Hello internals,
It is this time of year again where we proposed a list of deprecations to add in PHP 8.6:
https://wiki.php.net/rfc/deprecations_php_8_6
As a reminder, this list has been compiled over the course of the past year by different people.
And as usual, each deprecation will be voted in isolation.
We still have a bit of time anyone else to propose additional deprecations, and if you have write access feel free to add them directly to the RFC.
Please note that with the new RFC policy rules the RFC must be finalized and in a "frozen" state by the 13th of July at the latest.
Some deprecations should be non-controversial, others a bit more.
If a deprecation is really controversial, it might warrant its own dedicated RFC or be dropped altogether.
Best regards,
Gina P. Banyard
Hi Gina,
Le lun. 22 juin 2026, 15:19, Gina P. Banyard internals@gpb.moe a écrit :
Hello internals,
It is this time of year again where we proposed a list of deprecations to
add in PHP 8.6:https://wiki.php.net/rfc/deprecations_php_8_6
As a reminder, this list has been compiled over the course of the past
year by different people.And as usual, each deprecation will be voted in isolation.
We still have a bit of time anyone else to propose additional
deprecations, and if you have write access feel free to add them directly
to the RFC.
Please note that with the new RFC policy rules the RFC must be finalized
and in a "frozen" state by the 13th of July at the latest.Some deprecations should be non-controversial, others a bit more.
If a deprecation is really controversial, it might warrant its own
dedicated RFC or be dropped altogether.Best regards,
Gina P. Banyard
After a quick check, I'm wondering about
Deprecate
CURLOPT_PROGRESSFUNCTIONforcurl_setopt()
Can you expand on this?
Thanks,
Nicolas
It is this time of year again where we proposed a list of deprecations to add in PHP 8.6:
Hi Gina, thanks for working on this.
Unfortunately none of the proposals contain a proper impact analysis.
I don't hold this against you personally, I know this RFC is the work of
quite a few people, but I do find it terribly irresponsible that the
impact of these deprecations is not outlined for the voters to help
their decision making.
In my experience, it would be quite trivial to create an impact analysis
for the fast majority (~70%) of the current proposals using
PHP_CodeSniffer and PHPCompatibility.
I'd be happy to help get that set up if there is interest in adding such
an analysis to the proposals.
Smile,
Juliette
On Mon, Jun 22, 2026 at 6:59 PM Juliette Reinders Folmer <
php-internals_nospam@adviesenzo.nl> wrote:
It is this time of year again where we proposed a list of deprecations to add in PHP 8.6:
https://wiki.php.net/rfc/deprecations_php_8_6Hi Gina, thanks for working on this.
Unfortunately none of the proposals contain a proper impact analysis.
I don't hold this against you personally, I know this RFC is the work of
quite a few people, but I do find it terribly irresponsible that the impact
of these deprecations is not outlined for the voters to help their decision
making.In my experience, it would be quite trivial to create an impact analysis
for the fast majority (~70%) of the current proposals using PHP_CodeSniffer
and PHPCompatibility.I'd be happy to help get that set up if there is interest in adding such
an analysis to the proposals.Smile,
Juliette
Hi Juliette,
Thanks for raising this.
For the return-in-finally deprecation, I did run an impact analysis.
I just kept it out of the RFC entry itself, partly to keep the entry short,
partly because I'd already shared the core of it in
my original pre-RFC message on this list (
https://externals.io/message/131393#131393 - which lists all 12 affected
sites), and partly
because I hadn't gotten around to reposting it in this thread yet.
So here it is, for you and for anyone else following along...
I compiled the ~5000 most-installed Composer packages with the patched
build and collected every site that triggers the new deprecation.
It shows up in 12 places across 9 packages, about 0.18%.
Reading each one:
- 3 are latent bugs the deprecation would catch, where the finally
return discards an exception the try can throw - the other 9 either deliberately rely on the discard or are harmless
The full write-up, with the per-site breakdown and the script to reproduce
it, is here:
https://github.com/aldemeery/php-rfcs/tree/master/deprecate-return-in-finally
Thanks,
Osama
On Mon, Jun 22, 2026 at 6:59 PM Juliette Reinders Folmer
<php-internals_nospam@adviesenzo.nl
mailto:php-internals_nospam@adviesenzo.nl> wrote:It is this time of year again where we proposed a list of deprecations to add in PHP 8.6: https://wiki.php.net/rfc/deprecations_php_8_6Unfortunately none of the proposals contain a proper impact analysis.For the return-in-finally deprecation, I did run an impact analysis.
