WTF is T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM?
This has to be THE most asked question by new php developers when they
come across it. Can we please change the token name to T_DOUBLE_COLON
so I don't have to hear about it constantly?
Those that disagree don't do enough PHP support to know how often it is
asked. it's worth it.
Chad
Those that disagree don't do enough PHP support to know how often it is
asked. it's worth it.
Someone disagreeing with your request to change something does not
correlate to their doing "enough PHP support." There are many reasons
to disagree with a change request, no matter how much any one person
thinks of it as a necessity or an improvement.
--
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http://www.parasane.net/
WTF is T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM?
This has to be THE most asked question by new php developers when they come across it.
Can we please change the token name toT_DOUBLE_COLONso I don't have to hear about it
constantly?Those that disagree don't do enough PHP support to know how often it is asked. it's worth it.
Is it that hard to at least review the mailing list archives before ranting?
At least posters would sound like they have educated themselves on why what
came to be, and argue sensibly for changes.
WTF is T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM?
This has to be THE most asked question by new php developers when they come across it.
Can we please change the token name toT_DOUBLE_COLONso I don't have to hear about it
constantly?Those that disagree don't do enough PHP support to know how often it is asked. it's worth it.
Is it that hard to at least review the mailing list archives before ranting?
At least posters would sound like they have educated themselves on why what
came to be, and argue sensibly for changes.
obviously the old arguments didn't work, time to start anew.
WTF is T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM?
This has to be THE most asked question by new php developers when they come across it.
Can we please change the token name toT_DOUBLE_COLONso I don't have to hear about it
constantly?Those that disagree don't do enough PHP support to know how often it is asked. it's worth it.
Is it that hard to at least review the mailing list archives before ranting?
At least posters would sound like they have educated themselves on why what
came to be, and argue sensibly for changes.obviously the old arguments didn't work, time to start anew.
using a name like "admin" in your email headers isn't going to be very receptive.
For what its worth its Hebrew for double colon. I'm all for the change, will see what I can do next week.
- S
WTF is T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM?
This has to be THE most asked question by new php developers when they come across it.
Can we please change the token name toT_DOUBLE_COLONso I don't have to hear about it
constantly?Those that disagree don't do enough PHP support to know how often it is asked. it's worth it.
Is it that hard to at least review the mailing list archives before ranting?
At least posters would sound like they have educated themselves on why what
came to be, and argue sensibly for changes.obviously the old arguments didn't work, time to start anew.
using a name like "admin" in your email headers isn't going to be very receptive.
For what its worth its Hebrew for double colon. I'm all for the change, will see what I can do next week.
- S
Oops, sorry didn't even notice it was there, I don't send mail from this
account much.
Should be fixed. Though I don't care what my name has to do with reception.
What is in a name anyway?
Den 2010 10 30 03:51 skrev "Chad Emrys" admin@codeangel.org:
- snip *
What is in a name anyway?
There's something VERY ironic about a statement like that given what you're
asking for ...
Regards
Peter
Den 2010 10 30 03:51 skrev "Chad Emrys" <admin@codeangel.org
mailto:admin@codeangel.org>:
- snip *
What is in a name anyway?
There's something VERY ironic about a statement like that given what
you're asking for ...Regards
Peter
It was intentional ;p, glad you caught it.
What is in a name anyway?
Would a T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM by any other name make a difference?
--
Richard Quadling
Twitter : EE : Zend
@RQuadling : e-e.com/M_248814.html : bit.ly/9O8vFY
What is in a name anyway?
Would aT_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIMby any other name make a difference?
To provide a counterargument, it certainly would. I don't consider
myself an inexperienced PHP developer and have certainly done some OO
programming, yet I only recently stumbled upon this error.
I must admit that it is confusing. Most of these error messages are
descriptive enough that just glossing over the code allows me to fix the
issue 4 out of 5 times. For this one I had to do a Google search to
reaffirm that my PHP installation didn't become the victim of a
corrupted filesystem.
Regards,
Jorrit
using a name like "admin" in your email headers isn't going to be very receptive.
I was thinking the exact same thing. Glad not to be the only one. ;-P
--
</Daniel P. Brown>
Network Infrastructure Manager
Documentation, Webmaster Teams
http://www.php.net/
obviously the old arguments didn't work, time to start anew.
obviously you didn't stop to learn the art of persuasion.
obviously the old arguments didn't work, time to start anew.
obviously you didn't stop to learn the art of persuasion.
That's just rude, dude.
