Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2016 7:47 PM
To: Tony Marston ; internals@lists.php.net
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Deprecate PEAR/PECL & Replace with composer/pickle
Hi!You seem to think that any opinion which differs from yours is wrong,
and you try to dismiss that opinion by classing it as "abusive". I'm
afraid this lack of tolerance for different opinions is becoming more
and more prevalent in this forum, and I fear it will have a detrimental
effect on the whole PHP ecosystem.Tony, the issue is not your opinion - which, by now, we are amply
familiar with, and to which you are fully entitled. The issue is the way
you are expressing this opinion - in a combative style bordering on
personal attack.
The fact that I express my displeasure in strong terms comes from the fact that without it you would not realise how strongly I disagree. In my early days I would try to be diplomatic and gentle in my criticisms only to have them ignored. I therefore use strong words to make it absolutely clear that I strongly disagree.
I would suggest that if you are interested in your
opinion being considered and supported by others, to amend the tone as
to be more concentrated on technical merits and less on flame.That is a valid opinion. Consider the fact that the Windows operating
system was only accepted by large numbers of users as it had a "modern"
GUI and not a command line interface. You try and release a new piece ofIn fact, Windows does have command-line interface
That may be the case, but it would not have been accepted by trillions of users if it ONLY had a command line interface.
, moreover - Microsoft
recently invested significant resources into making this interface more
powerful and flexible. Moreover, many of the professional programmers
routinely use command-line tools on Windows.
I’m a profession programmer, yet I don’t use ANY command line tools. The fact that SOME do is no reason to say that everybody should.
It is true that average
Windows user does not spend much time in command-line, but we need also
to remember that PHP developer is not exactly an average Windows user.give them the right to force it upon the rest of the world. Most users
are much happier with a GUI than CLI, so not providing a "modern"
interface is showing disrespect to those users.That depends a lot on how you count "most users". If you talk about
Windows users, sure, you claim may have merits. If you talk, however,
about Windows users that are PHP developers - I'm not sure this is
true, at least without some factual backing, and it's in no way obvious.
In any case, we are a volonteer project, which means we release what
project participants build. If you or someone else will produce suitable
GUI for composer, etc. - we can discuss it. But stating that somebody
unknown should produce some software is useless - it only gets produced
when specific people volonteer their time to do it.
Then I suggest that those who are so anxious to see of death of PEAR/PECL should be forced to provide a viable alternative first. Otherwise they would be just like those stupid politicians who try to force commuters out of their private cars and into public transport without realising that the existing public transport system is NOT a viable replacement and is incapable of taking on the extra load.
--
Tony Marston
On Sun, Sep 11, 2016 at 4:47 AM, Tony Marston tonymarston@hotmail.com
wrote:
Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2016 7:47 PM
To: Tony Marston ; internals@lists.php.net
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Deprecate PEAR/PECL & Replace with
composer/pickleThen I suggest that those who are so anxious to see of death of PEAR/PECL
should be forced to provide a viable alternative first. Otherwise they
would be just like those stupid politicians who try to force commuters out
of their private cars and into public transport without realising that the
existing public transport system is NOT a viable replacement and is
incapable of taking on the extra load.
I just want to say that PEAR as a source repository, has been dead for
quite some time. It's filled with outdated code that has hardly seen any
maintenance in years, and nobody really contributes to it anyway.
PEAR/PECL as a package manager has historically had little utility to the
average user apart from installing those PECL extensions which aren't
packaged by a particular user's distribution repository. Certainly hasn't
had any real viability in years. Trying to replace something that's
inherently non-viable with a viable-alternative seems like a pretty moot
point.
I just want to say that PEAR as a source repository, has been dead for
quite some time. It's filled with outdated code that has hardly seen any
maintenance in years, and nobody really contributes to it anyway.
While I will agree that for a large section of the repository that is
the case, there IS a section of core tools that are still actively used
and it would be nice to have them properly supported via the core system
rather than the rather disjointed way they are maintained today. I
tidied up that area on a project last month to bring it in line with
PHP7, and I know other projects are independently maintaining a copy
which is a waste of effort.
Yes PEAR is not going away, but pretending it does not have any use
today is equally wrong. It does not need to be installed by default, but
most distributions do seem to do a better job at maintaining a current
set of tools than PHP does itself?
--
Lester Caine - G8HFL
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk
On Sun, Sep 11, 2016 at 4:47 AM, Tony Marston tonymarston@hotmail.com
PEAR/PECL as a package manager has historically had little utility to the
average user apart from installing those PECL extensions which aren't
packaged by a particular user's distribution repository. Certainly hasn't
had any real viability in years. Trying to replace something that's
inherently non-viable
I beg to differ - this time with stats:
https://pecl.php.net/package-stats.php
https://pecl.php.net/package-stats.php?pid=981&rid=&cid=7
https://pecl.php.net/package-stats.php?pid=214&rid=&cid=25
Literally millions of downloads, and recently too.
The PECL installer is in wide use.
cheers,
Derick
Hi!
