Hi,
I think its painfully obvious that a system to manage the voting is
needed. Like I said, ideally it should also have an email interface.
People should be able to vote from +1 to -1 and be able to add a
comment. Notifications should be send to this list about the start and
final result of the vote.
Voting itself should be split by people with access to cvs.php.net and
those that do not. This is open source, everybody can voice their
opinions, but the developers of the project should have final say.
However if the end user and developer votes diverge greatly it will
still be an important hint to take into account. That being said, end
user polling imho belongs somewhere else and before the final
developer vote.
The features of PEPr in PEAR cover all of this quite well, except for
the email interface. I personally would not need that and maybe its
too much of a hassle to get this done in a reliable and secure way.
regards,
Lukas
Lukas Kahwe Smith wrote:
Hi,
I think its painfully obvious that a system to manage the voting is
needed. Like I said, ideally it should also have an email interface.
People should be able to vote from +1 to -1 and be able to add a
comment. Notifications should be send to this list about the start and
final result of the vote.Voting itself should be split by people with access to cvs.php.net and
those that do not. This is open source, everybody can voice their
opinions, but the developers of the project should have final say.
However if the end user and developer votes diverge greatly it will
still be an important hint to take into account. That being said, end
user polling imho belongs somewhere else and before the final developer
vote.The features of PEPr in PEAR cover all of this quite well, except for
the email interface. I personally would not need that and maybe its too
much of a hassle to get this done in a reliable and secure way.
PEPr, unfortunately, is very tightly bound to the pearweb code, and
would be a big hassle to separate as it currently stands. We have been
working (by we, I mostly mean Helgi) for over a year now trying to clean
up pearweb and still are only about halfway through the codebase, but
when PEPr is tackled, I will let you all know. Of course, if there is
someone enterprising who wants to assist with that specific part of the
cleanup, the code is in cvs at pearweb/. PEPr-specific code is located
in pearweb/include/pepr, pearweb/public_html/pepr, and
pearweb/cron/pepr.php.
Thanks,
Greg
Lukas Kahwe Smith wrote:
Hi,
I think its painfully obvious that a system to manage the voting is
needed. Like I said, ideally it should also have an email interface.
People should be able to vote from +1 to -1 and be able to add a
comment. Notifications should be send to this list about the start and
final result of the vote.Voting itself should be split by people with access to cvs.php.net and
those that do not. This is open source, everybody can voice their
opinions, but the developers of the project should have final say.
However if the end user and developer votes diverge greatly it will
still be an important hint to take into account. That being said, end
user polling imho belongs somewhere else and before the final developer
vote.The features of PEPr in PEAR cover all of this quite well, except for
the email interface. I personally would not need that and maybe its too
much of a hassle to get this done in a reliable and secure way.PEPr, unfortunately, is very tightly bound to the pearweb code, and
would be a big hassle to separate as it currently stands. We have been
working (by we, I mostly mean Helgi) for over a year now trying to clean
up pearweb and still are only about halfway through the codebase, but
when PEPr is tackled, I will let you all know. Of course, if there is
someone enterprising who wants to assist with that specific part of the
cleanup, the code is in cvs at pearweb/. PEPr-specific code is located
in pearweb/include/pepr, pearweb/public_html/pepr, and
pearweb/cron/pepr.php.
And if that entrepreneur-person needs tips about the pearweb code or
"mentoring", I'll be glad to help.
Thanks,
Greg--
--
David Coallier,
Founder & Software Architect,
Agora Production (http://agoraproduction.com)
51.42.06.70.18
I think its painfully obvious that a system to manage the voting is
needed. Like I said, ideally it should also have an email interface.
Voting to achieve what?
Stanislav Malyshev, Zend Software Architect
stas@zend.com http://www.zend.com/
(408)253-8829 MSN: stas@zend.com
I think its painfully obvious that a system to manage the voting is
needed. Like I said, ideally it should also have an email interface.Voting to achieve what?
Fair decisions in a simpler, effective and right manner (and not
discutable, ideally).
--
Pierre
http://blog.thepimp.net | http://www.libgd.org
Voting to achieve what?
Fair decisions in a simpler, effective and right manner (and not
discutable, ideally).
I do not consider "fairness", whatever that could mean, having anything
to do with technical decisions regarding PHP, neither I think counting
votes is the process that allows to arrive to a decision best for PHP. I
personally know very little about some areas of PHP code, and it make
little sense that my vote would carry the same weight as opinion of the
person that wrote and maintains the code. There's nothing in arithmetic
majority of people that makes any decision better, more effective, more
right and not disputable. Thousands of people can be wrong as easy as
one person can be, and one person can be as right as a thousand.
