Hi all,
Apropos the Nicolas Grekas discussion on this list ...
https://externals.io/message/108111
... and on Reddit ...
https://www.reddit.com/r/PHP/comments/eoltx1/nicolas_grekas_application_to_vote_on_rfcs/
... I began to wonder who all is eligible to vote.
Looking at people.php.net to see who has karma appears insufficient. For example, Ocramius https://people.php.net/ocramius has no karma but is eligible to vote; Fabien Potencier has voted as well but has no people.php.net page.
So: is there a public listing of, or public code for deriving the list of, currently eligible voters?
--
Paul M. Jones
pmjones@pmjones.io
http://paul-m-jones.com
Modernizing Legacy Applications in PHP
https://leanpub.com/mlaphp
Solving the N+1 Problem in PHP
https://leanpub.com/sn1php
Hi all,
Apropos the Nicolas Grekas discussion on this list ...
https://externals.io/message/108111
... and on Reddit ...
https://www.reddit.com/r/PHP/comments/eoltx1/nicolas_grekas_application_to_vote_on_rfcs/
... I began to wonder who all is eligible to vote.
Looking at people.php.net to see who has karma appears insufficient. For example, Ocramius https://people.php.net/ocramius has no karma but is eligible to vote; Fabien Potencier has voted as well but has no people.php.net page.
So: is there a public listing of, or public code for deriving the list of, currently eligible voters?
Everyone with a php.net account is able to vote. The public list is here: https://people.php.net/
-Ben
Everyone with a php.net account is able to vote. The public list is here: https://people.php.net/
I don't think that's quite the case? As has been noted elsewhere, the rules are:
• People with php.net VCS accounts that have contributed code to PHP
• Representatives from the PHP community, that will be chosen by those with php.net VCS accounts
• Lead developers of PHP based projects (frameworks, cms, tools, etc.)
• regular participant of internals discussions
It's clear that the second point has not really taken hold, but the first point adds the caveat "that have contributed code to PHP", and that part does seem widely accepted.
So unless I am wrong, merely having a php.net account doesn't appear sufficient -- code or docs contributions are an additional prerequisite to getting a vote.
Ben (and others) -- your thoughts? Is it really as straightforward as "having a php.net account alone is enough to be eligible to vote" ?
--
Paul M. Jones
pmjones@pmjones.io
http://paul-m-jones.com
Modernizing Legacy Applications in PHP
https://leanpub.com/mlaphp
Solving the N+1 Problem in PHP
https://leanpub.com/sn1php
Everyone with a php.net account is able to vote. The public list is here: https://people.php.net/
I don't think that's quite the case? As has been noted elsewhere, the rules are:
• People with php.net VCS accounts that have contributed code to PHP
• Representatives from the PHP community, that will be chosen by those with php.net VCS accounts
• Lead developers of PHP based projects (frameworks, cms, tools, etc.)
• regular participant of internals discussionsIt's clear that the second point has not really taken hold, but the first point adds the caveat "that have contributed code to PHP", and that part does seem widely accepted.
So unless I am wrong, merely having a php.net account doesn't appear sufficient -- code or docs contributions are an additional prerequisite to getting a vote.
Ben (and others) -- your thoughts? Is it really as straightforward as "having a php.net account alone is enough to be eligible to vote” ?
I wasn’t answering based on the rules. My answer is based on practice. AFAIK, everyone with a php.net account also has access to the wiki (you log into the wiki using your php.net account), and therefore, also has the ability to vote on RFCs.
Maybe there are some who have access to the wiki without a php.net account, and maybe there are some who can access the wiki who can’t vote. Whomever has admin access on the wiki can provide more information.
-Ben
Ben (and others) -- your thoughts? Is it really as straightforward as "having a php.net account alone is enough to be eligible to vote” ?
I wasn’t answering based on the rules. My answer is based on practice.
