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Hi,

I know I shouldn't feed the troll, but I want to say this once and for all and
be clear about it.

On 15 August 2012 at 10:32 Lester Caine lester@lsces.co.uk wrote:

I am trying to follow all the latest threads on various decorators, casting,
contracts, iterators, interfaces and the rest but I have to be honest ... I
simply don't understand the majority of what is being discussed. All right I
don't have to use it, but on the whole I have no problem with any of the
existing code. Except perhaps for zend, but that is mainly because I just
don't
work the way it is trying to force me. I can quite happily work on existing
third party libraries, debug and fix problems, and move forward. But the
examples being given simply don't fit with my view of how PHP works.

How much of this taint/reflection/... is actually going to be used by the
majority of users? I keep seeing references to 'compile time' and thinking
when
on earth does compiling come into the equation? When I process a page request
I
load just the components needed to do the job, and if something is wrong I
give
an error page. A hell of a lot of the comments being made relate to the IDE
and
THAT is where the bulk of this checking should be provided, not loading down
the
runtime engine with checks that should have been done when writing the code?

The examples don't have to fit the way you think PHP works. PHP doesn't have to
work the way you want, and it doesn't have to do only what you want. PHP should
be a rich language, a language enabling someone to do all the wonderful things
they need to do, not necessarily only what you want to do.

Regarding checks and such, you know, PHP will be filled with checks in the
runtime anyway because you need to parse and validate the code in the first
place.

And you say how much of these features will be used by the vast majority of
users? Probably not all of it. When I use, say, Python, I only use a bit of it.
There are lots of functions, libraries, OOP features, etc. I have never used.
But when I need them someday, they are there for me to use. Same goes for PHP.
PHP is rich with features. It should be able to be flexible and adaptable to
different situations. Sure, many users will not need or use these features. But
there are also quite a few users who need these features to do something, and
otherwise need fancy hacks and such to do them.

PHP should cater to all its users: the people who don't know what objects and
classes are, only use global variables, and have never used functions, and have
no separation between model/view/controller; the people who use OOP and build
simple class hierarchies, rarely needing things like reflection or interfaces;
but also the people who use OOP extensively, with interfaces, big hierarchies,
namespaces, traits, and so on, with all sorts of wonderful patterns that allow
them to do amazing things.

PHP is not the language of the newbie. PHP is not the language of the elite. It
is the language of everyone who uses it, and it should cater to that.

Who knows, maybe you'll end up using these features, some day.

I know I keep harping on about it, but it still seems to me that there is no
cohesive basic framework defined for the core functionality needed to run
simple
php scripts? SOmething on to of which all the esoteric bits can be added and
explained without having to dig through numerous RFC's and release notes to
see
what the current state of play is :(

Well, it depends. For me, the core PHP functionality for basic PHP scripts was
PHP/FI 2.0. It has functions, variables, arrays, and mysql. And that's all I
need, I suppose.

For you, it might be PHP 3 or PHP 4. And that's why there is no "cohesive basic
framework defined for the core functionality needed to run simple php scripts."
Because we all have different ideas of "basic", "simple" and "core
functionality" :)

--
Lester Caine - G8HFL

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--

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Andrew Faulds
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