Guys,
I know I'm a late bloomer on this one, but when did we discuss the
discontinuation of ze1 compatibility mode within the 5.x branch? I
recall we agreed to remove it for 6.0, but removing such a thing in
5.x seems very counterintuitive and counterproductive.
If anybody can point me to a discussion that took place I'll (do my
bes to) shut up.
Zeev
I know I'm a late bloomer on this one, but when did we discuss the
discontinuation of ze1 compatibility mode within the 5.x branch? I recall we
agreed to remove it for 6.0, but removing such a thing in 5.x seems very
counterintuitive and counterproductive.
As a coincidence I tried to run some of our code with this mode on in
5.1.4... crash within the first few lines on some clone... so I'm not so
sure how counterintuitive it is to get rid of it ;-)
Derick
--
Derick Rethans
http://derickrethans.nl | http://ez.no | http://xdebug.org
Derick Rethans wrote:
I know I'm a late bloomer on this one, but when did we discuss the
discontinuation of ze1 compatibility mode within the 5.x branch? I recall we
agreed to remove it for 6.0, but removing such a thing in 5.x seems very
counterintuitive and counterproductive.As a coincidence I tried to run some of our code with this mode on in
5.1.4... crash within the first few lines on some clone... so I'm not so
sure how counterintuitive it is to get rid of it ;-)
Lost of people haven't made the step from PHP4 to PHP5 yet and the
compatibility mode was one of the tools for this. Removing it is
certainly a big BC break for people who are relying on it right now. It
might have crashed with your code but it could have worked with others.
On the other hand we tried to use it here and it didn't really help us.
I think what would really help is a tool or mode where the dangerous
spots in the code could be more easily located. One thing could be a way
of annotating a class that produces a notice for $a = $b where $b is an
instance of this class. This is just brainstorming and maybe not that
useful after all but I don't think the migration path is easy enough as
it is.
- Chris
Hello Zeev,
See here: http://oss.backendmedia.com/PhP52
12. 4. Drop ZE1 compatibility Done (marcus)
And here:
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=php-dev&m=114695447815299&w=2
Usually we just direct these kinds of questions with 'check the archives'
:-)
regards
marcus
Tuesday, May 23, 2006, 2:46:40 AM, you wrote:
Guys,
I know I'm a late bloomer on this one, but when did we discuss the
discontinuation of ze1 compatibility mode within the 5.x branch? I
recall we agreed to remove it for 6.0, but removing such a thing in
5.x seems very counterintuitive and counterproductive.
If anybody can point me to a discussion that took place I'll (do my
bes to) shut up.
Zeev
Best regards,
Marcus
At 21:29 23/05/2006, Marcus Boerger wrote:
Hello Zeev,
See here: http://oss.backendmedia.com/PhP52
12. 4. Drop ZE1 compatibility Done (marcus)
(Sorry for the slow response, I'm traveling)
Yeah that's fine, but it was never discussed at all let alone decided
upon... IMHO it doesn't make sense to remove that in PHP 5.x - it's
not a great feature, but some people are using it, and we're not
gaining anything from making their lives more difficult.
Can you please revert this patch, and only remove it in PHP 6.0 as we agreed?
Zeev
Hello Zeev,
Thursday, May 25, 2006, 1:04:59 PM, you wrote:
At 21:29 23/05/2006, Marcus Boerger wrote:
Hello Zeev,
See here: http://oss.backendmedia.com/PhP52
12. 4. Drop ZE1 compatibility Done (marcus)
(Sorry for the slow response, I'm traveling)
Yeah that's fine, but it was never discussed at all let alone decided
upon... IMHO it doesn't make sense to remove that in PHP 5.x - it's
not a great feature, but some people are using it, and we're not
gaining anything from making their lives more difficult.
Can you please revert this patch, and only remove it in PHP 6.0 as we agreed?
No i cannot. And there was an open discussion. And you weren't intersted at
that time.
Best regards,
Marcus
At 23:44 25/05/2006, Marcus Boerger wrote:
Hello Zeev,
Thursday, May 25, 2006, 1:04:59 PM, you wrote:
At 21:29 23/05/2006, Marcus Boerger wrote:
Hello Zeev,
See here: http://oss.backendmedia.com/PhP52
12. 4. Drop ZE1 compatibility Done (marcus)(Sorry for the slow response, I'm traveling)
Yeah that's fine, but it was never discussed at all let alone decided
upon... IMHO it doesn't make sense to remove that in PHP 5.x - it's
not a great feature, but some people are using it, and we're not
gaining anything from making their lives more difficult.Can you please revert this patch, and only remove it in PHP 6.0
as we agreed?No i cannot. And there was an open discussion. And you weren't intersted at
that time.