Sure, though that practice has to be codified somewhere, otherwise there'd be no way for the wiki voting plugin to figure out who's allowed to vote.
AFAIK, everyone with a php.net account also has access to the wiki (you log into the wiki using your php.net account), and therefore, also has the ability to vote on RFCs.
"As far as you know" is fine, but it would be nice to hear something more authoritative ...
Whomever has admin access on the wiki can provide more information.
... as you note.
Can anyone besides Ben provide some insight here, perhaps even point to the code that determines if a wiki user is allowed to vote?
--
Paul M. Jones
pmjones@pmjones.io
http://paul-m-jones.com
Modernizing Legacy Applications in PHP
https://leanpub.com/mlaphp
Solving the N+1 Problem in PHP
https://leanpub.com/sn1php
Everyone with a php.net account is able to vote. The public list is here: https://people.php.net/
I don't think that's quite the case? As has been noted elsewhere, the rules are:
• People with php.net VCS accounts that have contributed code to PHP
• Representatives from the PHP community, that will be chosen by those with php.net VCS accounts
• Lead developers of PHP based projects (frameworks, cms, tools, etc.)
• regular participant of internals discussionsIt's clear that the second point has not really taken hold, but the first point adds the caveat "that have contributed code to PHP", and that part does seem widely accepted.
So unless I am wrong, merely having a php.net account doesn't appear sufficient -- code or docs contributions are an additional prerequisite to getting a vote.
Ben (and others) -- your thoughts? Is it really as straightforward as "having a php.net account alone is enough to be eligible to vote” ?
I wasn’t answering based on the rules. My answer is based on practice.
AFAIK, everyone with a php.net account also has access to the wiki (you
log into the wiki using your php.net account), and therefore, also has
the ability to vote on RFCs.Maybe there are some who have access to the wiki without a php.net
account, and maybe there are some who can access the wiki who can’t
vote. Whomever has admin access on the wiki can provide more
information.-Ben
Attachments:
- signature.asc
FTR, I have Wiki access (I was able to write a pre-RFC) but I have no voting access. Whatever the mechanism is, there is a separate setting.
--Larry Garfield
Everyone with a php.net account is able to vote. The public list is
here: https://people.php.net/I don't think that's quite the case? As has been noted elsewhere, the
rules are:• People with php.net VCS accounts that have contributed code to PHP
• Representatives from the PHP community, that will be chosen by those
with php.net VCS accounts
• Lead developers of PHP based projects (frameworks, cms, tools,
etc.)
• regular participant of internals discussionsIt's clear that the second point has not really taken hold, but the first
point adds the caveat "that have contributed code to PHP", and that part
does seem widely accepted.So unless I am wrong, merely having a php.net account doesn't appear
sufficient -- code or docs contributions are an additional prerequisite to
getting a vote.Ben (and others) -- your thoughts? Is it really as straightforward as
"having a php.net account alone is enough to be eligible to vote" ?
Yes, having a php.net account is sufficient. Additionally there are 28
users in the wiki in the "phpcvs" group, which I think means they can
also vote.
Based on master.php.net data, the number of people who are eligible for
voting is approximately 1900. The usual turnout for RFC votes is more like
- If it's something very controversial, maybe 100.
People aren't kidding when they say it's easy to get an RFC vote -- but in
reality, there's simply very little interest ;)
Regards,
Nikita
Hi --
Yes, having a php.net account is sufficient. Additionally there are 28
users in the wiki in the "phpcvs" group, which I think means they can
also vote.
Ah, very good -- thanks for that!
--
Paul M. Jones
pmjones@pmjones.io
http://paul-m-jones.com
Modernizing Legacy Applications in PHP
https://leanpub.com/mlaphp
Solving the N+1 Problem in PHP
https://leanpub.com/sn1php
Based on master.php.net data, the number of people who are eligible for
voting is approximately 1900. The usual turnout for RFC votes is more like
- If it's something very controversial, maybe 100.
