Ladies, Gentlemen, Kings and Princesses,
With the nice PHP 5 / PHP 6 unicode semantics thread under way I am
trying to gauge what people feel about dropping support for PHP 4 at the
end of this year. That does not mean that we will not fix security
issues, we have to as the install base is too large, but that would be
the only thing that would warrant a new release. I already sort of
mentioned this on april 1st, but I think we should come with a slightly
more official statement. Your votes please (only -1 and +1 are
allowed)!
regards,
Derick
+1
Ladies, Gentlemen, Kings and Princesses,
With the nice PHP 5 / PHP 6 unicode semantics thread under way I am
trying to gauge what people feel about dropping support for PHP 4 at the
end of this year. That does not mean that we will not fix security
issues, we have to as the install base is too large, but that would be
the only thing that would warrant a new release. I already sort of
mentioned this on april 1st, but I think we should come with a slightly
more official statement. Your votes please (only -1 and +1 are
allowed)!regards,
Derick--
--
David Coallier,
Founder & Software Architect,
Agora Production (http://agoraproduction.com)
51.42.06.70.18
Ladies, Gentlemen, Kings and Princesses,
With the nice PHP 5 / PHP 6 unicode semantics thread under way I am
trying to gauge what people feel about dropping support for PHP 4 at the
end of this year. That does not mean that we will not fix security
issues, we have to as the install base is too large, but that would be
the only thing that would warrant a new release. I already sort of
mentioned this on april 1st, but I think we should come with a slightly
more official statement. Your votes please (only -1 and +1 are
allowed)!regards,
Derick--
+1
Vote for PHP Color Coding in Gmail! -> http://gpcc.tijnema.info
-1
Because the majority of the installation (somebody two month ago in this
list mentioned that php 5 has just 10% adoption) is still php4 just makes no
sense to drop the support. I see (and understand) both the desire of the
developers and the objective reasons for the rush on the new versions, and I
would propose to drop php4 when php6 is out. Then, probably, because of the
new features in v6 the v4 users will consider migration (and then will
become obvious that php4 soon will be and has to be dropped).
So I would vote +1 if it was not "at the end of the year" but instead, "when
php6 is released" (or if you have strict plan to do this release before the
end of this year, then count my vote as +1).
-1
Because the majority of the installation (somebody two month ago in this
list mentioned that php 5 has just 10% adoption) is still php4 just makes no
sense to drop the support. I see (and understand) both the desire of the
developers and the objective reasons for the rush on the new versions, and I
would propose to drop php4 when php6 is out. Then, probably, because of the
new features in v6 the v4 users will consider migration (and then will
become obvious that php4 soon will be and has to be dropped).
So I would vote +1 if it was not "at the end of the year" but instead, "when
php6 is released" (or if you have strict plan to do this release before the
end of this year, then count my vote as +1).
+1
Because as Derick mentioned, there would still be security fixes.
Cheers,
Rob.
.------------------------------------------------------------.
| InterJinn Application Framework - http://www.interjinn.com |
:------------------------------------------------------------:
| An application and templating framework for PHP. Boasting |
| a powerful, scalable system for accessing system services |
| such as forms, properties, sessions, and caches. InterJinn |
| also provides an extremely flexible architecture for |
| creating re-usable components quickly and easily. |
`------------------------------------------------------------'
Vesselin Kenashkov wrote:
-1
Because the majority of the installation (somebody two month ago in this
list mentioned that php 5 has just 10% adoption) is still php4 just
makes no sense to drop the support.
This is a very old and tired argument, and pretty much is exactly where
Apache httpd was, with respect to 1.3, at a similar timeframe.
Folks find it to easy to stay with what they have installed. And even
once 4.4 'ends', you will still have security patches (as mentioned)
to keep them safe, if they even bother the patch/update. Adoption will
be slow.
But it doesn't justify leaving the developers dug in the sands trying
to move changes back to 4.4. If they want the glitz, jazz and even the
most up to date bug fixes, they'll have to come along for the ride.
Take care of your developers, and your users will have a platform they
can appreciate and enjoy. Focus on acting like a BigCo and you will sap
the developers' time and energy.
I agree (this is why wrote "I see (and understand) both the desire of the
developers and the objective reasons..") and I do not want to start this
topic again. The move is inevitable.
But please take a look what Rasmus said:
"I'm breaking your vote only rule. I don't really understand what
dropping support means if we will still release security fixes. That's
the mode we have been in for at least a year, so what would change at
the end of the year?"
I totally agree with him. So there must be a definition what exactly is
being "dropped" (or actually just a message will be added on the hope page
wihtout policy change?).
And my point in the previous message was that after having php6 released,
there will be at least two reasons - the new version will have obvious
advantages, and as well the new version number will be 6, which
automatically even without announce means that v4 will be phased out. I am
not deep into the php internals and policies, but do you consider direct
php4->php6 migration? Any comments?
But I agree - if you want to speed up the migration - it is a good idea to
place an announcement on the home page like "PHP v4 is being phased out. New
versions will not be released after xx/xx/2007/8 ... "
Vesselin Kenashkov
Vesselin Kenashkov wrote:
-1
Because the majority of the installation (somebody two month ago in this
list mentioned that php 5 has just 10% adoption) is still php4 just
makes no sense to drop the support.This is a very old and tired argument, and pretty much is exactly where
Apache httpd was, with respect to 1.3, at a similar timeframe.Folks find it to easy to stay with what they have installed. And even
once 4.4 'ends', you will still have security patches (as mentioned)
to keep them safe, if they even bother the patch/update. Adoption will
be slow.But it doesn't justify leaving the developers dug in the sands trying
to move changes back to 4.4. If they want the glitz, jazz and even the
most up to date bug fixes, they'll have to come along for the ride.Take care of your developers, and your users will have a platform they
can appreciate and enjoy. Focus on acting like a BigCo and you will sap
the developers' time and energy.
Hello Vesselin,
what is the source of your numbers?
Best Regards,
Oliver
Vesselin Kenashkov schrieb:
-1
Because the majority of the installation (somebody two month ago in this
list mentioned that php 5 has just 10% adoption) is still php4 just
makes no
sense to drop the support.
