[RFC] Square brackets shortcut View as Markdown

Well if confusing is the goal, then yes, since this is classic Perl.

I started using PHP, instead of Perl, just so that I would not need play
around with confusing syntax.

Tomi Kaistila
PHP Developer

On Thursday 10 January 2008 15:56:54 Hannes Magnusson wrote:

So you reject scalar type hinting because it isn't type casting and
can therefor confuses newbies - but scattering seemingly random
brackets around your code (to safe 5 key strokes) is obvious to users?

Noone would confuse this with named arguments?
Why can't I do function foo([] $array) {} ?

foo([]);
$var = [];
Is this really readable?

Are you really serious about this?

-Hannes

Hello Ryusuke,

I like b) !

marcus

Thursday, January 10, 2008, 11:07:36 AM, you wrote:

Hello, lists,

I'm tired to type "array()" many times. And I want to
declare arrays more easily. So I wrote the patch for
zend_language_parser.y which enables to declare arrays
with square brackets like some other languages.

Stanislav,
Sorry, I'm new in this list and I didn't know about past
discussion. As Marcus says, I'd like to ask around again.

There are three options:

a) Commit square bracket array shortcut patch
keys and values are separated by colons.
( http://www.opendogs.org/pub/php-5.3dev-080109-sbar.patch )
e.g.
$a = [1, 2, 3];
$b = ['foo': 'orange', 'bar': 'apple', 'baz': 'lemon'];

b) Commit square bracket array shortcut patch
keys and values are separated by double arrows.
( http://www.opendogs.org/pub/php-5.3dev-080109-sbar2.patch )
e.g.
$a = [1, 2, 3];
$b = ['foo' => 'orange', 'bar' => 'apple', 'baz' => 'lemon'];

c) Reject and keep using `array()'.
e.g.
$a = array(1, 2, 3);
$b = array('foo' => 'orange', 'bar' => 'apple', 'baz' => 'lemon');

These patches include the tests.

Which do you like? I like (a) the best.

Regards,

2008/1/6, Marcus Boerger helly@php.net:

Hello Stanislav,

tha makesw three then already, how about we ask around again?
Ryusuke, can you please start a new '[RFC] Square brackets shortcut'
thread to collect opinions and pass along the patch for that?

I like the anonymous function patch too. It is clean and simple. Maybe
you want to start a second '[RFC] Anonymous functions' thread with
that patch.

Can you also please add tests for both?

marcus

Wednesday, January 2, 2008, 7:51:06 PM, you wrote:

the square bracket array syntax patch for PHP 5.3,
http://www.opendogs.org/pub/php-5.3dev-080101-sbar.patch

I remember we discussed that already and it was rejected then (even
though myself and Andi liked it) - did the people that objected then
change their minds?

Best regards,
Marcus

--
/**

• Ryusuke SEKIYAMA
• rsky0711@gmail.com
  */

Best regards,
Marcus

Hi,

So you reject scalar type hinting because it isn't type casting and
can therefor confuses newbies - but scattering seemingly random
brackets around your code (to safe 5 key strokes) is obvious to users?

Noone would confuse this with named arguments?
Why can't I do function foo([] $array) {} ?
Can you do function foo(array() $array) {} ?

foo([]);
$var = [];
Is this really readable?
Looks readable to me ;-)

FWIW if it's going to be implemented I think (b) should be the choice
as it is more consistent with current syntax even though I like (a)
more.

Are you really serious about this?

-Hannes

Hello Ryusuke,

I like b) !

marcus

Thursday, January 10, 2008, 11:07:36 AM, you wrote:

Hello, lists,

I'm tired to type "array()" many times. And I want to
declare arrays more easily. So I wrote the patch for
zend_language_parser.y which enables to declare arrays
with square brackets like some other languages.

Stanislav,
Sorry, I'm new in this list and I didn't know about past
discussion. As Marcus says, I'd like to ask around again.

There are three options:

a) Commit square bracket array shortcut patch
keys and values are separated by colons.
( http://www.opendogs.org/pub/php-5.3dev-080109-sbar.patch )
e.g.
$a = [1, 2, 3];
$b = ['foo': 'orange', 'bar': 'apple', 'baz': 'lemon'];

b) Commit square bracket array shortcut patch
keys and values are separated by double arrows.
( http://www.opendogs.org/pub/php-5.3dev-080109-sbar2.patch )
e.g.
$a = [1, 2, 3];
$b = ['foo' => 'orange', 'bar' => 'apple', 'baz' => 'lemon'];

c) Reject and keep using `array()'.
e.g.
$a = array(1, 2, 3);
$b = array('foo' => 'orange', 'bar' => 'apple', 'baz' => 'lemon');

These patches include the tests.

