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Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2019 03:20:50 +0200
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To: azjezz <azjezz@protonmail.com>
Cc: Levi Morrison <levim@php.net>, "internals@lists.php.net" <internals@lists.php.net>, 
	"php-webmaster@lists.php.net" <php-webmaster@lists.php.net>
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Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] New website for the PHP project
From: narf@devilix.net (Andrey Andreev)

Hi,

On Mon, Feb 4, 2019 at 5:14 PM azjezz <azjezz@protonmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> =E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90 Original =
Message =E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90
> On Monday, February 4, 2019 2:32 PM, Andrey Andreev <narf@devilix.net> wr=
ote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > I could nitpick on most of the proposed plan, but I really only wanted
> > to reply to this:
> >
> > > > -   A new home page, not a "news" page, but a page simply showing t=
he PHP Logo, a code example maybe and
> > > >     the download link [3].
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [...]
> > > > [3] https://camo.githubusercontent.com/762e5d9fcaaa4ecf645343350a91=
929f99f452e9/68747470733a2f2f692e696d6775722e636f6d2f584477675261662e706e67
> >
> > I just hate those useless landing pages.
> >
> > Yes, it looks neat and clean, but after the initial "OMG so pretty"
> > phase it just becomes annoying - noone cares about the code example
> > and I for one never know what "Get Started" means. PHP isn't some
> > consumer desktop software; nobody would just stumble upon php.net and
> > "get started" with it, whatever that means ...
> >
> > I'm all for a modern look and all, but let's please keep the news on
> > the index page. Personally, I only go to php.net to look for the news,
> > changelogs and to search the docs. This image suggests that I'd need
> > to do an extra click for each of those things and I'm sure I wouldn't
> > be the only one unhappy about that.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Andrey.
>
> The landing page is meant for the new comers to PHP, when people search f=
or php, the home page is the first to appear. it make sense to show a sampl=
e and a straightforward button to get started with using PHP ( introduction=
, installation and tutorial )
>

There's a missing link here - who searches for "php" without prior
knowledge of what it is? Programming languages aren't buzzwords that
come up in casual conversations between people who don't already use
them.

And how does it make sense to show a code sample? What for? The only
time I've seen isolated, meaningless code samples serve a purpose is
to look cool in movies.

Now that you mentioned a tutorial, that's one thing I agree is useful
and missing. As a self-learner myself, 15 years ago I would've
appreciated a vetted selection of tutorials on the official website.
But why not just put a "Tutorials" link alongside "Documentation"?

> You can see the mock up repository for what the "Getting Started" page wo=
uld look like.
>

No such thing had been linked until your last reply (which was sent
after I started writing this), but that's my point exactly - you have
to look at it first in order to know what's hiding behind it and
that's counter-productive to me; I reiterate the suggestion to have a
"Tutorials" link instead.

> if you usually visit the website for documentation, you would just type p=
hp.net/documentation in the url bar instead of php.net or php.net/blog for =
changelogs and articles.

See, this is where you actually make the site harder to use.

Today, I only type "ph" into my address bar and thanks to Firefox
hitting enter gets me to php.net, which in turn gives me everything
that I need:

- The news are the main content and you want to put that on a separate
page, calling it "Blog".
  Yes, most modern websites have a "Blog" instead of a "News" section,
but that's because at some point it became "cool" for everyone to
blog. There's no use to just naming it that when there's zero blogging
going on and we have almost exclusively only release announcements.

- The ChangeLog I get convenienty linked to from each news article
about a release (again that's all the news). So that's another thing
you're taking away from the index page, even if by accident.

- The search bar allows me to check the manual for any function
signature, built-in class reference, etc.
  Note that I said "search the manual" in my first reply, not browse
it. I've never needed to visit php.net/documentation, yet that's what
you suggest I should do.

These things are regressions for me, not improvements.

---

In essence, I share Rowan's sentiment in that I actually quite like
the current website, but I like it because it is excellent for
everyday lookups. As long as you can keep it that way, I fully support
your effort.
I don't really care about the design, but there's plenty of other
stuff that could use some love.

Cheers,
Andrey.

On Mon, Feb 4, 2019 at 5:14 PM azjezz <azjezz@protonmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> =E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90 Original =
Message =E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90
> On Monday, February 4, 2019 2:32 PM, Andrey Andreev <narf@devilix.net> wr=
ote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > I could nitpick on most of the proposed plan, but I really only wanted
> > to reply to this:
> >
> > > > -   A new home page, not a "news" page, but a page simply showing t=
he PHP Logo, a code example maybe and
> > > >     the download link [3].
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [...]
> > > > [3] https://camo.githubusercontent.com/762e5d9fcaaa4ecf645343350a91=
929f99f452e9/68747470733a2f2f692e696d6775722e636f6d2f584477675261662e706e67
> >
> > I just hate those useless landing pages.
> >
> > Yes, it looks neat and clean, but after the initial "OMG so pretty"
> > phase it just becomes annoying - noone cares about the code example
> > and I for one never know what "Get Started" means. PHP isn't some
> > consumer desktop software; nobody would just stumble upon php.net and
> > "get started" with it, whatever that means ...
> >
> > I'm all for a modern look and all, but let's please keep the news on
> > the index page. Personally, I only go to php.net to look for the news,
> > changelogs and to search the docs. This image suggests that I'd need
> > to do an extra click for each of those things and I'm sure I wouldn't
> > be the only one unhappy about that.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Andrey.
>
> The landing page is meant for the new comers to PHP, when people search f=
or php, the home page is the first to appear. it make sense to show a sampl=
e and a straightforward button to get started with using PHP ( introduction=
, installation and tutorial )
>
> You can see the mock up repository for what the "Getting Started" page wo=
uld look like.
>
> if you usually visit the website for documentation, you would just type p=
hp.net/documentation in the url bar instead of php.net or php.net/blog for =
changelogs and articles.