest I should do.These things are regressions for me, not improvements.
In essence, I share Rowan's sentiment in that I actually quite like
the current website, but I like it because it is excellent for
everyday lookups. As long as you can keep it that way, I fully support
your effort.
I don't really care about the design, but there's plenty of other
stuff that could use some love.Cheers,
Andrey.‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
Hi,
I could nitpick on most of the proposed plan, but I really only wanted
to reply to this:
- A new home page, not a "news" page, but a page simply showing the PHP Logo, a code example maybe and
the download link [3].I just hate those useless landing pages.
Yes, it looks neat and clean, but after the initial "OMG so pretty"
phase it just becomes annoying - noone cares about the code example
and I for one never know what "Get Started" means. PHP isn't some
consumer desktop software; nobody would just stumble upon php.net and
"get started" with it, whatever that means ...
I'm all for a modern look and all, but let's please keep the news on
the index page. Personally, I only go to php.net to look for the news,
changelogs and to search the docs. This image suggests that I'd need
to do an extra click for each of those things and I'm sure I wouldn't
be the only one unhappy about that.
Cheers,
Andrey.The landing page is meant for the new comers to PHP, when people search for php, the home page is the first to appear. it make sense to show a sample and a straightforward button to get started with using PHP ( introduction, installation and tutorial )
You can see the mock up repository for what the "Getting Started" page would look like.
if you usually visit the website for documentation, you would just type php.net/documentation in the URL bar instead of php.net or php.net/blog for changelogs and articles.
Hello Andrey, thanks for your reply. it's really appreciated.
i have asked few people and after sharing opinions, i decided its better to update the landing page to contain almost the same resources as the current website but in a different design.
- now you can see latest releases in the home page with a link for the download and changlog.
- events are now in the side bar as they are now in the php.net website, but they also include an image ( usually the logo )
- the search bar is now in the top navigation menu
- "Getting Started" link is now in the top navigation menu ( the getting started page contains introduction to php, how-to install php in different platforms and a simple tutorial - but i might extend the original tutorial that is now found on php.net - https://secure.php.net/manual/en/tutorial.php - as it seems more focused on how to get a web site running with php rather how to use php )
- reference to the "blog"/"news" has been removed as the landing page is now where release notes are.
mock ups : https://github.com/azjezz/web-php-mock-ups
screenshot : https://github.com/azjezz/web-php-mock-ups/blob/master/screenshots/getting-started.png
wt., 5 lut 2019 o 04:32 azjezz azjezz@protonmail.com napisał(a):
...
mock ups : https://github.com/azjezz/web-php-mock-ups
screenshot :
https://github.com/azjezz/web-php-mock-ups/blob/master/screenshots/getting-started.png
Is this your desired look you wanna propose? I may misunderstand and
probably am.
I made a small pinboard [1] with a collection of known programming
languages websites and
thought it might be useful. When I look at some a home page usually exposes:
- short description
- example code (with an option to run)
- get started
- latest versions
- features
- why this lang and what especially for
- some latest news (not few pages as it is right now)
- etc.
When I look at your proposed landing screenshot it doesn't differ much than
what we have now, right?
You've changed the original purple colour, why?
[1] https://pl.pinterest.com/brzuchal/programming-languages/year-2019/
regards / pozdrawiam,
Michał Brzuchalski
about.me/brzuchal
brzuchalski.com
Is this your desired look you wanna propose? I may misunderstand and
this is the original proposal :
how ever people seem to lean more toward having releases and changlogs in the front-page.
- example code (with an option to run)
i have already explored more sites for programming languages and most do have code samples andrunoption, but people seem to dislike this idea here.