Looks close to
http://www.nexen.net/chiffres_cles/phpversion/16987-php_stats_evolution_for_april_2007.php
Hello Vesselin,
what is the source of your numbers?
Best Regards,
Oliver
Vesselin Kenashkov schrieb:
-1
Because the majority of the installation (somebody two month ago in this
list mentioned that php 5 has just 10% adoption) is still php4 just
makes no
sense to drop the support.
Hello Vesselin,
what is the source of your numbers?
Best Regards,
Oliver
Vesselin Kenashkov schrieb:
-1
Because the majority of the installation (somebody two month ago in this
list mentioned that php 5 has just 10% adoption) is still php4 just
makes no
sense to drop the support.
I can not find the specific message...
But googling I found this:
http://www.nexen.net/chiffres_cles/phpversion/php_stats_evolution_for_november_2006.php
So as of november 2006 the php5 adoption was slightly above 12%. Having the
time passed since (and looking on the graphics - 8% per year), we can guess
that now it is close to 20%. If this speed keeps constant in time even the
50% will be passed in years (probably 2)... So the php4 users must be
encouraged (in the proper way ;) ) to migrate.
End of the offtopic.
I just want to rise again my question - do you think that php4->php6
migration will possible/popular? Is there a strong reason preventing this?
So this gets back to the point to bind the php4 EOL date with php6 release
cycle.
Vesselin Kenashkov
2007/7/7, Vesselin Kenashkov kenashkov@gmail.com:
So as of november 2006 the php5 adoption was slightly above 12%. Having the
time passed since (and looking on the graphics - 8% per year), we can guess
that now it is close to 20%.
well done, you guessed it right. see the same stats for june:
http://www.nexen.net/chiffres_cles/phpversion/17283-php_statistics_for_june_2007.php
php4 - 80,34%
php5 - 19,25%
:)
-- rodrigo moraes
Hi,
I can not find the specific message...
But googling I found this:
http://www.nexen.net/chiffres_cles/phpversion/php_stats_evolution_for_november_2006.php
So as of november 2006 the php5 adoption was slightly above 12%. Having the
With such figures you have to keep in mind that a) it does also count
systems not really maintained and b) only systems with expose_php on
which are available on the internet, not intranet hosts. I have
statistics showing me that 59.2% of the people who install a recent
version of phpMyFAQ, which is some random average, free available, PHP
application, do this on PHP 5. (here you have too keep in mind that this
includes people who install it, maybe for testing, on a local windows
box and all... ah and it only counts data from people who agree sending
it). Once I have the time, I'll sit down and make some deeper analysis
of the data I have.
The key point is: Statistics can show quite different numbers, so don't
overrate them.
johannes
Hi,
I can not find the specific message...
But googling I found this:http://www.nexen.net/chiffres_cles/phpversion/php_stats_evolution_for_november_2006.php
So as of november 2006 the php5 adoption was slightly above 12%. Having
theWith such figures you have to keep in mind that a) it does also count
systems not really maintained and b) only systems with expose_php on
which are available on the internet, not intranet hosts. I have
statistics showing me that 59.2% of the people who install a recent
version of phpMyFAQ, which is some random average, free available, PHP
application, do this on PHP 5. (here you have too keep in mind that this
includes people who install it, maybe for testing, on a local windows
box and all... ah and it only counts data from people who agree sending
it). Once I have the time, I'll sit down and make some deeper analysis
of the data I have.The key point is: Statistics can show quite different numbers, so don't
overrate them.johannes
I agree about the statistics. I posted this just because Oliver asked...
My thought about php4->php6 migration was that when php6 is out to
encourage (or more correctly said almost enforce - with the proper
announcement for EOL on the php.net) the php4 users to upgrade directly to
php6. This way the php6 adoption could be much faster than php5 one.
It will be just obvious for everybody still using php4 that he has to
upgrade - then why to upgrade to php5 while he can upgrade to php6?
So please give your opinions on this.
Vesselin Kenashkov
My thought about php4->php6 migration was that when php6 is out to
encourage (or more correctly said almost enforce - with the proper
announcement for EOL on the php.net) the php4 users to upgrade directly to
php6. This way the php6 adoption could be much faster than php5 one.
It will be just obvious for everybody still using php4 that he has to
upgrade - then why to upgrade to php5 while he can upgrade to php6?
So please give your opinions on this.
I dont think this is a good idea and is unlikely to happen in the real
world.
IMO we should push users to first get onto PHP5 now that its stable enough
to be used, then look at gently nudging users to PHP 6 about a year after
its be released. When PHP 6 has been out 3 years look a nudging people
running PHP 5 a little harder to migrate. Although AFAICS the unicode
implementation issues (see the unicode semantics thread) is likely to be a
key issue to get people to migrate up to PHP6 so the less painful it can be
made the better.
Regards
Marco
Vesselin Kenashkov schrieb:
announcement for EOL on the php.net) the php4 users to upgrade directly to
php6. This way the php6 adoption could be much faster than php5 one.
So please give your opinions on this.
I'd say this is not a good idea because PHP6 will/should/hopefully does
introduce some backwards compatibility breaks (like removed php.ini
options). So migrating from PHP4 to PHP5 first seems a better way to go,
at least for troublesome code.
Kind regards,
Stefan
--
e-novative> - We make IT work for you.
e-novative GmbH - HR: Amtsgericht München HRB 139407
Sitz: Wolfratshausen - GF: Dipl. Inform. Stefan Priebsch
Ladies, Gentlemen, Kings and Princesses,
With the nice PHP 5 / PHP 6 unicode semantics thread under way I am
trying to gauge what people feel about dropping support for PHP 4 at the
end of this year. That does not mean that we will not fix security
issues, we have to as the install base is too large, but that would be
the only thing that would warrant a new release. I already sort of
mentioned this on april 1st, but I think we should come with a slightly
more official statement. Your votes please (only -1 and +1 are
allowed)!
+1
(goes celebrating..)
--
Wbr,
Antony Dovgal
+1
-----Original Message-----
From: Derick Rethans [mailto:derick@php.net]
Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 8:33 AM
To: PHP Developers Mailing List
Subject: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?