The first google entry when you search for it gives you the answer. It is actually unbelievably easy to find the answer via search. If a new PHP developer can't find it then maybe they shouldn't be writing code.
This is a piece of history from the PHP 3 days and think it adds some character, a story (and history) to PHP. Don't think we should take this out after a good 12 years.
I would prefer this was not changed.
Andi
-----Original Message-----
From: admin [mailto:admin@codeangel.org]
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 5:47 PM
To: internals php list
Subject: [PHP-DEV] renameT_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIMto
T_DOUBLE_COLONWTF is T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM?
This has to be THE most asked question by new php developers when they
come across it. Can we please change the token name toT_DOUBLE_COLON
so I don't have to hear about it constantly?Those that disagree don't do enough PHP support to know how often it is
asked. it's worth it.Chad
--
To unsubscribe, visit:
http://www.php.net/unsub.php
The first google entry when you search for it gives you the answer. It is actually unbelievably easy to find the answer via search. If a new PHP developer can't find it then maybe they shouldn't be writing code.
This is a piece of history from the PHP 3 days and think it adds some character, a story (and history) to PHP. Don't think we should take this out after a good 12 years.
I would prefer this was not changed.
Andi
I don't see what is so endearing about a badly named token.
I would prefer this was not changed.
+1 (for the same reasons)
--
Sebastian Bergmann Co-Founder and Principal Consultant
http://sebastian-bergmann.de/ http://thePHP.cc/
I would prefer this was not changed.
+1 (for the same reasons)
I agree with Andi, Rasmus and the other people in favor.
This token name is part of the history of PHP and adds to it's
uniqueness.
But besides this: renaming the constant is probably not going to solve
the problem (at least not anytime soon).
Changing this constant would mean breaking BC (some people using the
tokenizer extension might use it) and thus officially it should only
be implemented in PHP-next.
This means that the support requests will be coming in for a long time
as it not even planned for release or anything.
Suppose that this rename would happen in the next minor release: most
shared hosts lag immensily with their installed PHP version and I
reckon most questions come from inexperienced / starting developers
working with / on said hosts. And this means it will again take a long
time before you notice any effect. (not to mention that Linux distros
also lag).
(additionally I wonder why people ask such a simple question on IRC
whilst googling provides your answer faster..)
Bottom line: I'd opt for keeping it.
Kind regards,
Mike van Riel
- snip *
(additionally I wonder why people ask such a simple question on IRC whilst
googling provides your answer faster..)
Most of the people coming to ##php on freenode asking questions like
that have a hard time learning (on their own or at all) - they expect
to be spoonfed. Changing the token name might lower the frequency of
this particular question, but it would have no overall effect on the
number of people coming to ask questions they could get answered in
two seconds by google.
Regards
Peter
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LinkedIn: plind
BeWelcome/Couchsurfing: Fake51
Twitter: kafe15
</hype
- snip *
(additionally I wonder why people ask such a simple question on IRC whilst
googling provides your answer faster..)Most of the people coming to ##php on freenode asking questions like
that have a hard time learning (on their own or at all) - they expect
to be spoonfed. Changing the token name might lower the frequency of
this particular question, but it would have no overall effect on the
number of people coming to ask questions they could get answered in
two seconds by google.Regards
Peter
It's the same argument everyone else is giving, and really it all comes
down to this.:
Nostalgia is valued over clarity and consistency.
Do you guys REALLY want to claim that?
On 30 October 2010 09:09, Mike Van Rielmike.vanriel@naenius.com wrote:
- snip *
(additionally I wonder why people ask such a simple question on IRC
whilst
googling provides your answer faster..)Most of the people coming to ##php on freenode asking questions like
that have a hard time learning (on their own or at all) - they expect
to be spoonfed. Changing the token name might lower the frequency of
this particular question, but it would have no overall effect on the
number of people coming to ask questions they could get answered in
two seconds by google.Regards
PeterIt's the same argument everyone else is giving, and really it all comes
down to this.:Nostalgia is valued over clarity and consistency.
Do you guys REALLY want to claim that?
I wasn't arguing for or against a switch, just providing some
background. That said, people with no google skills bugging you on irc
is a very poor excuse for change. As for the rest of the discussion,
both sides seem to have merit, in my opinion.
