Every once in a while somebody has to speak out about the state
of the union and bear the brunt of some anger... with a hope
that things will change for the better.
2 years back I started out asking a question being
concerned by the frustration caused to many users (and vendors
alike). Frustration due to many of the useful extensions forever
being in experimental mode for the longest time. I asked ...
" And exactly how long is it expected to continue to stay EXPERIMENTAL ?"
The response was a predictable one, expressing indifference...
"Between 15 days and 15 months"
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=php-dev&m=103159872214635&w=2
So I decided to analyze CVS repository and posted the conclusions...
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=php-dev&m=103161600832402&w=2
It included an analysis of how long each of the extensions had been
in that mode.
To point out a few:
sockets, openssl, crack, domxml
had been in that mode for 2 years ( i.e.. more than 15months).
And today they are all still experimental. So that's their
4th (experimental) birthday.
Now just for the kicks lets take the case of Sockets extension and analyze its
history.
There was a msg on 21st feb 2002 on this mailing list.
Here we see some kind of encouraging remarks about achieving
stabilization by 4.2.X...
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=php-dev&m=101424999803151&w=2
I would like to fix all of this by 4.2.X. I propose that we then mark
the extension as stable, and freeze the API.
</quote>
on Sept 6 2002, a frustrated user asked..
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=php-dev&m=103134854829058&w=2
and the response was...
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=php-dev&m=103135145531682&w=2
If you're so desparate to have things cemented, write a patch,
post it here and we'll commit it.
If you don't have the skills, you might consider offering those that
do some positive incentive to do it for you.
</quote>
Basically...do it yourself or buzz-off attitude. And this is not the only
occurrence of such backlash.
After some folks stepped up the pressure, very encouraging comment on
sept 12 2002 that it will indeed make into production soon....
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=php-dev&m=103179363830424&w=2
sockets, openssl, domxml are very useful extensions. Will these (and all the others)
ever get out of experimental ? doesn't look like. How about the shiny
new SimpleXML or sql-lite? If history is in any indicator...then I guess they will
suffer the same fate. And likely that their users will also be slapped in the face.
domxml has already had a super long experimental career.
And now all this new stuff has gone into it. So I guess that makes it
even less likely to make it out of experimental. Please don't think
I am picking out these due to some vengeance for the people behind it.
I am giving examples to see where we have been, where we are
and are we really going anywhere.
If these are experimental then why include them in the propaganda ?
Just to shoo-off the people for whom all this was created in the
1st place ?
Like the bank telling you that they will give you a "free" checking account.
Then when you complain your money isnt totalling up to ur deposits,
they shoot back at you saying ... "checking accounts are experimental
and it was mentioned in the brochure"
Today I see PHP5 with a set of promises that are congruent with the
earlier PHP4 release.
From the php4 release I can recall some of the propaganda...
- redesigned scripting engine (much faster, much better, much ...)
- Under UNIX features a much smarter and generalized build process (smarter, nicer )
- enhanced object oriented programming - (now we've got it right!)
- new extensions with cool new features
- Java support (still experimental)
- XSL (still experimental)
- SOAP (still experimental)
- ...
The same mantra being repeated is a sign that we didn't get it right
the last time we chanted that mantra....and by inductive inference this
effort is also questionable.
But the first few are all right to promote as they actually made it into
the product, got used and are properly supported. But blowing the horn
about new functionality included in experimental extensions should be
deplorable and considered dishonest practice.
Hopefully belts will be tightened up around the extensions and the
responsibility taken up by their authors.
-- Roshan
Hopefully belts will be tightened up around the extensions and the
responsibility taken up by their authors.
Wow, that was quite a rant from someone who hasn't contributed a damn
thing.
People volunteer their time and effort to this project. There are no
guarantees that any of this code won't make your cpu melt or cause your
curtains to catch fire. Ranting at a bunch of volunteers is utterly
useless and counterproductive. If you have a genuine interest in seeing
things improve, get involved. Pick your favourite extension that is
troubling you, talk to the authors and other users and figure out what
needs to be done to solve its remaining issues. If you do that, your
words might mean something.
-Rasmus
Here we have a polite, if provocative, email, and two very nasty and
rude responses to it. Followed by a polite response from Roshan. If
you walk into a room and see an argument where one side is yelling and
being rude, and one person is responding calmly and politely, who
would you automatically (given no other information) assume is right?
Just a thought from an outside observer.