Ladies, Gentlemen, Kings and Princesses,
With the nice PHP 5 / PHP 6 unicode semantics thread under way I am
trying to gauge what people feel about dropping support for PHP 4 at the
end of this year. That does not mean that we will not fix security
issues, we have to as the install base is too large, but that would be
the only thing that would warrant a new release. I already sort of
mentioned this on april 1st, but I think we should come with a slightly
more official statement. Your votes please (only -1 and +1 are
allowed)!
regards,
Derick
Ladies, Gentlemen, Kings and Princesses,
With the nice PHP 5 / PHP 6 unicode semantics thread under way I am
trying to gauge what people feel about dropping support for PHP 4 at the
end of this year. That does not mean that we will not fix security
issues, we have to as the install base is too large, but that would be
the only thing that would warrant a new release. I already sort of
mentioned this on april 1st, but I think we should come with a slightly
more official statement. Your votes please (only -1 and +1 are
allowed)!
+1
--
Alain Williams
Linux Consultant - Mail systems, Web sites, Networking, Programmer, IT Lecturer.
+44 (0) 787 668 0256 http://www.phcomp.co.uk/
Parliament Hill Computers Ltd. Registration Information: http://www.phcomp.co.uk/contact.php
#include <std_disclaimer.h
+1
Derick Rethans kirjoitti:
Ladies, Gentlemen, Kings and Princesses,
With the nice PHP 5 / PHP 6 unicode semantics thread under way I am
trying to gauge what people feel about dropping support for PHP 4 at the
end of this year. That does not mean that we will not fix security
issues, we have to as the install base is too large, but that would be
the only thing that would warrant a new release. I already sort of
mentioned this on april 1st, but I think we should come with a slightly
more official statement. Your votes please (only -1 and +1 are
allowed)!regards,
Derick
Ladies, Gentlemen, Kings and Princesses,
With the nice PHP 5 / PHP 6 unicode semantics thread under way I am
trying to gauge what people feel about dropping support for PHP 4 at the
end of this year. That does not mean that we will not fix security
issues, we have to as the install base is too large, but that would be
the only thing that would warrant a new release. I already sort of
mentioned this on april 1st, but I think we should come with a slightly
more official statement. Your votes please (only -1 and +1 are
allowed)!regards,
Derick
+1
--
Richard Quadling
Zend Certified Engineer : http://zend.com/zce.php?c=ZEND002498&r=213474731
"Standing on the shoulders of some very clever giants!"
Derick Rethans schrieb:
Your votes please (only -1 and +1 are allowed)!
+1
--
Sebastian Bergmann http://sebastian-bergmann.de/
GnuPG Key: 0xB85B5D69 / 27A7 2B14 09E4 98CD 6277 0E5B 6867 C514 B85B 5D69
Derick Rethans wrote:
Ladies, Gentlemen, Kings and Princesses,
With the nice PHP 5 / PHP 6 unicode semantics thread under way I am
trying to gauge what people feel about dropping support for PHP 4 at the
end of this year. That does not mean that we will not fix security
issues, we have to as the install base is too large, but that would be
the only thing that would warrant a new release. I already sort of
mentioned this on april 1st, but I think we should come with a slightly
more official statement. Your votes please (only -1 and +1 are
allowed)!regards,
Derick
+1
(It's been a long time coming.)
Scott
Derick Rethans wrote:
Ladies, Gentlemen, Kings and Princesses,
With the nice PHP 5 / PHP 6 unicode semantics thread under way I am
trying to gauge what people feel about dropping support for PHP 4 at the
end of this year. That does not mean that we will not fix security
issues, we have to as the install base is too large, but that would be
the only thing that would warrant a new release. I already sort of
mentioned this on april 1st, but I think we should come with a slightly
more official statement. Your votes please (only -1 and +1 are
allowed)!
+1
--
Lester Caine - G8HFL
Contact - http://home.lsces.co.uk/lsces/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://home.lsces.co.uk
MEDW - http://home.lsces.co.uk/ModelEngineersDigitalWorkshop/
Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php
+1
Ladies, Gentlemen, Kings and Princesses,
With the nice PHP 5 / PHP 6 unicode semantics thread under way I am
trying to gauge what people feel about dropping support for PHP 4 at the
end of this year. That does not mean that we will not fix security
issues, we have to as the install base is too large, but that would be
the only thing that would warrant a new release. I already sort of
mentioned this on april 1st, but I think we should come with a slightly
more official statement. Your votes please (only -1 and +1 are
allowed)!regards,
Derick
Derick Rethans wrote:
Ladies, Gentlemen, Kings and Princesses,
With the nice PHP 5 / PHP 6 unicode semantics thread under way I am
trying to gauge what people feel about dropping support for PHP 4 at the
end of this year. That does not mean that we will not fix security
issues, we have to as the install base is too large, but that would be
the only thing that would warrant a new release. I already sort of
mentioned this on april 1st, but I think we should come with a slightly
more official statement. Your votes please (only -1 and +1 are
allowed)!
I'm breaking your vote only rule. I don't really understand what
dropping support means if we will still release security fixes. That's
the mode we have been in for at least a year, so what would change at
the end of the year?
Dropping support to me means PHP 4 becomes like PHP 3. No new releases
for any reason, and I don't think we can realistically do that yet.
Saying we are dropping support and then continuing on with the status
quo seems odd to me.
-Rasmus
I'm breaking your vote only rule. I don't really understand what
dropping support means if we will still release security fixes. That's
the mode we have been in for at least a year, so what would change at
the end of the year?Dropping support to me means PHP 4 becomes like PHP 3. No new releases
for any reason, and I don't think we can realistically do that yet.
Saying we are dropping support and then continuing on with the status
quo seems odd to me.
To me it means in the first place that we can add a canned answer to the bugtracker
which would say "PHP4 is not supported anymore, install PHP5" and close all PHP4 only reports.
So no bug-fixes, no releases except for ones fixing critical security problems.
And even that should be ceased either in say.. 1 or 2 years.
