Morning Chaps,
I have opened the vote on anonymous classes, following on from
conversations had in IRC, we have the option to postpone this until 5.7 ...
Cheers
hi!
Morning Chaps,
I have opened the vote on anonymous classes, following on fromconversations had in IRC, we have the option to postpone this until 5.7 ...
Can you move it to the voting phase section please?
--
Pierre
@pierrejoye | http://www.libgd.org
hi,
Morning Chaps,
I have opened the vote on anonymous classes, following on fromconversations had in IRC, we have the option to postpone this until 5.7 ...
Also I do not always follow IRC discussions. What is the reasoning
behind post pone this feature to an hypothetical 5.7? Or why not 5.6?
Cheers,
Pierre
@pierrejoye | http://www.libgd.org
hi,
Morning Chaps,
I have opened the vote on anonymous classes, following on fromconversations had in IRC, we have the option to postpone this until 5.7 ...
Also I do not always follow IRC discussions. What is the reasoning
behind post pone this feature to an hypothetical 5.7? Or why not 5.6?Cheers,
Morning Pierre,
5.6 remains an option ...
I brought it up in IRC the other day and someone, I forget who, but
recognized them at the time, said they'd rather see it in 5.7, then a
few people joined in the discussion and I couldn't really argue with
their reasoning.
The main point was that even a simple patch can have a destabilizing
effect, and we've already merged several "simple" patches into 5.6.
I think it's a bit early to call time on 5.6 features, and I think
features like this require quite some time for adoption and should be
out as quickly as possible ...
I don't really know what is best ...
Moved to voting bit ..
Sorry mike, thanks for posting link :)
Cheers
5.6 remains an option ... I brought it up in IRC the other day and someone, I forget who, butrecognized them at the time, said they'd rather see it in 5.7, then a few
people joined in the discussion and I couldn't really argue with their
reasoning.The main point was that even a simple patch can have a destabilizingeffect, and we've already merged several "simple" patches into 5.6.
I think it's a bit early to call time on 5.6 features,
It is not and we should begin soon to branch 5.6 and go with the
milestones planing to get it out in June.
and I think
features like this require quite some time for adoption and should be out as
quickly as possible ...
I agree.
Cheers,
Pierre
@pierrejoye | http://www.libgd.org
5.6 remains an option ... I brought it up in IRC the other day and someone, I forget who, butrecognized them at the time, said they'd rather see it in 5.7, then a few
people joined in the discussion and I couldn't really argue with their
reasoning.The main point was that even a simple patch can have a destabilizingeffect, and we've already merged several "simple" patches into 5.6.
I think it's a bit early to call time on 5.6 features,It is not and we should begin soon to branch 5.6 and go with the
milestones planing to get it out in June.and I think
features like this require quite some time for adoption and should be out as
quickly as possible ...I agree.
Cheers,
Hi Pierre,
Re: "It is not ..."
You seem to agree :)
If we should do it soon, and not now, then it is a bit too early
isn't it ??
The end of 2015 is very far away from the perspective of the PHP user;
they are not engaged in learning what will be available in two years
time, look at adoption rates. The anonymous classes patch is actually
simple, I can't imagine that it will have a profound effect on the
things around it ...
Cheers
Joe
I brought it up in IRC the other day and someone, I forget who, but
recognized them at the time, said they'd rather see it in 5.7, then a
few people joined in the discussion and I couldn't really argue with
their reasoning.
When I brought this up I was on my current primary rant. Even small
additions to the language have an impact on tools, best practices, ...
which have to be explored about how to use them and how those interact
with each other.
To be clear: I love anonymous classes, I always wanted them when using
FilterIterator etc. (while meanwhile generators+closures might be a
better tool for some of those use cases) But we are moving extremely
fast in reshaping the language making it hard for our users, of which
many -- in my assumption -- primarily want a stable platform, to keep
up.
Oh and talking about "stable platform". Current bug count: 3891
See also my previous message on that subject:
http://news.php.net/php.internals/69093
johannes
On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 1:49 PM, Johannes Schlüter
johannes@schlueters.de wrote:
Oh and talking about "stable platform". Current bug count: 3891
And most of them are not in the language per se but in extensions or
some totally ignored (see #65486 for what where you are in charge :).