- short description
- get started
- latest versions
i already added these in the last changes : https://github.com/azjezz/web-php-mock-ups#landing
- example code (with an option to run)
- features
- why this lang and what especially for
- some latest news (not few pages as it is right now)
- etc.
i don't see how can we fit all this in 1 page.
but i think we can show releases in the sidebar + a button to read more ( see changelogs, download links .. etc ) / code sample in the main container / features and why this lang under it, and few news cards under with a link to /news.
if you have any other ideas please let me know or if you wanna send a PR that would be amazing :)
Hi,
I could nitpick on most of the proposed plan, but I really only wanted
to reply to this:
- A new home page, not a "news" page, but a page simply showing the PHP Logo, a code example maybe and
the download link [3].[...]
I just hate those useless landing pages.
Yes, it looks neat and clean, but after the initial "OMG so pretty"
phase it just becomes annoying - noone cares about the code example
and I for one never know what "Get Started" means. PHP isn't some
consumer desktop software; nobody would just stumble upon php.net and
"get started" with it, whatever that means ...I'm all for a modern look and all, but let's please keep the news on
the index page. Personally, I only go to php.net to look for the news,
changelogs and to search the docs. This image suggests that I'd need
to do an extra click for each of those things and I'm sure I wouldn't
be the only one unhappy about that.Cheers,
Andrey.
I regularly go to the php.net homepage for the live documentation search
function just to make sure I'm using functions correctly. My most
frequent search is the date() function for the % code list. One of
these days I'll print out that docs page instead of looking it up every
time to save everyone the bandwidth. Of the things I'd miss the most
would be the live documentation search feature to jump directly to what
I'm looking for. Google Search doesn't cut it here.
For a newbie, I'd say a "Get Started" button that goes to a vetted group
of starter tutorials (maybe videos?) on a variety of subjects could be
valuable. I wouldn't want the homepage to load a video player though.
My biggest complaint is that there's nothing in the mockup that says
what PHP is for.
Website: "Here's PHP spelled out and a difficult to comprehend code
example. Uh...Get Started?"
First time visitor: "Okay, that's great. Now tell me what is PHP in
words I can understand and what can I use it for and is it popular?"
A code example rarely, if ever, makes a good first impression.
--
Thomas Hruska
CubicleSoft President
I've got great, time saving software that you will find useful.
And once you find my software useful:
For a newbie, I'd say a "Get Started" button that goes to a vetted group
of starter tutorials (maybe videos?) on a variety of subjects could be
valuable.
I know some people love them, but I absolutely hate video introductions. I
like to skim read content for the bits that are of use to me, and glance
back and forth to get the idea; videos don't let me do that. If a project
says "watch our 10- minute video to understand what we're all about", I
close the browser tab and go somewhere else. So if anyone goes down this
route, please make videos supplement a user-friendly text introduction,
not replace it.
Regards,
Rowan Collins
[IMSoP]
Hi Thomas,
I regularly go to the php.net homepage for the live documentation search
function just to make sure I'm using functions correctly. My most
frequent search is thedate()function for the % code list. One of
these days I'll print out that docs page instead of looking it up every
time to save everyone the bandwidth. Of the things I'd miss the most
would be the live documentation search feature to jump directly to what
I'm looking for. Google Search doesn't cut it here.
As long as you know the exact spelling of the method, that works
perfectly. If you do not know exact spelling, perhaps you get some
usable suggestions - more often not...
Regards
Thomas
Hi,
I could nitpick on most of the proposed plan, but I really only wanted
to reply to this:
- A new home page, not a "news" page, but a page simply showing the PHP Logo, a code example maybe and
the download link [3].I just hate those useless landing pages.
Yes, it looks neat and clean, but after the initial "OMG so pretty"
phase it just becomes annoying - noone cares about the code example
and I for one never know what "Get Started" means. PHP isn't some
consumer desktop software; nobody would just stumble upon php.net and
"get started" with it, whatever that means ...
I'm all for a modern look and all, but let's please keep the news on
the index page. Personally, I only go to php.net to look for the news,
changelogs and to search the docs. This image suggests that I'd need
to do an extra click for each of those things and I'm sure I wouldn't
be the only one unhappy about that.