--
Wbr,
Antony Dovgal
Antony Dovgal wrote:
I'm breaking your vote only rule. I don't really understand what
dropping support means if we will still release security fixes. That's
the mode we have been in for at least a year, so what would change at
the end of the year?Dropping support to me means PHP 4 becomes like PHP 3. No new releases
for any reason, and I don't think we can realistically do that yet.
Saying we are dropping support and then continuing on with the status
quo seems odd to me.To me it means in the first place that we can add a canned answer to the
bugtracker which would say "PHP4 is not supported anymore, install PHP5"
and close all PHP4 only reports.So no bug-fixes, no releases except for ones fixing critical security
problems.
And even that should be ceased either in say.. 1 or 2 years.
When was the last time we did a PHP4-only bug fix?
My fear is that the impact of the no-more-support statement is hurt when
we qualify it with the fact that nothing is really changing.
I'd be more in favour of a statement that put a final death date on it
which means no new releases of any sort. We could still say
security-fixes only by the end of the year and then death by 08/08/08 or
something like that.
-Rasmus
To me it means in the first place that we can add a canned answer to the
bugtracker which would say "PHP4 is not supported anymore, install PHP5"
and close all PHP4 only reports.So no bug-fixes, no releases except for ones fixing critical security
problems.
And even that should be ceased either in say.. 1 or 2 years.When was the last time we did a PHP4-only bug fix?
Doesn't matter, we still have many of PHP4-only reports which nobody is going to look in anyway.
Also it wasn't that long ago:
- Fixed bug #38798 (OpenSSL init corrected in php5 but not in php4). (Tony)
My fear is that the impact of the no-more-support statement is hurt when
we qualify it with the fact that nothing is really changing.
Well, I explained what should change in the first place - no more PHP4 reports.
If you're unable to reproduce it with PHP5 - sorry, we can't help you.
I'd be more in favour of a statement that put a final death date on it
which means no new releases of any sort. We could still say
security-fixes only by the end of the year and then death by 08/08/08 or
something like that.
Yup, that's exactly what I said in my e-mail.
--
Wbr,
Antony Dovgal
To me it means in the first place that we can add a canned answer to the
bugtracker which would say "PHP4 is not supported anymore, install PHP5"
and close all PHP4 only reports.So no bug-fixes, no releases except for ones fixing critical security
problems.
And even that should be ceased either in say.. 1 or 2 years.When was the last time we did a PHP4-only bug fix?
Doesn't matter, we still have many of PHP4-only reports which nobody is going to look in anyway.
Also it wasn't that long ago:
- Fixed bug #38798 (OpenSSL init corrected in php5 but not in php4). (Tony)
My fear is that the impact of the no-more-support statement is hurt when
we qualify it with the fact that nothing is really changing.Well, I explained what should change in the first place - no more PHP4 reports.
If you're unable to reproduce it with PHP5 - sorry, we can't help you.I'd be more in favour of a statement that put a final death date on it
which means no new releases of any sort. We could still say
security-fixes only by the end of the year and then death by 08/08/08 or
something like that.
Well the initial question was to drop it but not kill it, if there
would be another vote for killing it completely, I am totally 100% for
it. 21st century... moving on.
Yup, that's exactly what I said in my e-mail.
--
Wbr,
Antony Dovgal--
--
David Coallier,
Founder & Software Architect,
Agora Production (http://agoraproduction.com)
51.42.06.70.18
Nevermind the wording, just as soon as we just put a notice on php.net that the
"end is near, prepare yourselves" the sooner hosting companies, etc. realize the
end is really near.. :)
I'd be more for dropping all support whatsoever by the end of this year and
focus totally on PHP 5/6. Critical security fixes are another issue altogether.
--Jani
Rasmus Lerdorf kirjoitti:
Antony Dovgal wrote:
I'm breaking your vote only rule. I don't really understand what
dropping support means if we will still release security fixes. That's
the mode we have been in for at least a year, so what would change at
the end of the year?Dropping support to me means PHP 4 becomes like PHP 3. No new releases
for any reason, and I don't think we can realistically do that yet.
Saying we are dropping support and then continuing on with the status
quo seems odd to me.
To me it means in the first place that we can add a canned answer to the
bugtracker which would say "PHP4 is not supported anymore, install PHP5"
and close all PHP4 only reports.So no bug-fixes, no releases except for ones fixing critical security
problems.
And even that should be ceased either in say.. 1 or 2 years.When was the last time we did a PHP4-only bug fix?
My fear is that the impact of the no-more-support statement is hurt when
we qualify it with the fact that nothing is really changing.I'd be more in favour of a statement that put a final death date on it
which means no new releases of any sort. We could still say
security-fixes only by the end of the year and then death by 08/08/08 or
something like that.-Rasmus
I'd be more for dropping all support whatsoever by the end of this year
and focus totally on PHP 5/6. Critical security fixes are another issue
altogether.
We already are focused on 5/6. When the last time on the list was
anything php 4 discussed that wasn't security fix? Almost all the
discussion now is PHP 5/6.
Stanislav Malyshev, Zend Software Architect
stas@zend.com http://www.zend.com/
(408)253-8829 MSN: stas@zend.com
So why keep supporting PHP 4 then?
Stanislav Malyshev kirjoitti:
I'd be more for dropping all support whatsoever by the end of this
year and focus totally on PHP 5/6. Critical security fixes are another
issue altogether.We already are focused on 5/6. When the last time on the list was
anything php 4 discussed that wasn't security fix? Almost all the
discussion now is PHP 5/6.
So why keep supporting PHP 4 then?
Because people still use it. Yes, I know it's circular argument, but I
don't think we should break the circle just yet. I think the best would
be to have phase out plan (which should be officially out - like on
php.net etc. - ASAP) which would give enough time (like a year or more)
for everybody to move. And I know year seems very long time, but for
moving big project it isn't that long.
Stanislav Malyshev, Zend Software Architect
stas@zend.com http://www.zend.com/
(408)253-8829 MSN: stas@zend.com
+1
I thought you're doing it too late. PHP5 was released in 2004 and
until now the adoption is very slow. If you don't break PHP4 support
and "force" companies to update it to PHP5, the reason for existence
of PHP5 is useless.
Have you ever asked yourselves... why? why PHP5's adoption is so bad?