Regards
Peter
--
<hype>
WWW: plphp.dk / plind.dk
LinkedIn: plind
BeWelcome/Couchsurfing: Fake51
Twitter: kafe15
</hype
On 30 October 2010 09:09, Mike Van Rielmike.vanriel@naenius.com
wrote:
- snip *
(additionally I wonder why people ask such a simple question on
IRC whilst
googling provides your answer faster..)Most of the people coming to ##php on freenode asking questions like
that have a hard time learning (on their own or at all) - they expect
to be spoonfed. Changing the token name might lower the frequency of
this particular question, but it would have no overall effect on the
number of people coming to ask questions they could get answered in
two seconds by google.Regards
PeterIt's the same argument everyone else is giving, and really it all
comes down to this.:Nostalgia is valued over clarity and consistency.
Do you guys REALLY want to claim that?
If you are referring to my response, I believe I have given other
arguments than your claim, as have others.
The point is in the question: is it worth it?
Do you think it is worth it to change something which works
(functionally), has been there for 12 years and for the effort it
takes to persuade people to want to change it?
This all because people will have to google once in their carreer?
Another solution might be to add a rule to an IRC bot to automatically
provide the answer if the token name (and/or common misspellings) are
mentioned. This would instantly solve the issue about support requests.
Kind regards,
Mike van Riel
On 30 October 2010 09:09, Mike Van Rielmike.vanriel@naenius.com
wrote:
- snip *
(additionally I wonder why people ask such a simple question on IRC
whilst
googling provides your answer faster..)Most of the people coming to ##php on freenode asking questions like
that have a hard time learning (on their own or at all) - they expect
to be spoonfed. Changing the token name might lower the frequency of
this particular question, but it would have no overall effect on the
number of people coming to ask questions they could get answered in
two seconds by google.Regards
PeterIt's the same argument everyone else is giving, and really it all
comes down to this.:Nostalgia is valued over clarity and consistency.
Do you guys REALLY want to claim that?
If you are referring to my response, I believe I have given other
arguments than your claim, as have others.The point is in the question: is it worth it?
Do you think it is worth it to change something which works
(functionally), has been there for 12 years and for the effort it
takes to persuade people to want to change it?This all because people will have to google once in their carreer?
Another solution might be to add a rule to an IRC bot to automatically
provide the answer if the token name (and/or common misspellings) are
mentioned. This would instantly solve the issue about support requests.Kind regards,
Mike van Riel
I think it's more constructive to the language when we ask "Why Not?"
rather than "Why"? I already mentioned in my first email: It is worth it.
Automatic bot responses are prone to abuse.
I would prefer this was not changed.
+1 (for the same reasons)
I agree with Andi, Rasmus and the other people in favor.
This token name is part of the history of PHP and adds to it's
uniqueness.But besides this: renaming the constant is probably not going to solve
the problem (at least not anytime soon).Changing this constant would mean breaking BC (some people using the
tokenizer extension might use it) and thus officially it should only
be implemented in PHP-next.
This means that the support requests will be coming in for a long time
as it not even planned for release or anything.Suppose that this rename would happen in the next minor release: most
shared hosts lag immensily with their installed PHP version and I
reckon most questions come from inexperienced / starting developers
working with / on said hosts. And this means it will again take a long
time before you notice any effect. (not to mention that Linux distros
also lag).(additionally I wonder why people ask such a simple question on IRC
whilst googling provides your answer faster..)Bottom line: I'd opt for keeping it.
Kind regards,
Mike van Riel
Just want to make this point: the length of time for it to take affect
is not an argument for not implementing it. It'll come out when it's
out. The sooner we implement it, the sooner we'll notice the effect.
This goes for any change slanted for major release.
(Also if I understand, there is a synonym in Tokenizer anyway so both
would work and won't break BC, I just don't understand why the confusing
name has to show up in error messages).
WTF is T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM?
This has to be THE most asked question by new php developers when they come
across it. Can we please change the token name toT_DOUBLE_COLONso I don't
have to hear about it constantly?Those that disagree don't do enough PHP support to know how often it is
asked. it's worth it.Chad
Maybe, considering the easter egg nature of this token, one of the
following URLs should be included in the message ...
tinyurl.com/c8d7ek, tinyurl.com/25865ya or tinyurl.com/nlx98u.
Maybe just drop the tinyurl.com part - let's give those that can't
really something to complain about!
--
Richard Quadling
Twitter : EE : Zend
@RQuadling : e-e.com/M_248814.html : bit.ly/9O8vFY
WTF is T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM?
This has to be THE most asked question by new php developers when they
come across it. Can we please change the token name toT_DOUBLE_COLON
so I don't have to hear about it constantly?Those that disagree don't do enough PHP support to know how often it
is
asked. it's worth it.