As I said, can you point me to that open discussion? I found no
references to it of any sort. The first email that mentioned it is
from Ilia, listing a list of things for PHP 5.2, with this among
them. Just in case it's not clear, that does not constitute discussion :)
Zeev
Hello Zeev,
Thursday, May 25, 2006, 11:51:44 PM, you wrote:
At 23:44 25/05/2006, Marcus Boerger wrote:
Hello Zeev,
Thursday, May 25, 2006, 1:04:59 PM, you wrote:
At 21:29 23/05/2006, Marcus Boerger wrote:
Hello Zeev,
See here: http://oss.backendmedia.com/PhP52
12. 4. Drop ZE1 compatibility Done (marcus)(Sorry for the slow response, I'm traveling)
Yeah that's fine, but it was never discussed at all let alone decided
upon... IMHO it doesn't make sense to remove that in PHP 5.x - it's
not a great feature, but some people are using it, and we're not
gaining anything from making their lives more difficult.Can you please revert this patch, and only remove it in PHP 6.0
as we agreed?No i cannot. And there was an open discussion. And you weren't intersted at
that time.
As I said, can you point me to that open discussion? I found no
references to it of any sort. The first email that mentioned it is
from Ilia, listing a list of things for PHP 5.2, with this among
them. Just in case it's not clear, that does not constitute discussion :)
What does, if you agree or anybody else in particular? We have put it
on our todo and i acted on behalf of that. And for the same reson that
i dropped E_STRICT from E_ALL i am not reverting that patch. Sorry but
it has been the php way the silent acceptance. I would really like to
change to a more formal way which is why i really really like stuff
like the above mentioned site.
Best regards,
Marcus
I can't find any references to a discussion on this either.
This change was also on the list for 6 and has been completed, would that
not be a better time to do this?
-bok
Hello Zeev,
Thursday, May 25, 2006, 11:51:44 PM, you wrote:
At 23:44 25/05/2006, Marcus Boerger wrote:
Hello Zeev,
Thursday, May 25, 2006, 1:04:59 PM, you wrote:
At 21:29 23/05/2006, Marcus Boerger wrote:
Hello Zeev,
See here: http://oss.backendmedia.com/PhP52
12. 4. Drop ZE1 compatibility Done (marcus)(Sorry for the slow response, I'm traveling)
Yeah that's fine, but it was never discussed at all let alone decided
upon... IMHO it doesn't make sense to remove that in PHP 5.x - it's
not a great feature, but some people are using it, and we're not
gaining anything from making their lives more difficult.Can you please revert this patch, and only remove it in PHP 6.0
as we agreed?No i cannot. And there was an open discussion. And you weren't intersted
at
that time.As I said, can you point me to that open discussion? I found no
references to it of any sort. The first email that mentioned it is
from Ilia, listing a list of things for PHP 5.2, with this among
them. Just in case it's not clear, that does not constitute discussion
:)What does, if you agree or anybody else in particular? We have put it
on our todo and i acted on behalf of that. And for the same reson that
i droppedE_STRICTfromE_ALLi am not reverting that patch. Sorry but
it has been the php way the silent acceptance. I would really like to
change to a more formal way which is why i really really like stuff
like the above mentioned site.Best regards,
Marcus--
--
Xnyo - http://xnyo.odynia.org/
Hello Robert,
when we first wrote the 6.0 list we were barely at 5.1. When we started
to work towards 5.2 we came up with a new list.
Friday, May 26, 2006, 5:38:55 AM, you wrote:
I can't find any references to a discussion on this either.
Once again it was on the list and nobody was interested.
This change was also on the list for 6 and has been completed, would that
not be a better time to do this?
-bok
Hello Zeev,
Thursday, May 25, 2006, 11:51:44 PM, you wrote:
At 23:44 25/05/2006, Marcus Boerger wrote:
Hello Zeev,
Thursday, May 25, 2006, 1:04:59 PM, you wrote:
At 21:29 23/05/2006, Marcus Boerger wrote:
Hello Zeev,
See here: http://oss.backendmedia.com/PhP52
12. 4. Drop ZE1 compatibility Done (marcus)(Sorry for the slow response, I'm traveling)
Yeah that's fine, but it was never discussed at all let alone decided
upon... IMHO it doesn't make sense to remove that in PHP 5.x - it's
not a great feature, but some people are using it, and we're not
gaining anything from making their lives more difficult.Can you please revert this patch, and only remove it in PHP 6.0
as we agreed?No i cannot. And there was an open discussion. And you weren't intersted
at
that time.As I said, can you point me to that open discussion? I found no
references to it of any sort. The first email that mentioned it is
from Ilia, listing a list of things for PHP 5.2, with this among
them. Just in case it's not clear, that does not constitute discussion
:)What does, if you agree or anybody else in particular? We have put it
on our todo and i acted on behalf of that. And for the same reson that
i droppedE_STRICTfromE_ALLi am not reverting that patch. Sorry but
it has been the php way the silent acceptance. I would really like to
change to a more formal way which is why i really really like stuff
like the above mentioned site.Best regards,
Marcus--
Best regards,
Marcus
FWIW, I don't remember a discussion on this for PHP 5 either.