I have my arguments. One of them is because you keep mantaining PHP4
for a long time.
If you had "found a very dangerous issue in PHP4 that could not be
resolved without moving to PHP5", I think the adoption would be
greater. Information is everything and manipulating people's fears is
a good way to force people to do what you want. As long as you "found"
the issue, too many hosting companies would drop PHP4 support afraid
of being hacked.
Ok, maybe I'm divagating too much, but you can't say that keeping PHP4
support is not one of the reasons for companies not update.
My suggestion is that you notify everybody through a main php.net news
inclusion to update them that you will be killing PHP4 support at the
end of the year. It's good, clear and everyone knows you're already
working on another version of PHP. So, why keep mantainance of 3 PHP
versions?
That's what I have to say. =)
Cheers,
So why keep supporting PHP 4 then?
Stanislav Malyshev kirjoitti:
I'd be more for dropping all support whatsoever by the end of this
year and focus totally on PHP 5/6. Critical security fixes are another
issue altogether.We already are focused on 5/6. When the last time on the list was
anything php 4 discussed that wasn't security fix? Almost all the
discussion now is PHP 5/6.--
--
Guilherme Blanco - Web Developer
CBC - Certified Bindows Consultant
Cell Phone: +55 (16) 9166-6902
MSN: guilhermeblanco@hotmail.com
URL: http://blog.bisna.com
São Carlos - SP/Brazil
Have you ever asked yourselves... why? why PHP5's adoption is so bad?
I think we have all asked that very same question and the answer is a mix of
a few standard issues. The hard part has always been deciding how to move it
forward. Without the customers demanding change hosts wont do it, without
the hosts support application developers are reluctant to move to PHP 5 only
versions.
One of the issue's cited was lack of popular opensource projects supporting
PHP 5, maybe we should all encourage our favorite packages to sign up to
http://gophp5.org/ as this seems like an interesting idea on how to speed up
the migration.
Regards
Marco
Marco wrote:
Have you ever asked yourselves... why? why PHP5's adoption is so bad?
I think we have all asked that very same question and the answer is a mix
of a few standard issues. The hard part has always been deciding how to
move it forward. Without the customers demanding change hosts wont do it,
without the hosts support application developers are reluctant to move to
PHP 5 only versions.One of the issue's cited was lack of popular opensource projects
supporting PHP 5, maybe we should all encourage our favorite packages to
sign up to http://gophp5.org/ as this seems like an interesting idea on
how to speed up the migration.Regards
Marco
Thanks for the mention, Marco. :-)
Yes, there is a growing push from open source projects to drop PHP 4 support
anyway. By this time next year I expect that the majority of the major
projects to all require PHP 5 or doing so very soon. This would be a very
good time to announce the pending end of PHP 4 support, whatever the date
for it is.
On the subject of stats, something else I've run across while moderating web
hosts for GoPHP5 listing is that there are zillions that offer PHP 5. Many
offer PHP 5 and PHP 4, including the really big hosts, defaulting to PHP 4
with an .htaccess toggle (or similar) to get to PHP 5. Most people don't
use that, however, because the apps they're using only require PHP 4
(because the developers believe PHP 4 is too prevalent). My gut feeling at
this point is that deprecating PHP 4 is not as onerous as it might seem
just from the Nexen stats; the hosts are already ready.
Oh yes, and hi list!
--
Larry Garfield AIM: LOLG42
larry@garfieldtech.com ICQ: 6817012
I have my arguments. One of them is because you keep mantaining PHP4
for a long time.
If you had "found a very dangerous issue in PHP4 that could not be
resolved without moving to PHP5", I think the adoption would be
greater. Information is everything and manipulating people's fears is
a good way to force people to do what you want. As long as you "found"
the issue, too many hosting companies would drop PHP4 support afraid
of being hacked.
If you start lying in order to prove your point, you lose.
--
Tomas
I've found that to be true also. Lying to people who use your product
will only lead to the downfall of your product. Just set a deadline and
draw the hard line in the sand.
Anton C. Swartz IV
Phoenix Edge Network L.L.C. - Owner
PHPLogic Development Services – Co-Owner
Based in Indianapolis, IN
"The Opposite of war is not Peace it is Creation."
Don't let sin rule your body. After all, your body is bound to die, so
dont obey its desires or let any part of it become slave to evil. Give
yourselves to God, as people who have been raised from death to life.
Make every part of your body a slavethat pleases God. Don't let sin keep
ruling your lives.You are ruled by God's Kindness and not by the law.
Romans 6:12-14
Tomas Kuliavas wrote:
I have my arguments. One of them is because you keep mantaining PHP4
for a long time.
If you had "found a very dangerous issue in PHP4 that could not be
resolved without moving to PHP5", I think the adoption would be
greater. Information is everything and manipulating people's fears is
a good way to force people to do what you want. As long as you "found"
the issue, too many hosting companies would drop PHP4 support afraid
of being hacked.If you start lying in order to prove your point, you lose.
I was just playing with the idea, I would not like to see core team lying too.
Currently I work with both PHP versions and I had to structure all my
code to be compatible with both versions. As you all know, it's really
difficult to keep things working without any trouble on these
versions.
I am, like you all interested to see PHP5 growing in a faster adoption. =)
I was just kidding with the "issue" idea. =)
Cheers,
I have my arguments. One of them is because you keep mantaining PHP4
for a long time.
If you had "found a very dangerous issue in PHP4 that could not be
resolved without moving to PHP5", I think the adoption would be
greater. Information is everything and manipulating people's fears is
a good way to force people to do what you want. As long as you "found"
the issue, too many hosting companies would drop PHP4 support afraid
of being hacked.If you start lying in order to prove your point, you lose.
--
Tomas--
--
Guilherme Blanco - Web Developer
CBC - Certified Bindows Consultant
Cell Phone: +55 (16) 9166-6902
MSN: guilhermeblanco@hotmail.com
URL: http://blog.bisna.com
São Carlos - SP/Brazil
+1
Guilherme Blanco schrieb:
Have you ever asked yourselves... why? why PHP5's adoption is so bad?
it was badly advertised!
most people don't even know how much faster it is!
to say nothing about of all the new features not known by most developers!