I just kept it out of the RFC entry itself, partly to keep the entry
short, partly because I'd already shared the core of it in
my original pre-RFC message on this list
(https://externals.io/message/131393#131393 - which lists all 12
affected sites), and partly
because I hadn't gotten around to reposting it in this thread yet.
...
The full write-up, with the per-site breakdown and the script to
reproduce it, is here:
https://github.com/aldemeery/php-rfcs/tree/master/deprecate-return-in-finally
Thanks Osama! And yes, I remember you posting those impact analysis
results to the list.
I believe it would be good to include that summary in the RFC text.
Would make your proposal the (positive) exception to the rule ;-)
Smile, Juliette
Hi
Unfortunately none of the proposals contain a proper impact analysis.
Unless your definition of “proper” differs from mine, this is false. As
an example, the “Deprecate using "let" as an identifier” deprecation
proposal contains this paragraph:
The analysis performed at part of the let construct (Block Scoping) RFC indicated an insignificant usage of “let” in the wild.
which is more than “none of the proposals”. The same is true for
“Deprecate returning from a finally block” proposal.
But as every year:
- Harmful functionality does not become less harmful, just because it is
widely used. - Deprecations are not a breaking change. This is even explicitly
written down in the PHP project’s policy as of the
https://wiki.php.net/rfc/policy-release-process-update RFC.
A majority of the deprecation messages provide actionable advice to the
user, and all of the proposals have a proper justification - even if you
might personally disagree with it. As an example, I don't personally
agree with the deprecation of metaphone(), see
https://news-web.php.net/php.internals/130806.
Best regards
Tim Düsterhus
Hi
Unfortunately none of the proposals contain a proper impact analysis.
Unless your definition of “proper” differs from mine, this is false.
As an example, the “Deprecate using "let" as an identifier”
deprecation proposal contains this paragraph:The analysis performed at part of the let construct (Block Scoping)
RFC indicated an insignificant usage of “let” in the wild.which is more than “none of the proposals”. The same is true for
“Deprecate returning from a finally block” proposal.But as every year:
- Harmful functionality does not become less harmful, just because it
is widely used.- Deprecations are not a breaking change. This is even explicitly
written down in the PHP project’s policy as of the
https://wiki.php.net/rfc/policy-release-process-update RFC.A majority of the deprecation messages provide actionable advice to
the user, and all of the proposals have a proper justification - even
if you might personally disagree with it. As an example, I don't
personally agree with the deprecation ofmetaphone(), see
https://news-web.php.net/php.internals/130806.
Tim, please don't try to gaslight me.
The fact that one out of twentyfive proposals has some vague statement
about the impact, without any details of what was analysed or how,
without definition of "insignificant", and without a link to details
giving credibility to that statement, only goes to highlight that these
proposals lack a proper impact analysis.
I agree though that the "finally block" proposal is the only positive
exception to this.
Other than that, I did not express an opinion on the details of the
individual proposals, but (as every year) you seem to draw conclusions
based on things I never said.
The fact that you even feel the need to point out that "deprecations are
not a breaking change" is extremely offensive in and of itself. You
should know better.
Please don't do that.
Smile,
Juliette
Hi
[reordering the quoted parts for this reply to read more nicely]
The fact that you even feel the need to point out that "deprecations
are
not a breaking change" is extremely offensive in and of itself.
It is insofar relevant that deprecations have zero immediate impact.
There might be an impact once the actual removal happens, but users have
at least 4 years until the PHP version that first made them aware that
something is deprecated goes out of (security) support and they might be
required to upgrade to a PHP version where the deprecated functionality
changed or was removed. It is not unlikely that a product or application
will be retired before the four years are over.
The fact that one out of twentyfive proposals has some vague statement
about the impact, without any details of what was analysed or how,
without definition of "insignificant", and without a link to details
giving credibility to that statement, only goes to highlight that these
proposals lack a proper impact analysis.
The sentence in question contains a link to the RFC where the analysis
was made. The “Backward Incompatible Changes” section of that RFC
contains concrete numbers. The corresponding RFC discussion - which is
linked in the RFC - provides additional information with regard to the
methodology (in https://news-web.php.net/php.internals/129074).