Cheers,
Andrey.I regularly go to thephp.net homepage for the live documentation search
function just to make sure I'm using functions correctly. My most
frequent search is thedate()function for the % code list. One of
these days I'll print out that docs page instead of looking it up every
time to save everyone the bandwidth. Of the things I'd miss the most
would be the live documentation search feature to jump directly to what
I'm looking for. Google Search doesn't cut it here.For a newbie, I'd say a "Get Started" button that goes to a vetted group
of starter tutorials (maybe videos?) on a variety of subjects could be
valuable. I wouldn't want the homepage to load a video player though.My biggest complaint is that there's nothing in the mockup that says
what PHP is for.Website: "Here's PHP spelled out and a difficult to comprehend code
example. Uh...Get Started?"First time visitor: "Okay, that's great. Now tell me what is PHP in
words I can understand and what can I use it for and is it popular?"A code example rarely, if ever, makes a good first impression.
Thomas Hruska
CubicleSoft PresidentI've got great, time saving software that you will find useful.
And once you find my software useful:
thanks for your suggestion, i have update the mock up to :
- include a search input in the navbar
- move the "Getting Started" button to the navbar
- include a short description of what PHP is ( the same one that is currently on the of php.net )
Hi,
I could nitpick on most of the proposed plan, but I really only
wanted
to reply to this:
- A new home page, not a "news" page, but a page simply showing
the PHP Logo, a code example maybe and
the download link [3].[...]
[3] https://camo.githubusercontent.com/762e5d9fcaaa4ecf645343350a
91929f99f452e9/68747470733a2f2f692e696d6775722e636f6d2f5844776752
61662e706e67
I just hate those useless landing pages.Yes, it looks neat and clean, but after the initial "OMG so pretty"
phase it just becomes annoying - noone cares about the code example
and I for one never know what "Get Started" means. PHP isn't some
consumer desktop software; nobody would just stumble upon php.net and
"get started" with it, whatever that means ...I'm all for a modern look and all, but let's please keep the news on
the index page. Personally, I only go to php.net to look for the
news,
changelogs and to search the docs. This image suggests that I'd need
to do an extra click for each of those things and I'm sure I wouldn't
be the only one unhappy about that.
I for one don't think we need news going back to 2017 on the frontpage.
I would like a stronger emphasis on the docs and maybe making the
search more obvious (you have direct access to all docs from there -
it's not just a stupid site search!)
johannes
I for one don't think we need news going back to 2017 on the frontpage.
I would like a stronger emphasis on the docs and maybe making the
search more obvious (you have direct access to all docs from there -
it's not just a stupid site search!)
Yes, a "most recent N news articles" with a "view older news" link would make sense, and give room for some other sections like prominent links to main documentation sections, bug tracker, etc.
This would be a good incremental improvement within the current look and feel, and is more likely to be completed successfully than several months of root-and-branch redesign.
Regards,
--
Rowan Collins
[IMSoP]
Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.
‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
Hello Internals !
As @official_php suggested [1], I'm here to propose a new website for the PHP Project.
In my opinion, current design looks old, outdated and bland. This sadly may reflect "badly" on the language
reputation nowadays.
New comers find it hard to go around the website, to write "comments", report issues or write RFCs.
Even signing up for the internals mailing list wasn't an easy task [2].
Since the development of PHP 8.0 has started, I think its a good idea to start working on a new website.Global proposal
================
The proposal here is to do a major rewrite of the PHP sites. This rewrite would includes php.net, windows.php.net,
bug.php.net, wiki.php.net, qa.php.net and other official php websites.
It would be done with this in mind:
No PHP framework (to avoid favoriting one)
Keep it simple: little to no changes to the database structures
This site should look modern, simple and feel welcoming.
A new home page, not a "news" page, but a page simply showing the PHP Logo, a code example maybe and
the download link [3].
A new community website [4], it can be a place for people to ask questions and discuss php in general - no one uses IRC anymore.