Dan
<snip Roshan's thoughtful and polite email>
Wow, that was quite a rant from someone who hasn't contributed a damn
thing.
Ranting at a bunch of volunteers is utterly useless and counterproductive.
If you do that, your words might mean something.
Thanks for this quite useless and unproductive email.
Both you and roshan are more than welcome, if not encouraged, to stop
posting if you find us childish, immature and generally "uncool dude."
We apologize for our inferiority, we really wish we had something better
to do than respond to your mails.
-Sterling
Here we have a polite, if provocative, email, and two very nasty and
rude responses to it. Followed by a polite response from Roshan. If
you walk into a room and see an argument where one side is yelling and
being rude, and one person is responding calmly and politely, who
would you automatically (given no other information) assume is right?Just a thought from an outside observer.
Dan<snip Roshan's thoughtful and polite email>
Wow, that was quite a rant from someone who hasn't contributed a damn
thing.
Ranting at a bunch of volunteers is utterly useless and counterproductive.
If you do that, your words might mean something.Thanks for this quite useless and unproductive email.
Actually, I can't imagine that either side was "shouting".
Imagine though, if you will, that PHP is the UN.
You're all delegates or whatever, sitting in a circle around the room
and someone steps in to address you. They criticise existing
practices, and suggest that others need to put more effort into their
volunteer work.
Now how would you react to that?
If instead, you stepped in there with a nice long list of specific
improvements that can be made, and offered to help make those
improvements whereever you can, then you would get a startingly
different reception, wouldnt you agree?
This is not to say that Roshan isnt correct in his assessment, there
probably are a few practices here and there that we could improve
upon. But saying "work harder, fix it yourself" isnt going to help at
all now is it?
As the sayings go, changes arent made unless you're willing to die for
what you believe in. Nothing so drastic here, but if you want
something done, put in the effort to get it done!
Personally, if I'd been a PHP developer, I'd have been rather offended
by someone coming in and calling me lazy for not volunteering more of
my time than I can give.
-bok
Here we have a polite, if provocative, email, and two very nasty and
rude responses to it. Followed by a polite response from Roshan. If
you walk into a room and see an argument where one side is yelling and
being rude, and one person is responding calmly and politely, who
would you automatically (given no other information) assume is right?Just a thought from an outside observer.
Dan<snip Roshan's thoughtful and polite email>
Wow, that was quite a rant from someone who hasn't contributed a damn
thing.
Ranting at a bunch of volunteers is utterly useless and counterproductive.
If you do that, your words might mean something.Thanks for this quite useless and unproductive email.
I may be mistaken (I often am,) but I don't think anyone has asked
anyone else to put in more time than they are currently. All that was
asked for is a change in the way the PHP team does things. As I
glance over Roshan's first email, all I see are requests that sound
fairly reasonable. Things like "Maybe we shouldn't advertise feature
sets that are still experimental" and "Maybe we should finish up with
these libraries before we move on to new ones." Later he suggested
that experimental libraries be removed from the core installation. I
don't think that any of these involve asking people to do more work or
contribute more time or effort. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Dan
Personally, if I'd been a PHP developer, I'd have been rather offended
by someone coming in and calling me lazy for not volunteering more of
my time than I can give.-bok
Daniel C. wrote:
Things like "Maybe we shouldn't advertise feature
sets that are still experimental" and "Maybe we should finish up with
these libraries before we move on to new ones." Later he suggested
that experimental libraries be removed from the core installation.
We are already doing this. It is called PECL ...
--
Hartmut Holzgraefe <hartmut@php.net
Thanks for this quite useless and unproductive email.
I suggest to inform yourself slightly better on the tons of improvements
the PHP development team have made and where we are today vs. 4 years ago.
I suggest next time, if you want to be productive, you can contact us with
a concrete problem and proposed solution.
Andi
At 05:32 PM 8/25/2004 -0700, Naik, Roshan wrote:
Every once in a while somebody has to speak out about the state
of the union and bear the brunt of some anger... with a hope
that things will change for the better.2 years back I started out asking a question being
concerned by the frustration caused to many users (and vendors
alike). Frustration due to many of the useful extensions forever
being in experimental mode for the longest time. I asked ..." And exactly how long is it expected to continue to stay EXPERIMENTAL ?"
The response was a predictable one, expressing indifference...
"Between 15 days and 15 months"
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=php-dev&m=103159872214635&w=2
So I decided to analyze CVS repository and posted the conclusions...