And generally speaking an “Impact Analysis”, particularly one that is
based on analyzing existing code, cannot capture any positive impact the
deprecation (and ultimate removal) has on the ecosystem.
As an example the “Passing objects which are interpreted as arrays”
proposals (which I would count as one) are proposing to deprecate
something that is fundamentally broken by allowing to violate core
engine assumptions and where straight-forward alternatives are suggested
in the deprecation message. This kind of deprecation feels like the
PHP-equivalent of passing a law to specifying the ban of sale of Tobacco
to folks born after “4 years from now”, which I think some countries
already did. Sure this ban will lead to folks in the Tobacco industry
losing their job, because of the ever-shrinking market, but they are
being provided a 4-year heads-up and some of the employees might even be
retired then. And the benefits to the society (and e.g. the health
system) far outweigh the drawbacks of keeping the Tobacco industry and
associated jobs. And to close the loop to PHP: The core developers are
the health workers of the language (and engine) and keeping such a
fundamentally broken feature alive means they will have to continue to
deal with the most obscure of bug reports resulting from this.
For things like deprecating is_long(), the positive impact is
certainly smaller. But here there is a “positive impact” to be had in
making it easier for users to learn PHP. It would be a reasonable
interpretation for is_long() to mean “a large value” or for
is_double to mean “is an array containing two elements”. With the
expectation that PHP will keep being relevant for the next thirty years
and counting and programming being more approachable and relevant than
ever, I'd say it's a reasonable claim that there will be more PHP code
written in the next 30 years than has been written in the past 30 years
and thus something that the benefit to new users is weighing more
heavily than the cost to existing users.
Other than that, I did not express an opinion on the details of the
individual proposals.
I am thus taking issue with the unconditional request of an “impact
analysis”, which will inherently be biased due to the inability to
capture and measure anticipated positive impact and thus will not help
make the reader make a more informed decision.
Is there some specific proposal where you feel there is a stark
mismatch between the cost for existing code and the benefit in making
the language easier to learn / the benefit in pointing out possible
unnoticed mistakes in existing code / the language more maintainable for
the core developers and where you feel extra research or justification
might be warranted?
As Gina said in her email in the PHP 8.4 deprecation discussion
(https://news-web.php.net/php.internals/124428): Deprecations are not
being proposed because the author gets enjoyment out of causing extra
work to PHP users, but because they feel they identified a situation
where they can make a positive impact.
Best regards
Tim Düsterhus
It is insofar relevant that deprecations have zero immediate impact. There might be an impact once the actual removal happens, but users have at least 4 years until the PHP version that first made them aware that something is deprecated goes out of (security) support and they might be required to upgrade to a PHP version where the deprecated functionality changed or was removed.
I hate this argument.
Unless otherwise stated, a proposal to deprecate something is a proposal to remove / forbid it in future. The impact analysis being asked for is the impact of that removal / prohibition.
That analysis can absolutely account for the fact that removal won't be immediate. For example, maybe all the uses found are in code that will need rewriting for some other reason. Or maybe there's evidence that all the uses found are in fast-moving code that is unlikely to be maintained long term.
I don't think anyone is suggesting a threshold where "use in X packages" automatically disqualifies the proposal. We're just asking for the information to weigh the cost and benefit of the end goal that the deprecation is trying to achieve.
I am thus taking issue with the unconditional request of an “impact
analysis”, which will inherently be biased due to the inability to
capture and measure anticipated positive impact and thus will not help
make the reader make a more informed decision.
Bias is inevitable: listing the benefits of changing something without any mention of its impact on existing code is also bias. To knowingly omit information that might weaken your case would be dishonest.
If you think the raw numbers don't tell the whole story, it's up to you to explain why. When I proposed to deprecate utf8_encode/decode, I looked into every single usage I could find, so I could make the case that it was used wrong more often than right. Most removals don't need that level of detail, because often some easy numbers do tell a clear story.
Is there some specific proposal where you feel there is a stark
mismatch between the cost for existing code and the benefit in making
the language easier to learn
How can anyone answer that question without some information about the cost for existing code? Are you saying that every voter should perform their own research on every proposal?
I'm with Juliette on this - any proposal which doesn't have some information about expected impact will get an automatic "No" vote from me.
Rowan Tommins
[IMSoP]
Hi
Am 2026-06-24 17:29, schrieb Rowan Tommins [IMSoP]:
It is insofar relevant that deprecations have zero immediate impact.