Also, vast majority of PHP users never read this list and would know
nothing of any votes held or announced here, so representing that as a
poll reflecting opinion of a millions-wide PHP community makes no sense
whatsoever.
Stanislav Malyshev, Zend Software Architect
stas@zend.com http://www.zend.com/
(408)253-8829 MSN: stas@zend.com
Voting to achieve what?
Fair decisions in a simpler, effective and right manner (and not
discutable, ideally).I do not consider "fairness", whatever that could mean, having anything
to do with technical decisions regarding PHP, neither I think counting
votes is the process that allows to arrive to a decision best for PHP.
There is many decisions that directly affect what users can do or not.
What I have to use daily or not. I do not need to know perfectly the
portion of the PHP sources to take a wise decision or choise.
It is also a process to use when we fail to find a compromise. I still
strongly believe in our self discipline and control.
--
Pierre
http://blog.thepimp.net | http://www.libgd.org
Voting to achieve what?
Fair decisions in a simpler, effective and right manner (and not
discutable, ideally).I do not consider "fairness", whatever that could mean, having
anything
to do with technical decisions regarding PHP, neither I think
counting
votes is the process that allows to arrive to a decision best for
PHP.There is many decisions that directly affect what users can do or not.
What I have to use daily or not. I do not need to know perfectly the
portion of the PHP sources to take a wise decision or choise.It is also a process to use when we fail to find a compromise. I still
strongly believe in our self discipline and control.
We have some decisions that are mostly questions of taste that do not
require specific expertise beyond being a trusted member of the
community. The array syntax question imho is a good example of this.
There are other decisions that should be approached differently. But
the voting has traditionally been used in the project, only figuring
out reliable results was needlessly hard. Because people did not
participate (either because they did not know about the vote, because
they thought that they have expressed their opinion before the person
that tallied up the vote started the tally, because its impossible to
figure out the background of the person voting etc.).
regards,
Lukas
Voting to achieve what?
Fair decisions in a simpler, effective and right manner (and not
discutable, ideally).I do not consider "fairness", whatever that could mean, having
anything to do with technical decisions regarding PHP,
I vote that PHP should get a pony! Who's with me!
Voting is good in that it helps express the wills and desires of
those who vote. Some of those opinions may be wrong, insane, or
silly, but it provides a means to evaluate an opinion professed by a
group, rather than as an individual.
IMSHO, for PHP, voting is an informative, not conformative, process.
Let's take two arguments, with different heritages, authors, and
origins.
Suoshin patches.
mysql_session patches.
We could have 100% voted desire to make all of these HEAD, and still
say "No."
Voting expresses voter will, not outcome. For the former and
latter, these are feature, not technical, requests.
neither I think counting votes is the process that allows to arrive
to a decision best for PHP.
That's why votes influence, but do not determine, outcomes.
I personally know very little about some areas of PHP code,
It's a big club. We should get T-shirts.
and it make little sense that my vote would carry the same weight
as opinion of the person that wrote and maintains the code. There's
nothing in arithmetic majority of people that makes any decision
better, more effective, more right and not disputable. Thousands of
people can be wrong as easy as one person can be, and one person
can be as right as a thousand.
True, that.
For those not versed in US-style democracy, the way we do it here is
to elect (theoretically) somebody with a clue. Their one "clue"
easily vote trumps thousands.
The thing is, is that, well, if Rasmus, Zeev, Andi, Wez, whoever
has a big voice, stopped listening or went insane or whatever, we
have to have a way of fixing such a case.
Also, vast majority of PHP users never read this list and would
know nothing of any votes held or announced here, so representing
that as a poll reflecting opinion of a millions-wide PHP community
makes no sense whatsoever.
Agreed.
-Ronabop
Voting to achieve what?
Fair decisions in a simpler, effective and right manner (and not
discutable, ideally).I do not consider "fairness", whatever that could mean, having
anything to do with technical decisions regarding PHP,I vote that PHP should get a pony! Who's with me!
I am! :-)
IMSHO, for PHP, voting is an informative, not conformative, process.
So let's call it what it is, and what, honestly, the array [] thread seemed
like: It's not a vote, it's a poll. Confusion solved. :-)
--
Larry Garfield AIM: LOLG42
larry@garfieldtech.com ICQ: 6817012
"If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of
exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea,
which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to
himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the possession
of every one, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it." -- Thomas
Jefferson
Voting to achieve what?
Fair decisions in a simpler, effective and right manner (and not
discutable, ideally).I do not consider "fairness", whatever that could mean, having
anything to do with technical decisions regarding PHP,I vote that PHP should get a pony! Who's with me!