Wow. From a participation standpoint that seems pretty pathetic. If 30 is the average that means most people never vote.
I would have assumed that having a vote would mean that people would be expected to vote periodically or if not then loose the privilege.
#jmtcw
-Mike
From: Mike Schinkel
Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2020 9:23 PM
To: Nikita Popov
Cc: PHP Internals List
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Who are the current eligible voters?
Based on master.php.net data, the number of people who are eligible for
voting is approximately 1900. The usual turnout for RFC votes is more like
- If it's something very controversial, maybe 100.
Wow. From a participation standpoint that seems pretty pathetic. If 30 is the average that means most people never vote.
I would have assumed that having a vote would mean that people would be expected to vote periodically or if not then loose the privilege.
#jmtcw
-Mike
Maybe this should be the case?
Not voting within 6 months or 12 months on a single RFC would mean you’ve either moved on with your life and lost the voting right… I think that’s similar to parliament systems…
You stop having a senator vote as soon as you leave the senate(doing something else with your life), you can pick it up whenever you’re back to be active…
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
We are predominantly volunteers, and should keep that in mind for
these kinds of things. In my opinion, a timeline of 6 months is
definitely too short. Maybe something like 3 years would be more
appropriate.
And if we do remove stale voting privileges it should be easy to get
them back again, and should not generally be met with resistance. If
someone has contributed before, we should be happy to have them back.
And all of this doesn't really matter that much; as Nikita pointed out
it is pretty easy to get an account, and most people simply don't care
to vote.
We are predominantly volunteers, and should keep that in mind for
these kinds of things.
Hear, hear.
--
Paul M. Jones
pmjones@pmjones.io
http://paul-m-jones.com
Modernizing Legacy Applications in PHP
https://leanpub.com/mlaphp
Solving the N+1 Problem in PHP
https://leanpub.com/sn1php
Wow. From a participation standpoint that seems pretty pathetic. If 30 is the average that means most people never vote.
I would have assumed that having a vote would mean that people would be expected to vote periodically or if not then loose the privilege.
How many of the 1900 are aware that they're eligible to vote? (a few hundred? could probably count the unique voters)
Discussions mentioning details of the RFC voting eligibility itself (e.g. this thread) are probably rare,
and limited to subscribers that actively read mailing lists (or see links from external posts).
I wasn't aware that I was able to use many of the internal tools until a few months ago,
or that I was an eligible voter until I read up on the RFC process.
(I assumed there was a small core group of voters)
When my php.net account was created,
I don't remember seeing notifications/emails about what you're eligible to do,
just the fact it was created. (It's been a while, I can't find the first email)
There are probably ways to increase awareness - I have no idea what the current state of this is.
- One-time notifications about this and other information on contributing when logging into pecl, bugs.php.net, the wiki, or other subdomains
(e.g. "Did you know?" dialog boxes) - Links to the same thing included in emails when creating new accounts
Some good ideas are being clarified in this thread, i would highlight:
“- One-time notifications about this and other information on contributing when logging into pecl, bugs.php.net, the wiki, or other subdomains
(e.g. "Did you know?" dialog boxes)
- Links to the same thing included in emails when creating new accounts” mentioned by Tyson Andre.
Obter o Outlook para iOShttps://aka.ms/o0ukef
De: tyson andre tysonandre775@hotmail.com
Enviado: Thursday, January 16, 2020 12:02:24 AM
Para: Olumide Samson oludonsexy@gmail.com; Mike Schinkel mike@newclarity.net; Nikita Popov nikita.ppv@gmail.com
Cc: PHP Internals List internals@lists.php.net
Assunto: Re: [PHP-DEV] Who are the current eligible voters?
Wow. From a participation standpoint that seems pretty pathetic. If 30 is the average that means most people never vote.
I would have assumed that having a vote would mean that people would be expected to vote periodically or if not then loose the privilege.