Which do you like? I like (a) the best.

Regards,

2008/1/6, Marcus Boerger helly@php.net:

Hello Stanislav,

tha makesw three then already, how about we ask around again?
Ryusuke, can you please start a new '[RFC] Square brackets shortcut' thread
to collect opinions and pass along the patch for that?

I like the anonymous function patch too. It is clean and simple. Maybe you
want to start a second '[RFC] Anonymous functions' thread with that patch.

Can you also please add tests for both?

marcus

Wednesday, January 2, 2008, 7:51:06 PM, you wrote:

the square bracket array syntax patch for PHP 5.3,
http://www.opendogs.org/pub/php-5.3dev-080101-sbar.patch

I remember we discussed that already and it was rejected then (even
though myself and Andi liked it) - did the people that objected then
change their minds?

Best regards,
Marcus

--
/**

• Ryusuke SEKIYAMA
• rsky0711@gmail.com
  */

Best regards,
Marcus

--

--

Regards,
Giedrius

So you reject scalar type hinting because it isn't type casting and
can therefor confuses newbies - but scattering seemingly random
brackets around your code (to safe 5 key strokes) is obvious to users?

Noone would confuse this with named arguments?
Why can't I do function foo([] $array) {} ?

foo([]);
$var = [];
Is this really readable?

Are you really serious about this?

I don't think the only benefit in this would be to save keystrokes. I
think it looks better, and makes code more readable, whereas the current
way just looks like a function call.

-Hannes

Hello Ryusuke,

I like b) !

marcus

Thursday, January 10, 2008, 11:07:36 AM, you wrote:

Hello, lists,

I'm tired to type "array()" many times. And I want to
declare arrays more easily. So I wrote the patch for
zend_language_parser.y which enables to declare arrays
with square brackets like some other languages.

Stanislav,
Sorry, I'm new in this list and I didn't know about past
discussion. As Marcus says, I'd like to ask around again.

There are three options:

a) Commit square bracket array shortcut patch
keys and values are separated by colons.
( http://www.opendogs.org/pub/php-5.3dev-080109-sbar.patch )
e.g.
$a = [1, 2, 3];
$b = ['foo': 'orange', 'bar': 'apple', 'baz': 'lemon'];

b) Commit square bracket array shortcut patch
keys and values are separated by double arrows.
( http://www.opendogs.org/pub/php-5.3dev-080109-sbar2.patch )
e.g.
$a = [1, 2, 3];
$b = ['foo' => 'orange', 'bar' => 'apple', 'baz' => 'lemon'];

c) Reject and keep using `array()'.
e.g.
$a = array(1, 2, 3);
$b = array('foo' => 'orange', 'bar' => 'apple', 'baz' => 'lemon');

These patches include the tests.

Which do you like? I like (a) the best.

Regards,

2008/1/6, Marcus Boerger helly@php.net:

Hello Stanislav,

tha makesw three then already, how about we ask around again?
Ryusuke, can you please start a new '[RFC] Square brackets shortcut' thread
to collect opinions and pass along the patch for that?

I like the anonymous function patch too. It is clean and simple. Maybe you
want to start a second '[RFC] Anonymous functions' thread with that patch.

Can you also please add tests for both?

marcus

Wednesday, January 2, 2008, 7:51:06 PM, you wrote:

the square bracket array syntax patch for PHP 5.3,
http://www.opendogs.org/pub/php-5.3dev-080101-sbar.patch

I remember we discussed that already and it was rejected then (even
though myself and Andi liked it) - did the people that objected then
change their minds?

Best regards,
Marcus

--
/**

• Ryusuke SEKIYAMA
• rsky0711@gmail.com
  */

Best regards,
Marcus

So you reject scalar type hinting because it isn't type casting and
can therefor confuses newbies - but scattering seemingly random
brackets around your code (to safe 5 key strokes) is obvious to users?

Noone would confuse this with named arguments?
Why can't I do function foo([] $array) {} ?

foo([]);
$var = [];
Is this really readable?

Are you really serious about this?

I have to agree with this. It looks all cool and nice and stolen from
another language. But in the long end, all this does is saving you 5
chars to type, and lose a hell of a lot readability in the meanwhile.