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=php-dev&m=103161600832402&w=2It included an analysis of how long each of the extensions had been
in that mode.To point out a few:
sockets, openssl, crack, domxmlhad been in that mode for 2 years ( i.e.. more than 15months).
And today they are all still experimental. So that's their
4th (experimental) birthday.Now just for the kicks lets take the case of Sockets extension and analyze its
history.There was a msg on 21st feb 2002 on this mailing list.
<quote> Timeline & Stabilization =========================
Here we see some kind of encouraging remarks about achieving
stabilization by 4.2.X...
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=php-dev&m=101424999803151&w=2I would like to fix all of this by 4.2.X. I propose that we then mark
the extension as stable, and freeze the API.
</quote>on Sept 6 2002, a frustrated user asked..
<quote> Do the maintainers of the PHP sockets extension ever intend to get their act together and cement the API, or are people who need this functionality going to be forced to rewrite their code every time there's a new point-release of PHP? </quote>
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=php-dev&m=103134854829058&w=2and the response was...
<quote> Which part of "EXPERIMENTAL" in the docs at [snipped url] don't you understand?
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=php-dev&m=103135145531682&w=2If you're so desparate to have things cemented, write a patch,
post it here and we'll commit it.
If you don't have the skills, you might consider offering those that
do some positive incentive to do it for you.
</quote>Basically...do it yourself or buzz-off attitude. And this is not the only
occurrence of such backlash.After some folks stepped up the pressure, very encouraging comment on
<quote> Most of the other work needed to mark the extension stable has been done, all that remains is that I have some small win32 work left to do. </quote>
sept 12 2002 that it will indeed make into production soon....
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=php-dev&m=103179363830424&w=2sockets, openssl, domxml are very useful extensions. Will these (and all
the others)
ever get out of experimental ? doesn't look like. How about the shiny
new SimpleXML or sql-lite? If history is in any indicator...then I guess
they will
suffer the same fate. And likely that their users will also be slapped in
the face.
domxml has already had a super long experimental career.
And now all this new stuff has gone into it. So I guess that makes it
even less likely to make it out of experimental. Please don't think
I am picking out these due to some vengeance for the people behind it.
I am giving examples to see where we have been, where we are
and are we really going anywhere.If these are experimental then why include them in the propaganda ?
Just to shoo-off the people for whom all this was created in the
1st place ?Like the bank telling you that they will give you a "free" checking account.
Then when you complain your money isnt totalling up to ur deposits,
they shoot back at you saying ... "checking accounts are experimental
and it was mentioned in the brochure"Today I see PHP5 with a set of promises that are congruent with the
earlier PHP4 release.From the php4 release I can recall some of the propaganda...
- redesigned scripting engine (much faster, much better, much ...)
- Under UNIX features a much smarter and generalized build process
(smarter, nicer )- enhanced object oriented programming - (now we've got it right!)
- new extensions with cool new features
- Java support (still experimental)
- XSL (still experimental)
- SOAP (still experimental)
- ...
The same mantra being repeated is a sign that we didn't get it right
the last time we chanted that mantra....and by inductive inference this
effort is also questionable.But the first few are all right to promote as they actually made it into
the product, got used and are properly supported. But blowing the horn
about new functionality included in experimental extensions should be
deplorable and considered dishonest practice.Hopefully belts will be tightened up around the extensions and the
responsibility taken up by their authors.-- Roshan
" And exactly how long is it expected to continue to stay EXPERIMENTAL
?"The response was a predictable one, expressing indifference...
"Between 15 days and 15 months"
I'm afraid Derick's response was somewhat incorrect. Here is a more precise
answer to your question.
Whenever the developer can be bothered to remove the EXPERIMENTAL file. The
probability of said event is somewhere between your chances of winning a
lottery and getting hit a by car. You can however increase the probability of
the extension becoming "stable" by making meaningful contributions such as
writing patches and/or giving developer(s) incentives to put more time
towards extension's development.
Ilia
Just to stop some maybe upcoming myths
sockets, openssl, domxml are very useful extensions. Will these (and all the others)
ever get out of experimental ?
In PHP 5, dom and xsl are not EXPERIMENTAL anymore. This change should
have happend already with the release of 5.0.0, but simply just was
forgotten. And a simple and short mail or bugreport would have been
enough to make us aware of that fact...
IMHO, we could remove the experimental tag from PHP 4's domxml, as well.
It's stable enough to be used in production and the API certainly won't
change in the future ;)
chregu