-1
And I have done "enough" PHP support. :-)
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2010/11/1 Richard Lynch ceo@l-i-e.com
WTF is T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM?
This has to be THE most asked question by new php developers when they
come across it. Can we please change the token name toT_DOUBLE_COLON
so I don't have to hear about it constantly?Those that disagree don't do enough PHP support to know how often it
is
asked. it's worth it.-1
Instead of renaming the token, I prefer to associate a literal string to
each token, to have a legible error message, without the T_ being shown.
For example, we could use in the Bison grammar file:
%token T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM "::"
So that the error message become:
$ sapi/cli/php -r '::'
Parse error: syntax error, unexpected :: in Command line code on line 1
Instead of the known "unexpected T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM" one.
--
Regards,
Felipe Pena
2010/11/1 Richard Lynch ceo@l-i-e.com
WTF is T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM?
This has to be THE most asked question by new php developers when they
come across it. Can we please change the token name toT_DOUBLE_COLON
so I don't have to hear about it constantly?Those that disagree don't do enough PHP support to know how often it
is
asked. it's worth it.-1
Instead of renaming the token, I prefer to associate a literal string to
each token, to have a legible error message, without the T_ being shown.For example, we could use in the Bison grammar file:
%tokenT_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM"::"So that the error message become:
$ sapi/cli/php -r '::'
Parse error: syntax error, unexpected :: in Command line code on line 1Instead of the known "unexpected T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM" one.
Years and years ago that was the intent. I didn't think there was a
clean way to do that in yacc though.
-Rasmus
2010/11/1 Richard Lynch ceo@l-i-e.com
WTF is T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM?
This has to be THE most asked question by new php developers when they
come across it. Can we please change the token name toT_DOUBLE_COLON
so I don't have to hear about it constantly?Those that disagree don't do enough PHP support to know how often it
is
asked. it's worth it.-1
Instead of renaming the token, I prefer to associate a literal string to
each token, to have a legible error message, without the T_ being shown.For example, we could use in the Bison grammar file:
%tokenT_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM"::"So that the error message become:
$ sapi/cli/php -r '::'
Parse error: syntax error, unexpected :: in Command line code on line 1Instead of the known "unexpected T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM" one.
Years and years ago that was the intent. I didn't think there was a
clean way to do that in yacc though.
...
so when will we start replacing the tokens with literals?
Tyrael
2010/11/1 Richard Lynch ceo@l-i-e.com
WTF is T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM?
This has to be THE most asked question by new php developers when they
come across it. Can we please change the token name toT_DOUBLE_COLON
so I don't have to hear about it constantly?Those that disagree don't do enough PHP support to know how often it
is
asked. it's worth it.-1
Instead of renaming the token, I prefer to associate a literal string to
each token, to have a legible error message, without the T_ being shown.For example, we could use in the Bison grammar file:
%tokenT_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM"::"So that the error message become:
$ sapi/cli/php -r '::'
Parse error: syntax error, unexpected :: in Command line code on line 1Instead of the known "unexpected T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM" one.
Thanks Felipe, you are my hero.
Anybody else thinks that this thread is very similar to the last array
dereferencing discussion?
internals@lists.php.net/msg46789.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://www.mail-archive.com/internals@lists.php.net/msg46789.html
Somebody brought up the idea, most of the veterans tried to dismiss without
discussion, pointing out, that its an old topic, and nothing will change,
status quo, others tried to bend the thread to the lemon patch.
and Felipe solved the original problem that everybody thought impossible, or
much harder, than it was actually.
so I think we should ask Felipe more about the unsolvable problems in PHP,
and maybe we shouldn't stop discussions about old topics, because maybe the
environment around the problems changed with time.
Tyrael
2010/11/1 Richard Lynch ceo@l-i-e.com
WTF is T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM?
This has to be THE most asked question by new php developers when they
come across it. Can we please change the token name toT_DOUBLE_COLON
so I don't have to hear about it constantly?Those that disagree don't do enough PHP support to know how often it
is
asked. it's worth it.-1
Instead of renaming the token, I prefer to associate a literal string to
each token, to have a legible error message, without the T_ being shown.For example, we could use in the Bison grammar file:
%tokenT_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM"::"So that the error message become:
$ sapi/cli/php -r '::'
Parse error: syntax error, unexpected :: in Command line code on line 1Instead of the known "unexpected T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM" one.
+1 on implementing this so we don't have to wait for lemon.
While knowing how to use a search engine is good, it's even better to not
have to and save the time spent on it.
--
Regards,
Felipe Pena