PEAR/PECL as a package manager has historically had little utility to the
average user apart from installing those PECL extensions which aren't
packaged by a particular user's distribution repository. Certainly hasn't
had any real viability in years. Trying to replace something that's
inherently non-viableI beg to differ - this time with stats:
https://pecl.php.net/package-stats.php
https://pecl.php.net/package-stats.php?pid=981&rid=&cid=7
https://pecl.php.net/package-stats.php?pid=214&rid=&cid=25Literally millions of downloads, and recently too.
The PECL installer is in wide use.
Is the stats for downloads by every mean or just by downloads via the
installer specifically? I.e., if I just download it by clicking the link
in web GUI, it is counted, or only when I use installer?
--
Stas Malyshev
smalyshev@gmail.com
On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 10:24 AM, Stanislav Malyshev smalyshev@gmail.com
wrote:
Hi!
PEAR/PECL as a package manager has historically had little utility to
the
average user apart from installing those PECL extensions which aren't
packaged by a particular user's distribution repository. Certainly
hasn't
had any real viability in years. Trying to replace something that's
inherently non-viableI beg to differ - this time with stats:
https://pecl.php.net/package-stats.php
https://pecl.php.net/package-stats.php?pid=981&rid=&cid=7
https://pecl.php.net/package-stats.php?pid=214&rid=&cid=25Literally millions of downloads, and recently too.
The PECL installer is in wide use.
Is the stats for downloads by every mean or just by downloads via the
installer specifically? I.e., if I just download it by clicking the link
in web GUI, it is counted, or only when I use installer?--
Stas Malyshev
smalyshev@gmail.com--
it is counted by the get/fetch script which serves the file, and afaik
that's also what pear-core is calling.
--
Ferenc Kovács
@Tyr43l - http://tyrael.hu
Hi!
PEAR/PECL as a package manager has historically had little utility to
the
average user apart from installing those PECL extensions which aren't
packaged by a particular user's distribution repository. Certainly
hasn't
had any real viability in years. Trying to replace something that's
inherently non-viableI beg to differ - this time with stats:
https://pecl.php.net/package-stats.php
https://pecl.php.net/package-stats.php?pid=981&rid=&cid=7
https://pecl.php.net/package-stats.php?pid=214&rid=&cid=25Literally millions of downloads, and recently too.
The PECL installer is in wide use.
Is the stats for downloads by every mean or just by downloads via the
installer specifically? I.e., if I just download it by clicking the link
in web GUI, it is counted, or only when I use installer?
It is all downloads, I cannot remember if I added the source back then.
Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2016 7:47 PM
To: Tony Marston ; internals@lists.php.net
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Deprecate PEAR/PECL & Replace with composer/pickle
Hi!You seem to think that any opinion which differs from yours is wrong,
and you try to dismiss that opinion by classing it as "abusive". I'm
afraid this lack of tolerance for different opinions is becoming more
and more prevalent in this forum, and I fear it will have a detrimental
effect on the whole PHP ecosystem.
Tony, the issue is not your opinion - which, by now, we are amply
familiar with, and to which you are fully entitled. The issue is the way
you are expressing this opinion - in a combative style bordering on
personal attack.
The fact that I express my displeasure in strong terms comes from the fact that without it you would not realise how strongly I disagree. In my early days I would try to be diplomatic and gentle in my criticisms only to have them ignored. I therefore use strong words to make it absolutely clear that I strongly disagree.I would suggest that if you are interested in your
opinion being considered and supported by others, to amend the tone as
to be more concentrated on technical merits and less on flame.That is a valid opinion. Consider the fact that the Windows operating
system was only accepted by large numbers of users as it had a "modern"
GUI and not a command line interface. You try and release a new piece of
In fact, Windows does have command-line interface
That may be the case, but it would not have been accepted by trillions of users if it ONLY had a command line interface., moreover - Microsoft
recently invested significant resources into making this interface more
powerful and flexible. Moreover, many of the professional programmers
routinely use command-line tools on Windows.
I’m a profession programmer, yet I don’t use ANY command line tools. The fact that SOME do is no reason to say that everybody should.It is true that average
Windows user does not spend much time in command-line, but we need also
to remember that PHP developer is not exactly an average Windows user.give them the right to force it upon the rest of the world. Most users
are much happier with a GUI than CLI, so not providing a "modern"
interface is showing disrespect to those users.
That depends a lot on how you count "most users". If you talk about
Windows users, sure, you claim may have merits. If you talk, however,
about Windows users that are PHP developers - I'm not sure this is
true, at least without some factual backing, and it's in no way obvious.
In any case, we are a volonteer project, which means we release what
project participants build. If you or someone else will produce suitable
GUI for composer, etc. - we can discuss it. But stating that somebody
unknown should produce some software is useless - it only gets produced
when specific people volonteer their time to do it.
Then I suggest that those who are so anxious to see of death of PEAR/PECL should be forced to provide a viable alternative first. Otherwise they would be just like those stupid politicians who try to force commuters out of their private cars and into public transport without realising that the existing public transport system is NOT a viable replacement and is incapable of taking on the extra load.
again, nobody is trying killing PEAR/PECL. do we need to use strong
terms to make that clear ?--
Tony Marston
--
Mathieu Rochette