--Wez.
At 23:44 25/05/2006, Marcus Boerger wrote:
Hello Zeev,
Thursday, May 25, 2006, 1:04:59 PM, you wrote:
At 21:29 23/05/2006, Marcus Boerger wrote:
Hello Zeev,
See here: http://oss.backendmedia.com/PhP52
12. 4. Drop ZE1 compatibility Done (marcus)(Sorry for the slow response, I'm traveling)
Yeah that's fine, but it was never discussed at all let alone decided
upon... IMHO it doesn't make sense to remove that in PHP 5.x - it's
not a great feature, but some people are using it, and we're not
gaining anything from making their lives more difficult.Can you please revert this patch, and only remove it in PHP 6.0
as we agreed?No i cannot. And there was an open discussion. And you weren't intersted at
that time.As I said, can you point me to that open discussion? I found no
references to it of any sort. The first email that mentioned it is
from Ilia, listing a list of things for PHP 5.2, with this among
them. Just in case it's not clear, that does not constitute discussion :)Zeev
That's because there wasn't one...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wez Furlong" kingwez@gmail.com
To: "Zeev Suraski" zeev@zend.com
Cc: "Marcus Boerger" helly@php.net; internals@lists.php.net
Sent: Friday, May 26, 2006 4:14 AM
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] ze1 compatibility mode
FWIW, I don't remember a discussion on this for PHP 5 either.
--Wez.
At 23:44 25/05/2006, Marcus Boerger wrote:
Hello Zeev,
Thursday, May 25, 2006, 1:04:59 PM, you wrote:
At 21:29 23/05/2006, Marcus Boerger wrote:
Hello Zeev,
See here: http://oss.backendmedia.com/PhP52
12. 4. Drop ZE1 compatibility Done (marcus)(Sorry for the slow response, I'm traveling)
Yeah that's fine, but it was never discussed at all let alone decided
upon... IMHO it doesn't make sense to remove that in PHP 5.x - it's
not a great feature, but some people are using it, and we're not
gaining anything from making their lives more difficult.Can you please revert this patch, and only remove it in PHP 6.0
as we agreed?No i cannot. And there was an open discussion. And you weren't intersted
at
that time.As I said, can you point me to that open discussion? I found no
references to it of any sort. The first email that mentioned it is
from Ilia, listing a list of things for PHP 5.2, with this among
them. Just in case it's not clear, that does not constitute discussion :)Zeev
Hello Steph,
i somehow get really nervous and sober on this. Please don't force
your point of view over everybody and please don't let your view be
guided by your mail filters. It has been announced long enough. And
everybody was free to reply to this.
Friday, May 26, 2006, 7:04:08 AM, you wrote:
That's because there wasn't one...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wez Furlong" kingwez@gmail.com
To: "Zeev Suraski" zeev@zend.com
Cc: "Marcus Boerger" helly@php.net; internals@lists.php.net
Sent: Friday, May 26, 2006 4:14 AM
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] ze1 compatibility mode
FWIW, I don't remember a discussion on this for PHP 5 either.
--Wez.
At 23:44 25/05/2006, Marcus Boerger wrote:
Hello Zeev,
Thursday, May 25, 2006, 1:04:59 PM, you wrote:
At 21:29 23/05/2006, Marcus Boerger wrote:
Hello Zeev,
See here: http://oss.backendmedia.com/PhP52
12. 4. Drop ZE1 compatibility Done (marcus)(Sorry for the slow response, I'm traveling)
Yeah that's fine, but it was never discussed at all let alone decided
upon... IMHO it doesn't make sense to remove that in PHP 5.x - it's
not a great feature, but some people are using it, and we're not
gaining anything from making their lives more difficult.Can you please revert this patch, and only remove it in PHP 6.0
as we agreed?No i cannot. And there was an open discussion. And you weren't intersted
at
that time.As I said, can you point me to that open discussion? I found no
references to it of any sort. The first email that mentioned it is
from Ilia, listing a list of things for PHP 5.2, with this among
them. Just in case it's not clear, that does not constitute discussion :)
Marcus,
For the sake of world peace, let's say you're absolutely
right. Let's be done with this compat mode case study.
The important point is for the future - announce compatibility
breaking changes (removal of features, major changes to features)
clearly on internals@, in a dedicated email inviting discussion. If
you get no feedback - be persistent and ask for even those that
support it to move forward and say so.
Listing it in a shopping list of new features for the next version is
important, but only after such a discussion takes place.