Single account: Users should be able to use the same community account to file bugs, create a new RFC (depending on karma) and leave notes on the documentation.
Ideally all *.php.net websites would be "merged" into a single brand new website, but I'm not sure about the hosting
specificities (eg, what server does what).
FrontEnd Framework
===================
We don't need that too, but we can use one ! there's some light-weight options out there.
but i'm pretty sure some people in the php community have experience with front-end development and will happily contribute.
see :
Next steps
===========
I would really like to hear opinions about this proposal.
[1] https://twitter.com/official_php/status/1091903415377108994
[2] https://twitter.com/SaraMG/status/1092185205572542466
[3] https://camo.githubusercontent.com/762e5d9fcaaa4ecf645343350a91929f99f452e9/68747470733a2f2f692e696d6775722e636f6d2f584477675261662e706e67
[4] https://php.net/communitySaif Eddin Gmati https://azjezz.github.io
I appreciate the enthusiasm. If you think the current PHP website is
old, out-dated, and bland, you must have not experienced the previous
one:https://i2.wp.com/www.geekgumbo.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/phpsite45.png
In any case, I hope you realize this is an ambitious project. It will
take a very long time to build a cohesive UI, and then also a very
long time to update the bugs, windows, docs, wiki, etc, websites to
use it. If you are seriously committed to this, then the next step is
to create mock-ups for every type of page across PHP.net that you can
find, and to share them on the PHP Webmasters mailing list (which I've
cc'd). Then, we'll probably give you a few more pages that needs
mocks, after which you will then have to attempt to build the mock-ups
in a few different codebases.I did the last redesign, and I took a less rigorous approach. If I
were to do it again, I would be much more rigorous in gathering
requirements and building mock-ups. There were a lot of pages which
needed re-worked because of my design, which took even more time.
While it's okay for some pages to be re-worked content-wise to fit the
new design, you want to minimize it.
I'm not proposing updating the UI and other websites to use, instead rebuild all PHP websites.
for the mock-ups, i have created a GitHub repository : https://github.com/azjezz/web-php-mock-ups/
this would take more time than just updating the UI, but the PHP website is getting old and most of it is broken or just hard to use.
i would appreciate any help or suggestions for the UI.
as it would be the first step before starting to build the new website.
I'm not proposing updating the UI and other websites to use, instead
rebuild all PHP websites.
I'm not sure what the difference between "updating the UI" and "rebuilding
the websites" is. Do you mean that as well as rewriting every HTML and CSS
template, you're going to build a completely new bug tracker, a new DocBook
to HTML generator for the manual, and so on? If so, I strongly suggest you
rein in your ambitions and tackle one problem at a time.
Regards,
Rowan Collins
[IMSoP]
I'm not proposing updating the UI and other websites to use, instead rebuild all PHP websites.
I'm not sure what the difference between "updating the UI" and "rebuilding the websites" is. Do you mean that as well as rewriting every HTML and CSS template, you're going to build a completely new bug tracker, a new DocBook to HTML generator for the manual, and so on? If so, I strongly suggest you rein in your ambitions and tackle one problem at a time.
Regards,
Rowan Collins
[IMSoP]
i think i will start by php.net and the documentation. but this would also require markdown documentation, as contributing to the PHP docs is not easy at all now.
but this it another topic for another time.
for now, i'll just finish doing the mock ups.
I can do some design, I designed the UI of CakePHP framework generators in 2015. You can see the whole process here: https://github.com/cakephp/cakephp/issues/6679
We should not rely on any css, js or html framework in my opinion. But it's up to you.
For layout, CSS Grid and Flexbox is more than enough and would be future proof, but should be tested and polyfilled.
A lot of cross browser testing will be needed.
Cheers,
Midori
On 04/02/2019, 02:03, "Levi Morrison" levim@php.net wrote:
>
> Hello Internals !
>
> As @official_php suggested [1], I'm here to propose a new website for the PHP Project.