Now, ranting on IRC is all good and shiny. Leading new RFC
contributors to confusion and mess up a vote is something slightly
less shiny. If you could raise your actual points on the list next
time, during the discussion period, then we will not lose time trying
to figure out what happened or what led him to propose such choices.
Thanks.
Cheers,
Pierre
@pierrejoye | http://www.libgd.org
I brought it up in IRC the other day and someone, I forget who, but
recognized them at the time, said they'd rather see it in 5.7, then a
few people joined in the discussion and I couldn't really argue with
their reasoning.When I brought this up I was on my current primary rant. Even small
additions to the language have an impact on tools, best practices, ...
which have to be explored about how to use them and how those interact
with each other.To be clear: I love anonymous classes, I always wanted them when using
FilterIterator etc. (while meanwhile generators+closures might be a
better tool for some of those use cases) But we are moving extremely
fast in reshaping the language making it hard for our users, of which
many -- in my assumption -- primarily want a stable platform, to keep
up.Oh and talking about "stable platform". Current bug count: 3891
See also my previous message on that subject:
http://news.php.net/php.internals/69093johannes
The observation that even a small patch has an impact, or can have an
impact is valid. But then to talk about adoption time turns your
reasoning a bit circular: adoption does take time, if we want for
adoption to take place then the earlier a patch gets merged the better,
regardless of the complexity of the patch.
I did see your "rant", though it's not really a rant; perfectly valid
observations. Still, I don't know what you hope to achieve by pointing
out the differences between the development of C or Java, and PHP:
progress plotted on a graph nobody would expect to see any kind of
relationship or commonality between these languages. So while they are
valid observations they aren't really relevant.
The bug count is a bit shameful, some effort should obviously be spent
on bugs ...
Cheers
Joe
The observation that even a small patch has an impact, or can have an
impact is valid. But then to talk about adoption time turns your
reasoning a bit circular: adoption does take time, if we want for
adoption to take place then the earlier a patch gets merged the better,
regardless of the complexity of the patch.
The issue is not that we are adding a single patch the issue is that we
recently change the language in a rapid pace.
I did see your "rant", though it's not really a rant; perfectly valid
observations. Still, I don't know what you hope to achieve by pointing
out the differences between the development of C or Java, and PHP:
progress plotted on a graph nobody would expect to see any kind of
relationship or commonality between these languages. So while they are
valid observations they aren't really relevant.
It is the only metric I have to answer comments if the sort "oh, PHP is
developing so slowly" while we are fast in changing the language.
What we i.e. don't do is trying to adopt our "standard library" to new
paradigms being introduced. Also after changing the language we don't
really check how this impacts new languages features. Maybe generators
have an impact on the way anonymous classes should be designed? etc. I
guess most here look at this with a PHP 5.2/5.3 mindset, not 5.5 or at
least 5.4.
that all said:
The bug count is a bit shameful, some effort should obviously be spent
on bugs ...
This is the actual point here: We as a community at large should imo
focus more on fixing bugs instead of creating new ones. If we could
spend more of the time we spend on discussing new things on actually
fixing bugs instead it is my unproven subjective claim that we'd make
more people happy than by any "syntax sugar".
And again to be really clear: This is nothing directly related to this
feature, this patch or even you, but a very general opinion/observation
from my side based on my observations and my discussions with users
about current state of things.
With that: All from my side is said and I hope we can end this more
general sub-thread and use the time better :-)
johannes
On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 5:30 PM, Johannes Schlüter
johannes@schlueters.de wrote:
The observation that even a small patch has an impact, or can have an
impact is valid. But then to talk about adoption time turns your
reasoning a bit circular: adoption does take time, if we want for
adoption to take place then the earlier a patch gets merged the better,
regardless of the complexity of the patch.The issue is not that we are adding a single patch the issue is that we
recently change the language in a rapid pace.I did see your "rant", though it's not really a rant; perfectly valid
observations. Still, I don't know what you hope to achieve by pointing
out the differences between the development of C or Java, and PHP:
progress plotted on a graph nobody would expect to see any kind of
relationship or commonality between these languages. So while they are
valid observations they aren't really relevant.It is the only metric I have to answer comments if the sort "oh, PHP is
developing so slowly" while we are fast in changing the language.
We do not change the language. We improve it. Changing the language
implies that one has to change his existing code or application to get
them run on a new release. That's not the case between 5.4 and 5.5,
and should not be between 5.5 and 5.6.