(of course - most people here now them)
last but not least the missing functionality to easily setup used PHP
version per directory ... giving hosters the tool to make their customers an
easy way to adopt/test their sites ...
--
Sebastian Mendel
Sebastian Mendel wrote:
Guilherme Blanco schrieb:
Have you ever asked yourselves... why? why PHP5's adoption is so bad?
it was badly advertised!
most people don't even know how much faster it is!
Is it really faster? From what I've read over the past few years the
general opinion is that it's slower. I'd be interested in any material
you have to back up that statement.
-Stut
Stut schrieb:
Sebastian Mendel wrote:
Guilherme Blanco schrieb:
Have you ever asked yourselves... why? why PHP5's adoption is so bad?
it was badly advertised!
most people don't even know how much faster it is!
Is it really faster? From what I've read over the past few years the
^^
general opinion is that it's slower. I'd be interested in any material
you have to back up that statement.
while moving from 4 to 5(.2) i had setup 4 as mod and 5 as CGI, i always
print out execution at the bottom of my page - in overall PHP 5 was 10% to
15% faster than PHP 4 ... even as CGI
--
Sebastian Mendel
+1
Guilherme Blanco schrieb:
Have you ever asked yourselves... why? why PHP5's adoption is so bad?
it was badly advertised!
most people don't even know how much faster it is!
to say nothing about of all the new features not known by most
developers!
(of course - most people here now them)
well actually php 5.0 was slower for many things .. objects where
slightly faster. 5.1 and now 5.2 bring the performance/quality up to
where things where with php 4 at the time.
regards,
Lukas
+1
Guilherme Blanco schrieb:
Have you ever asked yourselves... why? why PHP5's adoption is so bad?
it was badly advertised!
most people don't even know how much faster it is!
to say nothing about of all the new features not known by most
developers!
(of course - most people here now them)well actually php 5.0 was slower for many things .. objects where
slightly faster. 5.1 and now 5.2 bring the performance/quality up to
where things where with php 4 at the time.
Fun :)) After 4 years php5 is now as fast as php4 :O
regards,
Lukas--
--
David Coallier,
Founder & Software Architect,
Agora Production (http://agoraproduction.com)
51.42.06.70.18
+1
Guilherme Blanco schrieb:
Have you ever asked yourselves... why? why PHP5's adoption is
so bad?it was badly advertised!
most people don't even know how much faster it is!
to say nothing about of all the new features not known by most
developers!
(of course - most people here now them)well actually php 5.0 was slower for many things .. objects where
slightly faster. 5.1 and now 5.2 bring the performance/quality up to
where things where with php 4 at the time.Fun :)) After 4 years php5 is now as fast as php4 :O
well now i would assume its faster ... especially since the amount of
OO happy code has increased. the last round of benchmarks i remember
showed 5.1 to be more or less on par or faster. so now with 5.2 i
would hope that we are now mostly faster across the board. would be
nice to have performance regression measurement as part of the test
suite.
regards,
Lukas
Guilherme Blanco schrieb:
Have you ever asked yourselves... why? why PHP5's adoption is so
bad?it was badly advertised!
most people don't even know how much faster it is! to say nothing
about of all the new features not known by most developers! (of
course - most people here now them)well actually php 5.0 was slower for many things .. objects where
slightly faster. 5.1 and now 5.2 bring the performance/quality up to
where things where with php 4 at the time.
Actually, in some of our tests some of our code running on PHP 5 is just
as fast as the code on PHP 4+APC. That's heavy OO though.
Derick
Rasmus Lerdorf wrote:
I'd be more in favour of a statement that put a final death date on it
which means no new releases of any sort. We could still say
security-fixes only by the end of the year and then death by 08/08/08 or
something like that.
+1
The final PHP 4 patch date should be relative to the release date of
PHP 6, e.g. 6 months after PHP 6 is released.
--
Christopher Jones, Oracle
Email: christopher.jones@oracle.com Tel: +1 650 506 8630
Blog: http://blogs.oracle.com/opal/ PHP Book: http://tinyurl.com/f8jad
Rasmus Lerdorf wrote:
I'd be more in favour of a statement that put a final death date on it
which means no new releases of any sort. We could still say
security-fixes only by the end of the year and then death by 08/08/08 or
something like that.+1
The final PHP 4 patch date should be relative to the release date of
PHP 6, e.g. 6 months after PHP 6 is released.
If you do this, what is the reason for PHP5 existance?
So, I would just move from PHP4 to PHP6.
PHP5 was something that should be erased from everyone's mind?
PHP6 adoption will be slow because you'll keep PHP5 support for a
longer time and etc, etc, etc.
The point here is how much time should you support an older version?
IMHO, the ideal time is 2 years. One year to stable the version
(remembering from first versions of PHP5) and another year for
projects being updated (considering big projects here).
As you can see, PHP4 is being supported for 3 years after the launch of PHP5.
--
Christopher Jones, Oracle
Email: christopher.jones@oracle.com Tel: +1 650 506 8630
Blog: http://blogs.oracle.com/opal/ PHP Book: http://tinyurl.com/f8jad--
--
Guilherme Blanco - Web Developer
CBC - Certified Bindows Consultant
Cell Phone: +55 (16) 9166-6902
MSN: guilhermeblanco@hotmail.com
URL: http://blog.bisna.com
São Carlos - SP/Brazil
To me it means in the first place that we can add a canned answer to the
bugtracker
which would say "PHP4 is not supported anymore, install PHP5" and close
all PHP4 only reports.So no bug-fixes, no releases except for ones fixing critical security
problems.
And even that should be ceased either in say.. 1 or 2 years.
Also I would suggest removing links to PHP4 downloads away from the front
page on the php.net site and maybe put them onto the museum site?
Regards
Marco
To me it means in the first place that we can add a canned answer to the
bugtracker
which would say "PHP4 is not supported anymore, install PHP5" and close
all PHP4 only reports.So no bug-fixes, no releases except for ones fixing critical security
problems.
And even that should be ceased either in say.. 1 or 2 years.Also I would suggest removing links to PHP4 downloads away from the front
page on the php.net site and maybe put them onto the museum site?