>
> In my opinion, current design looks old, outdated and bland. This sadly may reflect "badly" on the language
>
> reputation nowadays.
>
> New comers find it hard to go around the website, to write "comments", report issues or write RFCs.
>
> Even signing up for the internals mailing list wasn't an easy task [2].
>
> Since the development of PHP 8.0 has started, I think its a good idea to start working on a new website.
>
> # Global proposal
>
> The proposal here is to do a major rewrite of the PHP sites. This rewrite would includes php.net, windows.php.net,
>
> bug.php.net, wiki.php.net, qa.php.net and other official php websites.
>
> It would be done with this in mind:
>
> * No PHP framework (to avoid favoriting one)
>
> * Keep it simple: little to no changes to the database structures
>
> * This site should look modern, simple and feel welcoming.
>
> * A new home page, not a "news" page, but a page simply showing the PHP Logo, a code example maybe and
>
> the download link [3].
>
> * A new community website [4], it can be a place for people to ask questions and discuss php in general - no one uses IRC anymore.
>
> * Single account: Users should be able to use the same community account to file bugs, create a new RFC (depending on karma) and leave notes on the documentation.
>
> * Ideally all *.php.net websites would be "merged" into a single brand new website, but I'm not sure about the hosting
>
> specificities (eg, what server does what).
>
> # FrontEnd Framework
>
> We don't need that too, but we can use one ! there's some light-weight options out there.
>
> but i'm pretty sure some people in the php community have experience with front-end development and will happily contribute.
>
> see :
>
> - https://mustard-ui.com/
>
> - https://getuikit.com/
>
> - https://bulma.io/
>
> - https://picturepan2.github.io/spectre/index.html
>
> # Next steps
>
> I would really like to hear opinions about this proposal.
>
> [1] https://twitter.com/official_php/status/1091903415377108994
>
> [2] https://twitter.com/SaraMG/status/1092185205572542466
>
> [3] https://camo.githubusercontent.com/762e5d9fcaaa4ecf645343350a91929f99f452e9/68747470733a2f2f692e696d6775722e636f6d2f584477675261662e706e67
>
> [4] https://php.net/community
>
> ---
>
> Saif Eddin Gmati <https://azjezz.github.io>
I appreciate the enthusiasm. If you think the current PHP website is
old, out-dated, and bland, you must have not experienced the previous
one:
https://i2.wp.com/www.geekgumbo.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/phpsite45.png
In any case, I hope you realize this is an ambitious project. It will
take a very long time to build a cohesive UI, and then also a very
long time to update the bugs, windows, docs, wiki, etc, websites to
use it. If you are seriously committed to this, then the next step is
to create mock-ups for every type of page across PHP.net that you can
find, and to share them on the PHP Webmasters mailing list (which I've
cc'd). Then, we'll probably give you a few more pages that needs
mocks, after which you will then have to attempt to build the mock-ups
in a few different codebases.
I did the last redesign, and I took a less rigorous approach. If I
were to do it again, I would be much more rigorous in gathering
requirements and building mock-ups. There were a lot of pages which
needed re-worked because of my design, which took even more time.
While it's okay for some pages to be re-worked content-wise to fit the
new design, you want to minimize it.
I can do some design, I designed the UI of CakePHP framework generators in 2015. You can see the whole process here: https://github.com/cakephp/cakephp/issues/6679
We should not rely on any css, js or html framework in my opinion. But it's up to you.
For layout, CSS Grid and Flexbox is more than enough and would be future proof, but should be tested and polyfilled.
A lot of cross browser testing will be needed.
Cheers,
Midori
I'd really appreciate help in this.
if you would like to collaborate in the mock-ups for now, that would be great.
I'm not good enough with CSS so i have used Specter CSS framework in the mock-ups, it a lightweight pure CSS framework as i don't see the need for any JS yet.
I have sent you an invitation on GitHub, if you would like to join you are welcome.