How many of the 1900 are aware that they're eligible to vote? (a few hundred? could probably count the unique voters)
Discussions mentioning details of the RFC voting eligibility itself (e.g. this thread) are probably rare,
and limited to subscribers that actively read mailing lists (or see links from external posts).
I wasn't aware that I was able to use many of the internal tools until a few months ago,
or that I was an eligible voter until I read up on the RFC process.
(I assumed there was a small core group of voters)
When my php.net account was created,
I don't remember seeing notifications/emails about what you're eligible to do,
just the fact it was created. (It's been a while, I can't find the first email)
There are probably ways to increase awareness - I have no idea what the current state of this is.
- One-time notifications about this and other information on contributing when logging into pecl, bugs.php.net, the wiki, or other subdomains
(e.g. "Did you know?" dialog boxes) - Links to the same thing included in emails when creating new accounts
Yes, having a php.net account is sufficient. Additionally there are 28
users in the wiki in the "phpcvs" group, which I think means they can
also vote.Based on master.php.net data, the number of people who are eligible for
voting is approximately 1900. The usual turnout for RFC votes is more like
- If it's something very controversial, maybe 100.
People aren't kidding when they say it's easy to get an RFC vote -- but in
reality, there's simply very little interest ;)
This code
https://github.com/php/web-wiki/blob/9bc9ba2c3d2d0d26ab510e4959466ab8680b7de7/dokuwiki/lib/plugins/doodle/syntax.php#L226
suggests above statements are false.
--
Aleksander Machniak
Kolab Groupware Developer [https://kolab.org]
Roundcube Webmail Developer [https://roundcube.net]
PGP: 19359DC1 # Blog: https://kolabian.wordpress.com
Yes, having a php.net account is sufficient. Additionally there are 28
users in the wiki in the "phpcvs" group, which I think means they can
also vote.Based on master.php.net data, the number of people who are eligible for
voting is approximately 1900. The usual turnout for RFC votes is more like
- If it's something very controversial, maybe 100.
People aren't kidding when they say it's easy to get an RFC vote -- but in
reality, there's simply very little interest ;)This code
https://github.com/php/web-wiki/blob/9bc9ba2c3d2d0d26ab510e4959466ab8680b7de7/dokuwiki/lib/plugins/doodle/syntax.php#L226
suggests above statements are false.
That's the kind of thing I had I mind. Good find!
Anyone have ideas on how (or from where) the $INFO['userinfo']['grps'] values get populated?
--
Paul M. Jones
pmjones@pmjones.io
http://paul-m-jones.com
Modernizing Legacy Applications in PHP
https://leanpub.com/mlaphp
Solving the N+1 Problem in PHP
https://leanpub.com/sn1php
Am 16.01.2020 um 13:52 schrieb Paul M. Jones:
Anyone have ideas on how (or from where) the
$INFO['userinfo']['grps']values get populated?
I would guess from the database
and
Yes, having a php.net account is sufficient. Additionally there are 28
users in the wiki in the "phpcvs" group, which I think means they can
also vote.Based on master.php.net data, the number of people who are eligible for
voting is approximately 1900. The usual turnout for RFC votes is more like
- If it's something very controversial, maybe 100.
People aren't kidding when they say it's easy to get an RFC vote -- but in
reality, there's simply very little interest ;)This code
https://github.com/php/web-wiki/blob/9bc9ba2c3d2d0d26ab510e4959466ab8680b7de7/dokuwiki/lib/plugins/doodle/syntax.php#L226
suggests above statements are false.
The code says that wiki users who are in the “admin,” “phpcvs,” or “voting” groups are able to vote.
A wiki account shows up in the “phpcvs” group if they login using their master.php.net account:
In that code, you can see that they automatically have the “phpcvs” group applied.
According to this code for master.php.net, a user account is considered approved if they have cvsaccess set to 1:
So, all approved php.net accounts are eligible to vote, which is currently 1858 accounts.
-Ben