+1 -- to the suggestion of moving links to be from the museum site.
--
Alain Williams
Linux Consultant - Mail systems, Web sites, Networking, Programmer, IT Lecturer.
+44 (0) 787 668 0256 http://www.phcomp.co.uk/
Parliament Hill Computers Ltd. Registration Information: http://www.phcomp.co.uk/contact.php
#include <std_disclaimer.h
My 2 cents:
Before you guys are making any changes in the maintenance process, I
think the end goal (dropping PHP4 support) can happen a lot smoother
with good communication. You can start today by stating really clear on
www.php.net that PHP4 support is going to be dropped in the future and
considered 'old',
also to Marco's point .. putting the downloads in the museum site will
be a really clear statement even though you don't actually have to drop
support for PHP4 till some time in the future..
Reading other people's comments it looks like getting people to switch
to PHP5, but also remain faithful and supporting to your community is
dear to people. The first step to achieve both is to change your
communication, not the actual maintenance process.
Evert
Marco wrote:
Also I would suggest removing links to PHP4 downloads away from the front
page on the php.net site and maybe put them onto the museum site?Regards
Marco
Derick Rethans wrote:
Ladies, Gentlemen, Kings and Princesses,
With the nice PHP 5 / PHP 6 unicode semantics thread under way I am
trying to gauge what people feel about dropping support for PHP 4 at the
end of this year. That does not mean that we will not fix security
issues, we have to as the install base is too large, but that would be
the only thing that would warrant a new release. I already sort of
mentioned this on april 1st, but I think we should come with a slightly
more official statement. Your votes please (only -1 and +1 are
allowed)!I'm breaking your vote only rule. I don't really understand what
dropping support means if we will still release security fixes. That's
the mode we have been in for at least a year, so what would change at
the end of the year?
Actually, that's not the current mode. Normal bug fixes are backported
as well at this moment. Dropping support would mean that we won't do
that anymore.
Dropping support to me means PHP 4 becomes like PHP 3. No new releases
for any reason, and I don't think we can realistically do that yet.
Saying we are dropping support and then continuing on with the status
quo seems odd to me.
Besides it not being totally the same, I think that giving out a
statement "No more bug fixes after 2007-12-31" and "No more security
fixes after 2008-08-08" gives a very clear statement that it's the end
for PHP 4. That will perhaps drive the increase of PHP 5.2 support, and
that should be our main goal as we can not keep supporting PHP 4 for
ever.
regards,
Derick
+1
Anton C. Swartz IV
Phoenix Edge Network L.L.C. - Owner
PHPLogic Development Services – Co-Owner
Based in Indianapolis, IN
"The Opposite of war is not Peace it is Creation."
Don't let sin rule your body. After all, your body is bound to die, so
dont obey its desires or let any part of it become slave to evil. Give
yourselves to God, as people who have been raised from death to life.
Make every part of your body a slavethat pleases God. Don't let sin keep
ruling your lives.You are ruled by God's Kindness and not by the law.
Romans 6:12-14
Derick Rethans wrote:
Derick Rethans wrote:
Ladies, Gentlemen, Kings and Princesses,
With the nice PHP 5 / PHP 6 unicode semantics thread under way I am
trying to gauge what people feel about dropping support for PHP 4 at the
end of this year. That does not mean that we will not fix security
issues, we have to as the install base is too large, but that would be
the only thing that would warrant a new release. I already sort of
mentioned this on april 1st, but I think we should come with a slightly
more official statement. Your votes please (only -1 and +1 are
allowed)!I'm breaking your vote only rule. I don't really understand what
dropping support means if we will still release security fixes. That's
the mode we have been in for at least a year, so what would change at
the end of the year?Actually, that's not the current mode. Normal bug fixes are backported
as well at this moment. Dropping support would mean that we won't do
that anymore.Dropping support to me means PHP 4 becomes like PHP 3. No new releases
for any reason, and I don't think we can realistically do that yet.
Saying we are dropping support and then continuing on with the status
quo seems odd to me.Besides it not being totally the same, I think that giving out a
statement "No more bug fixes after 2007-12-31" and "No more security
fixes after 2008-08-08" gives a very clear statement that it's the end
for PHP 4. That will perhaps drive the increase of PHP 5.2 support, and
that should be our main goal as we can not keep supporting PHP 4 for
ever.regards,
Derick
Derick Rethans wrote:
Ladies, Gentlemen, Kings and Princesses,
With the nice PHP 5 / PHP 6 unicode semantics thread under way I am
trying to gauge what people feel about dropping support for PHP 4 at the
end of this year. That does not mean that we will not fix security
issues, we have to as the install base is too large, but that would be
the only thing that would warrant a new release. I already sort of
mentioned this on april 1st, but I think we should come with a slightly
more official statement. Your votes please (only -1 and +1 are
allowed)!regards,
Derick
+1
--
Brian Moon
Senior Developer
http://dealnews.com/
It's good to be cheap =)
+1
--
Mikko Koppanen
Ladies, Gentlemen, Kings and Princesses,
With the nice PHP 5 / PHP 6 unicode semantics thread under way I am
trying to gauge what people feel about dropping support for PHP 4 at the
end of this year. That does not mean that we will not fix security
issues, we have to as the install base is too large, but that would be
the only thing that would warrant a new release. I already sort of
mentioned this on april 1st, but I think we should come with a slightly
more official statement. Your votes please (only -1 and +1 are
allowed)!regards,
Derick
With the nice PHP 5 / PHP 6 unicode semantics thread under way I am
trying to gauge what people feel about dropping support for PHP 4 at the
end of this year. That does not mean that we will not fix security
-1. We still need to do security fixes, and I think we still need to do
important non-security fixes too. And that's more or less what we are
doing now, so no "dropping" is possible while keeping that.
Stanislav Malyshev, Zend Software Architect
stas@zend.com http://www.zend.com/
(408)253-8829 MSN: stas@zend.com
+1
--
e-novative> - We make IT work for you.
e-novative GmbH - HR: Amtsgericht München HRB 139407
Sitz: Wolfratshausen - GF: Dipl. Inform. Stefan Priebsch
Ladies, Gentlemen, Kings and Princesses,
With the nice PHP 5 / PHP 6 unicode semantics thread under way I am
trying to gauge what people feel about dropping support for PHP 4 at the
end of this year.