(In case it's not obvious: -1)

regards,
Derick

I think next time Sam has three consecutive responses to the same thread
then he loses access to the list for a week :) (same rule for anyone
else). Tweaking the 'Subject' won't count as a different thread :)

Andi

-----Original Message-----
From: Hannes Magnusson [mailto:hannes.magnusson@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 6:49 AM
To: Sam Barrow
Cc: PHP Development
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Square brackets shortcut

Did you know that you don't have to reply multiple times to the same
post?
And even though Stas replies to every single post, you don't have to
do
it too.

Please read Andis "checklist" again;
http://news.php.net/php.internals/34494 - same "rules" apply to all
threads.

-Hannes

I just tried this out using option b, and I really like it.

$var = [1, 6, 434] ;

I think it looks good and helps code readability alot.

Hello, lists,

I'm tired to type "array()" many times. And I want to
declare arrays more easily. So I wrote the patch for
zend_language_parser.y which enables to declare arrays
with square brackets like some other languages.

Stanislav,
Sorry, I'm new in this list and I didn't know about past
discussion. As Marcus says, I'd like to ask around again.

There are three options:

a) Commit square bracket array shortcut patch
keys and values are separated by colons.
( http://www.opendogs.org/pub/php-5.3dev-080109-sbar.patch )
e.g.
$a = [1, 2, 3];
$b = ['foo': 'orange', 'bar': 'apple', 'baz': 'lemon'];

b) Commit square bracket array shortcut patch
keys and values are separated by double arrows.
( http://www.opendogs.org/pub/php-5.3dev-080109-sbar2.patch )
e.g.
$a = [1, 2, 3];
$b = ['foo' => 'orange', 'bar' => 'apple', 'baz' => 'lemon'];

c) Reject and keep using `array()'.
e.g.
$a = array(1, 2, 3);
$b = array('foo' => 'orange', 'bar' => 'apple', 'baz' =>
'lemon');

These patches include the tests.

Which do you like? I like (a) the best.

Regards,

2008/1/6, Marcus Boerger helly@php.net:

Hello Stanislav,

tha makesw three then already, how about we ask around again?
Ryusuke, can you please start a new '[RFC] Square brackets
shortcut' thread
to collect opinions and pass along the patch for that?

I like the anonymous function patch too. It is clean and simple.
Maybe you
want to start a second '[RFC] Anonymous functions' thread with
that patch.

Can you also please add tests for both?

marcus

Wednesday, January 2, 2008, 7:51:06 PM, you wrote:

the square bracket array syntax patch for PHP 5.3,
http://www.opendogs.org/pub/php-5.3dev-080101-sbar.patch

I remember we discussed that already and it was rejected then
(even
though myself and Andi liked it) - did the people that
objected
then
change their minds?

Best regards,
Marcus

--
/**

• Ryusuke SEKIYAMA
• rsky0711@gmail.com
  */

+1

firstly, square brackets are natural short cut to array(...) that you can
find in many many language, one may argue this is merely a minor addition.
however, PHP is already a very verbose compare to other language, syntactic
improvements adds up it allows us to create much more readable code.

someone raise up the readability issue of nested array, this is not a
language issue, but rather programming style issue. its up to you to make it
clean or verbose as you want it to be. yes, associative array may can look
awkward. [] is just a short cut, there is nothing stopping you mix and
match.

$lists = array(
'first' => [ 1, 2 ,3, 4 ] ,
'second' => [ 45, 33, 19 ]
);

Lastly, one may again argue this will introduce extra workload for tester,
commiter, patchers. This is a new addition to the language, there is no
Backward compatibility issue. This isn't a technical issue, but rather
management issue.

PHP On the language design level hasn't been making much progress, PHP needs
to move forward. proper closure, GC, and this.

Antony Dovgal wrote:

Hello, lists,

I'm tired to type "array()" many times.

-1

The parser in my head is unable to parse this:
<?php
$var=["str"];
$var["str"]=1;
?>

Eh, that would just come out as
[ 0 => "str",
"str" => 1 ]

Not too problematic in my mind.
+1 for square brackets.

--

--
Best Regards,

Taylor luk

b) Commit square bracket array shortcut patch
keys and values are separated by double arrows.
Breaks backwards compatibility to save typing five characters. See
above. -1.

It doesn't break backwards compatibility; the new syntax is an
alias, not a
replacement. The older array() syntax will still be in place, if I've
understood the earlier posts correctly.

Maybe I did not express myself well enough: this introduces a new
syntax for something that isn't broken that doesn't work on existing
PHP versions.

--
Geoffrey Sneddon
<http://gsnedders.com/