Re voting

Just b/c there are rarely any women at all that participate on this list, could we at list maintain a facade of gender neutrality?  I seriously can't believe that you used the word "him".  What about "her"?  Yeah, "her" as in myself and every other woman who codes with PHP whether to earn her living or to have a pleasant past-time?  I am sure that there are plenty of PHP women just like me who  might really appreciate having the opportunity to vote on changes that might effect the way we work.

Currently, it's as clear as mud to me as to what I need to do to be able to have some kind of voting impact.  The protocol or process needs to be clearly articulated in very clear language so that all concerned PHP men and women can be informed.

Sharon Lee Levy, ZCE

I believe you might have been trying to reply to the "voting without
vcs accounts" thread, possibly?

I do agree that the current state of affairs with regard to voting on
RFCs and the requirements/expectations for one to be promoted into the
voting process are about as clear the night sky. There should be more
transparency in understanding the requirements and setting forth the
expectations for the process in a formal and sane manner.

I also think that process should be fair irrespective of gender, race,
etc... The process should be subject to one's own demonstrated active
(and hopefully positive) role in the PHP community. I think if someone
shows initiative to consistently produce positive results they should
be accepted into the voting process based on their own merits.

Just b/c there are rarely any women at all that participate on this list, could we at list maintain a facade of gender neutrality?  I seriously can't believe that you used the word "him".  What about "her"?  Yeah, "her" as in myself and every other woman who codes with PHP whether to earn her living or to have a pleasant past-time?  I am sure that there are plenty of PHP women just like me who  might really appreciate having the opportunity to vote on changes that might effect the way we work.

While I am fully in support of PHP being inclusive towards men, women,
the transgendered community, and anyone else who is not covered by the
aforementioned categories, with respect, I don't believe Stas merited
the sarcastic flame he has received from you.

Singular "he" as a gender-neutral pronoun was taught as standard
English for a long time, and whilst it may not be the most politically
correct phrasing in the modern era, I doubt any offence or
non-inclusion was intended. Furthermore, many of the participants on
this list are not native English speakers, and the nuances and
politics of gender representation in a largely non-gendered language
like English are likely to be lost on them.

Hanlon's Razor would seem to apply.

Currently, it's as clear as mud to me as to what I need to do to be able to have some kind of voting impact.  The protocol or process needs to be clearly articulated in very clear language so that all concerned PHP men and women can be informed.

On that point, I doubt anyone disagrees.

Thanks,

Adam

Stas:

Just b/c there are rarely any women at all that participate on this list,
could we at list maintain a facade of gender neutrality? I seriously can't
believe that you used the word "him". What about "her"? Yeah, "her" as in
myself and every other woman who codes with PHP whether to earn her living
or to have a pleasant past-time? I am sure that there are plenty of PHP
women just like me who might really appreciate having the opportunity to
vote on changes that might effect the way we work.

Currently, it's as clear as mud to me as to what I need to do to be able
to have some kind of voting impact. The protocol or process needs to be
clearly articulated in very clear language so that all concerned PHP men
and women can be informed.

Sharon Lee Levy, ZCE

Hi Sharon,

I'm a father of 3 daughters, and I'm protective of the opportunities
they'll have when they're old enough to enter the working world (right now
the oldest is 7.) In fact, my daughters have started developing websites
already, and I'm sure PHP is just around the corner, so maybe they'll end
up using this list a few years from now :)

I believe you quoted Stas's response below:

no, it only means that our internal processes aren't clear or easily
accessible.
people outside the circle can't do much, than asking people inside to
let them in.

If somebody is an outsider to PHP development, why do you think giving
him a deciding vote on it would be a good thing? One can discuss things,
propose changes, etc. without any special access.

Stas does a great job engaging in the dialogues on this list, and I can't
even imagine the cost in terms of time. I know it must be great.

In this case, I don't believe Stas meant any offense. The lack of a gender
neutral pronoun in English is well documented (and argued:)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender-neutral_pronoun

When Stas wanted to use a singular form of a pronoun, he had a few options
(as outlined in the link):

• he
• they (implied singular)
• one
• he/she

I'm confident his choice of words was for speed, not one of precise
articulation of the group involvement.

Glad you're own the list :) My girls will be grateful for the role model(s)
in a few years!

Adam

Sharon,

Stas:

Just b/c there are rarely any women at all that participate on this list,
could we at list maintain a facade of gender neutrality? I seriously can't
believe that you used the word "him". What about "her"? Yeah, "her" as in
myself and every other woman who codes with PHP whether to earn her living
or to have a pleasant past-time? I am sure that there are plenty of PHP
women just like me who might really appreciate having the opportunity to
vote on changes that might effect the way we work.

Currently, it's as clear as mud to me as to what I need to do to be able
to have some kind of voting impact. The protocol or process needs to be
clearly articulated in very clear language so that all concerned PHP men
and women can be informed.

Sharon Lee Levy, ZCE

--

You raise a valid concern, but I think you were unfairly harsh toward Stas.
The gender-neutral "he" is an accepted standard in English. Maybe it
shouldn't be, and I would applaud efforts to change that, but berating
someone who uses it isn't the best way to get your message across.

Personally, I'm a fan of the singular "they". Some people prefer to use
"ze" instead, but I think it just sounds stupid. Why? Well, just say the
following sentence in a funny accent of your choosing and you'll
understand: "What is ze doing?!" ;)

--Kris

Stas:

Just b/c there are rarely any women at all that participate on this list, could we at list maintain a facade of gender neutrality?

One of my favorite PHP dev folks is Sara Golemon. A fucking rock star.
Female, I believe. I think she might be into women, but I don't really
know, or care, because we honor code, not biological plumbing.

Point being that PHP is not a sex or gender hostile community.

-Bop