Zeev
At 11:46 26/05/2006, Marcus Boerger wrote:
Hello Steph,
i somehow get really nervous and sober on this. Please don't force
your point of view over everybody and please don't let your view be
guided by your mail filters. It has been announced long enough. And
everybody was free to reply to this.Friday, May 26, 2006, 7:04:08 AM, you wrote:
That's because there wasn't one...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wez Furlong" kingwez@gmail.com
To: "Zeev Suraski" zeev@zend.com
Cc: "Marcus Boerger" helly@php.net; internals@lists.php.net
Sent: Friday, May 26, 2006 4:14 AM
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] ze1 compatibility modeFWIW, I don't remember a discussion on this for PHP 5 either.
--Wez.
At 23:44 25/05/2006, Marcus Boerger wrote:
Hello Zeev,
Thursday, May 25, 2006, 1:04:59 PM, you wrote:
At 21:29 23/05/2006, Marcus Boerger wrote:
Hello Zeev,
See here: http://oss.backendmedia.com/PhP52
12. 4. Drop ZE1 compatibility Done (marcus)(Sorry for the slow response, I'm traveling)
Yeah that's fine, but it was never discussed at all let alone decided
upon... IMHO it doesn't make sense to remove that in PHP 5.x - it's
not a great feature, but some people are using it, and we're not
gaining anything from making their lives more difficult.Can you please revert this patch, and only remove it in PHP 6.0
as we agreed?No i cannot. And there was an open discussion. And you weren't intersted
at
that time.As I said, can you point me to that open discussion? I found no
references to it of any sort. The first email that mentioned it is
from Ilia, listing a list of things for PHP 5.2, with this among
them. Just in case it's not clear, that does not constitute discussion :)
Zeev Suraski wrote:
Marcus,
For the sake of world peace, let's say you're absolutely right. Let's
be done with this compat mode case study.The important point is for the future - announce compatibility breaking
changes (removal of features, major changes to features) clearly on
internals@, in a dedicated email inviting discussion. If you get no
feedback - be persistent and ask for even those that support it to move
forward and say so.Listing it in a shopping list of new features for the next version is
important, but only after such a discussion takes place.
I think such things should be listed and planned on a web page. Be that
the wiki system I put up, or some file on phpweb CVS. It should be a
place where developers (and users) can see what is under discussion,
what is decided and when to expect the change as well links to related
documentation.
That way it is easy for people to get up to speed with things and see
when what decisions were made.
regards,
Lukas
PS: I think the wiki is really showing how useful it is. I have no
problem managing ACL's for the site. However I think it would get used
even more actively if the ACL's would be derived from cvs.php.net .. It
also does not necessarily need to be a wiki, though I think its
convinient for these kinds of documents.
You mean for PHP 6? IIRC it was discussed in the Paris meeting,
which were published and discussed... I wasn't in favour of removing
it, but I think it's less of an issue with PHP 6 than it is with PHP 5.
Zeev
At 05:14 26/05/2006, Wez Furlong wrote:
FWIW, I don't remember a discussion on this for PHP 5 either.
--Wez.
At 23:44 25/05/2006, Marcus Boerger wrote:
Hello Zeev,
Thursday, May 25, 2006, 1:04:59 PM, you wrote:
At 21:29 23/05/2006, Marcus Boerger wrote:
Hello Zeev,
See here: http://oss.backendmedia.com/PhP52
12. 4. Drop ZE1 compatibility Done (marcus)(Sorry for the slow response, I'm traveling)
Yeah that's fine, but it was never discussed at all let alone decided
upon... IMHO it doesn't make sense to remove that in PHP 5.x - it's
not a great feature, but some people are using it, and we're not
gaining anything from making their lives more difficult.Can you please revert this patch, and only remove it in PHP 6.0
as we agreed?No i cannot. And there was an open discussion. And you weren't intersted at
that time.As I said, can you point me to that open discussion? I found no
references to it of any sort. The first email that mentioned it is
from Ilia, listing a list of things for PHP 5.2, with this among
them. Just in case it's not clear, that does not constitute discussion :)Zeev
It was part of the overall 5.2 change list that was sent to internals
before the 5.2 was branched.
Ilia Alshanetsky
FWIW, I don't remember a discussion on this for PHP 5 either.
--Wez.
Ah, but a list is not a discussion :)
Reminds me of a certain notice being posted in a disused bathroom
behind a door labelled "beware of the leopard", or something ;-)
I think "we" missed it because it wasn't discussed on the list, it was
just an item in a list of possible changes.
Not that I have a preference either way on this particular item, but
if things are discussed offlist, then the people proposing the changes
need to do a better job of letting the rest of us know what they have
in mind (and getting a vote on it) before they go ahead and do it.
--Wez.
It was part of the overall 5.2 change list that was sent to internals
before the 5.2 was branched.Ilia Alshanetsky
FWIW, I don't remember a discussion on this for PHP 5 either.
--Wez.