However we are not fast or slow, we only fill gaps with other modern languages.
What we i.e. don't do is trying to adopt our "standard library" to new
paradigms being introduced. Also after changing the language we don't
really check how this impacts new languages features. Maybe generators
have an impact on the way anonymous classes should be designed? etc. I
guess most here look at this with a PHP 5.2/5.3 mindset, not 5.5 or at
least 5.4.
That's a good point and that's why we have RFCs. We have to review the
impacts of a new feature, discuss the possible issues (design, BC,
etc.).
that all said:
The bug count is a bit shameful, some effort should obviously be spent
on bugs ...This is the actual point here: We as a community at large should imo
focus more on fixing bugs instead of creating new ones.
A project focusing only on fixing bugs and does not implement new
features is a dead project, they only don't know it yet.
If we could
spend more of the time we spend on discussing new things on actually
fixing bugs instead it is my unproven subjective claim that we'd make
more people happy than by any "syntax sugar".
I think it is somehow not correct to say that.
My team participates in a lot of discussions, we test all RFCs, before
they end in the voting phase, continuously. We fix bugs, tons of bugs.
We report bugs too. And many other developers do so as well. On the
other hand some developers discuss/argue a lot while not fixing bugs
at all nor developing new features. There are also developers being
better at developing new features rather than doing QA. That's all
good and we should try to figure out a way to work better together
instead of blocking each other.
Cheers,
Pierre
@pierrejoye | http://www.libgd.org
Morning Chaps,
I have opened the vote on anonymous classes, following on fromconversations had in IRC, we have the option to postpone this until 5.7 ...
You could have done us laziers a favor and add the link:
https://wiki.php.net/rfc/anonymous_classes#voting :)
--
Regards,
Mike
Morning Chaps,
I have opened the vote on anonymous classes, following on fromconversations had in IRC, we have the option to postpone this until 5.7 ...
Cheers
The "Include in PHP 5.7" voting option, does this mean that we already now
decide to include it in 5.7 or does it mean that we wish to reevaluate the
feature during the 5.7 cycle?
Nikita
Morning Chaps,
I have opened the vote on anonymous classes, following on fromconversations had in IRC, we have the option to postpone this until 5.7 ...
Cheers
The "Include in PHP 5.7" voting option, does this mean that we already now
decide to include it in 5.7 or does it mean that we wish to reevaluate the
feature during the 5.7 cycle?Nikita
I'm not sure, whatever seems appropriate ... if we're going to say that
it's too late for this to go in 5.6, then it can't be too early to
decide it can go in 5.7 can it ??
Cheers
Joe
Morning Chaps,
I have opened the vote on anonymous classes, following on fromconversations had in IRC, we have the option to postpone this until
5.7 ...Cheers
The "Include in PHP 5.7" voting option, does this mean that we already
now
decide to include it in 5.7 or does it mean that we wish to reevaluate
the
feature during the 5.7 cycle?Nikita
I'm not sure, whatever seems appropriate ... if we're going to say that
it's too late for this to go in 5.6, then it can't be too early to
decide it can go in 5.7 can it ??Cheers
Joe
Morning Chaps,
On the advice of many, I have restarted the vote, sorry for the
inconvenience/confusion ...
Cheers
Joe
Morning Chaps,
On the advice of many, I have restarted the vote, sorry for theinconvenience/confusion ...
https://wiki.php.net/rfc/anonymous_classes#voting (re-link, for the lazy)
The voting options changed from choosing a version ("5.6", "5.7") or
rejecting… too a much simpler, yes/no for sticking this into master. Which
branch/release the feature makes it into is something to be decided down
the line (ultimately, by the RMs).
Cheers
Joe
I have opened the vote on anonymous classes, following on from
conversations had in IRC, we have the option to postpone this until 5.7
The option to postpone for PHP 5.7 implies that there is already a
deadline for PHP 5.6. Is there?
I have opened the vote on anonymous classes, following on from
conversations had in IRC, we have the option to postpone this until 5.7The option to postpone for PHP 5.7 implies that there is already a
deadline for PHP 5.6. Is there?
There is a deadline for the next release yes, ~June 2014.
Cheers,
Pierre
@pierrejoye | | http://www.libgd.org