+1
Regards
Marco
+1
Dmitry.
-----Original Message-----
From: Derick Rethans [mailto:derick@php.net]
Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 6:33 PM
To: PHP Developers Mailing List
Subject: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?Ladies, Gentlemen, Kings and Princesses,
With the nice PHP 5 / PHP 6 unicode semantics thread under way I am
trying to gauge what people feel about dropping support for
PHP 4 at the
end of this year. That does not mean that we will not fix security
issues, we have to as the install base is too large, but that
would be
the only thing that would warrant a new release. I already sort of
mentioned this on april 1st, but I think we should come with
a slightly
more official statement. Your votes please (only -1 and +1 are
allowed)!regards,
Derick
+1
Ladies, Gentlemen, Kings and Princesses,
With the nice PHP 5 / PHP 6 unicode semantics thread under way I am
trying to gauge what people feel about dropping support for PHP 4
at the
end of this year. That does not mean that we will not fix security
issues, we have to as the install base is too large, but that would be
the only thing that would warrant a new release. I already sort of
mentioned this on april 1st, but I think we should come with a
slightly
more official statement. Your votes please (only -1 and +1 are
allowed)!regards,
Derick--
Ilia Alshanetsky
Ladies, Gentlemen, Kings and Princesses,
With the nice PHP 5 / PHP 6 unicode semantics thread under way I am
trying to gauge what people feel about dropping support for PHP 4
at the
end of this year. That does not mean that we will not fix security
issues, we have to as the install base is too large, but that would be
the only thing that would warrant a new release. I already sort of
mentioned this on april 1st, but I think we should come with a
slightly
more official statement. Your votes please (only -1 and +1 are
allowed)!regards,
Derick
+1
-- Gwynne, Daughter of the Code
"This whole world is an asylum for the incurable."
Derick Rethans said:
Ladies, Gentlemen, Kings and Princesses,
With the nice PHP 5 / PHP 6 unicode semantics thread under
way I am trying to gauge what people feel about dropping
support for PHP 4 at the end of this year. That does not mean
that we will not fix security issues, we have to as the
install base is too large, but that would be the only thing
that would warrant a new release. I already sort of mentioned
this on april 1st, but I think we should come with a slightly
more official statement. Your votes please (only -1 and +1
are allowed)!
+1, served me well, RIP... Amen.
Best regards
Mike Robinson
Do we also log the number of downloads of each PHP version? That would
be interesting to see how much it is downloaded, as there are a lot of
shared hosts that do not update their PHP version at all, I have a
host which is still running php-4.3.4, and doesn't want to upgrade,
and is probably going to use this for a few years, no matter if
development is going on or not.
Tijnema
Vote for PHP Color Coding in Gmail! -> http://gpcc.tijnema.info
Ladies, Gentlemen, Kings and Princesses,
With the nice PHP 5 / PHP 6 unicode semantics thread under way I am
trying to gauge what people feel about dropping support for PHP 4
at the
end of this year. That does not mean that we will not fix security
issues, we have to as the install base is too large, but that would be
the only thing that would warrant a new release. I already sort of
mentioned this on april 1st, but I think we should come with a
slightly
more official statement. Your votes please (only -1 and +1 are
allowed)!
+1
Ladies, Gentlemen, Kings and Princesses,
With the nice PHP 5 / PHP 6 unicode semantics thread under way I am
trying to gauge what people feel about dropping support for PHP 4 at the
end of this year. That does not mean that we will not fix security
issues, we have to as the install base is too large, but that would be
the only thing that would warrant a new release. I already sort of
mentioned this on april 1st, but I think we should come with a slightly
more official statement. Your votes please (only -1 and +1 are
allowed)!
+1 if we really kill it. That means no more release. If we keep
release it, it is still maintained like what we did until now (99.99%
sec fixes only).
--Pierre
-1
Ladies, Gentlemen, Kings and Princesses,
With the nice PHP 5 / PHP 6 unicode semantics thread under way I am
trying to gauge what people feel about dropping support for PHP 4 at the
end of this year. That does not mean that we will not fix security
issues, we have to as the install base is too large, but that would be
the only thing that would warrant a new release. I already sort of
mentioned this on april 1st, but I think we should come with a slightly
more official statement. Your votes please (only -1 and +1 are
allowed)!regards,
Derick--
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Service provided by hitOmeter.NET internet messaging!
.
+1
Ladies, Gentlemen, Kings and Princesses,
With the nice PHP 5 / PHP 6 unicode semantics thread under way I am
trying to gauge what people feel about dropping support for PHP 4 at the
end of this year. That does not mean that we will not fix security
issues, we have to as the install base is too large, but that would be
the only thing that would warrant a new release. I already sort of
mentioned this on april 1st, but I think we should come with a slightly
more official statement. Your votes please (only -1 and +1 are
allowed)!regards,
Derick--
--
Joseph Crawford Jr.
Zend Certified Engineer
Codebowl Solutions, Inc.
http://www.codebowl.com/
Blog: http://www.josephcrawford.com/
1-802-671-2021
codebowl@gmail.com
+1
+1
Ladies, Gentlemen, Kings and Princesses,
With the nice PHP 5 / PHP 6 unicode semantics thread under way I am
trying to gauge what people feel about dropping support for PHP 4
at the
end of this year. That does not mean that we will not fix security
issues, we have to as the install base is too large, but that
would be
the only thing that would warrant a new release. I already sort of
mentioned this on april 1st, but I think we should come with a
slightly
more official statement. Your votes please (only -1 and +1 are
allowed)!regards,
Derick--
--
Joseph Crawford Jr.
Zend Certified Engineer
Codebowl Solutions, Inc.
http://www.codebowl.com/
Blog: http://www.josephcrawford.com/
1-802-671-2021
codebowl@gmail.com
Darrell Brogdon
darrell@brogdon.net
http://darrell.brogdon.net
** Prepare for PHP Certication! **
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