Voting is good in that it helps express the wills and desires of
those who vote. Some of those opinions may be wrong, insane, or
silly, but it provides a means to evaluate an opinion professed by
a group, rather than as an individual.IMSHO, for PHP, voting is an informative, not conformative,
process.Let's take two arguments, with different heritages, authors, and
origins.Suoshin patches.
mysql_session patches.We could have 100% voted desire to make all of these HEAD, and
still say "No."Voting expresses voter will, not outcome. For the former and
latter, these are feature, not technical, requests.neither I think counting votes is the process that allows to
arrive to a decision best for PHP.That's why votes influence, but do not determine, outcomes.
Now that's a crock of shit.
Related to PHP it has been my experience that the vote is just a
whitewash as the outcome has already been predetermined or that the
votes of only a select few are used as the basis for a decision.
If your going to put something to a vote like electing a president or
including a feature in PHP and you decide against the people's choice
then your basically saying that you'll only accept the votes as long
as it coincides with your decision, yeah a really nice demonstration
of false democracy and deception in action.
People are not interested in voting on the off-chance that maybe
you'll accept the outcome of the vote, they expect you to meet the
obligations for the outcome of that vote.
Basically you've confirmed it's not a vote, it's a suggestion and the
suggestion wont bear any weight to the outcome if you don't believe
the suggestion has any merit or that you don't like the suggestion.
If you propose a list of options to be voted on then accept the
outcome of the vote, if there is no chance that an option will be
accepted despite it's vote then the option should not be proposed,
then you don't have to worry about insulting your integrity and
disappointing the people because their choice is not accepted.
I personally know very little about some areas of PHP code,
It's a big club. We should get T-shirts.
and it make little sense that my vote would carry the same weight
as opinion of the person that wrote and maintains the code.
There's nothing in arithmetic majority of people that makes any
decision better, more effective, more right and not disputable.
Thousands of people can be wrong as easy as one person can be, and
one person can be as right as a thousand.True, that.
For those not versed in US-style democracy, the way we do it here
is to elect (theoretically) somebody with a clue. Their one "clue"
easily vote trumps thousands.The thing is, is that, well, if Rasmus, Zeev, Andi, Wez, whoever
has a big voice, stopped listening or went insane or whatever, we
have to have a way of fixing such a case.
These are guaranteed by the rules and policies written for and
established by the people which can be used as a footprint, the PHP
king is elected and he can be impeached along with an array of PHP
representatives who represent the different areas of PHP, the
representatives submit what the people of their territory or area of
expertise want, the house which is the collection of these
representatives votes based on the arguments offered before the house
and anything passed by the house becomes effected or is then passed
along to a vote of the people, that is democracy.
Also, vast majority of PHP users never read this list and would
know nothing of any votes held or announced here, so representing
that as a poll reflecting opinion of a millions-wide PHP community
makes no sense whatsoever.
Of course not, there are a significant number of end users who
believe that the PHP dev team is nothing more than a collection of
pompous assholes based on their limited minor experiences and staying
away means less headaches and aggravation in ones life.
The community is successful only because those involved believe the
project has merit and a portion of the end users are grateful for the
community of developers because they have a better understanding of
it's inner-workings and value.
If you want to create a true public voting environment then add
something to the website that allows for people to come and vote, a
single vote based on a captcha and email address vote confirmation to
prevent manipulation of the voting system and accept the outcome of
the vote.
You can also create an e-mail voting system, they send an email and a
confirmation requesting a reply is sent, anything that does not get a
confirmation reply or is undeliverable is probably invalid and the
vote doesn't count.
There are endless possibilities to a public voting system but the key
would be in awareness, if the people don't know then they wont
participate and there's no guarantee that even if they do know that
they'll participate, that old adage comes to mind, you can lead a
horse to water but you can't make it drink.
Agreed.
-Ronabop
--
-- Dale
I don't believe the PHP Dev Team has ever claimed that votes counted
for anything at all.
IIRC, the last known Dev Team structure was defined as "benevolent junta"
I do not think anybody who can count past 10 with their shoes on can
mistake "benevolent junta" for a vote-based democracy. :-)
Larry may have said it best "call it a poll and be done with it"
--
Some people have a "gift" link here.
Know what I want?
I want you to buy a CD from some indie artist.
http://cdbaby.com/from/lynch
Yeah, I get a buck. So?
Hi,
Voting to achieve what?
Fair decisions in a simpler, effective and right manner (and not
discutable, ideally).I do not consider "fairness", whatever that could mean, having
anything to do with technical decisions regarding PHP,I vote that PHP should get a pony! Who's with me!
Besides the completely useless rant you mad here (joking or not), you
miss one important paragraph. As a convenience, I will paste here
again:
It is also a process to use when we fail to find a compromise. I still
strongly believe in our self discipline and control.
--
Pierre
http://blog.thepimp.net | http://www.libgd.org