There might be an impact once the actual removal happens, but users
have at least 4 years until the PHP version that first made them aware
that something is deprecated goes out of (security) support and they
might be required to upgrade to a PHP version where the deprecated
functionality changed or was removed.I hate this argument.
Unless otherwise stated, a proposal to deprecate something is a
proposal to remove / forbid it in future. The impact analysis being
asked for is the impact of that removal / prohibition.
Two years for PHP 8.4 we also had proposals that explicitly specified
that no removal was planned for now, that removal would be left to a
separate vote and explicit promises about when the removal may happen at
the earliest (uniqid and md5/sha1). Back then “just deprecation, no
removal” was considered to be an unacceptable impact in discussion and
the proposal was ultimately declined.
The deprecation period also allows us to obtain at least one year of
data before the version that does the removal would be released. If it
turns out that we missed something during the proposal - e.g. by issues
being filed in the tracker, the deprecation can still be reversed and
the functionality not actually changed or removed. One example would be
the deprecation of __sleep() last year and I seem to remember that
someone mentioned before that another deprecation that already shipped
also wasn't followed through with a removal and instead be reverted.
Bias is inevitable: listing the benefits of changing something without
any mention of its impact on existing code is also bias. To knowingly
omit information that might weaken your case would be dishonest.If you think the raw numbers don't tell the whole story, it's up to you
to explain why. When I proposed to deprecate utf8_encode/decode, I
looked into every single usage I could find, so I could make the case
that it was used wrong more often than right. Most removals don't need
that level of detail, because often some easy numbers do tell a clear
story.
I believe that raw numbers don't tell a correct story for any of the
proposals and fundamentally can't. Any kind of impact analysis performed
by the RFC authors can naturally only account for public code (and their
own code) and an analysis on Packagist packages, as usually done,
completely disregards anything that is not published on Packagist. An
example of the latter would be many applications that while relying on
Packagist for their dependencies are not themselves published on
Packagist. An analysis on the top X Packagist packages will further be
biased towards the big frameworks, which from my experience will have
the least trouble to adjust for deprecations. And then of course some
proposals are not (practically) analyzable with (naive) static analysis
alone, since they will require pulling the entire dependency tree for
each package to get the full type information from dependencies. And
others require code to already be in a good shape to be analyzable
properly, which based on my experience likely is code that has already
identified the functionality that is proposed for deprecation as
problematic and is thus not affected at all.
Given the above, I feel that you might as well roll a dice to come up
with a number that would be equally likely to represent the actual
situation.
Is there some specific proposal where you feel there is a stark
mismatch between the cost for existing code and the benefit in making
the language easier to learnHow can anyone answer that question without some information about the
cost for existing code? Are you saying that every voter should perform
their own research on every proposal?
We have a diverse set of voters, many of them with multi-year experience
with PHP, Open Source, different employers or clients in case of
agencies. I believe that they will be capable of judging the impact
appropriately. I've already mentioned how I believe the cost-benefit
ratio for metaphone() is not good - and you did the same for _(). I
would agree on your assessment regarding _() and will ask Gina to
split the deprecation of _ (the constant) from _() (the function)
into separate votes.
Best regards
Tim Düsterhus
If it turns out that we missed something during the proposal - e.g. by issues being filed in the tracker, the deprecation can still be reversed and the functionality not actually changed or removed.
Yes, we will inevitably miss things, and spot them later. A proposal might even account for that by proposing an extra long deprecation period to capture more information.
(If we are going to regularly do that, we probably need to keep a register of what we intend to remove when - when 9.0 comes around, I fully expect a large amount of deprecated features to be removed with no further discussion.)
We have a diverse set of voters, many of them with multi-year experience with PHP, Open Source, different employers or clients in case of agencies. I believe that they will be capable of judging the impact appropriately.
And yes, people might point out things in discussion that the proposer missed, that's all part of the process.
But neither of those things make it OK for someone to put forward a proposal without making some effort to assess the impact.
Any kind of impact analysis performed
by the RFC authors can naturally only account for public code (and their
own code) and an analysis on Packagist packages, as usually done,
completely disregards anything that is not published on Packagist.
I think it's still a valuable first step, given for many proposals it's pretty easy to do. If there are thousands of public uses, we already know that the impact is likely to be high. If there are a handful of uses, all in a particular context, that can be a clue of how people use something.
If there are no public uses, then we have to do a bit more guesswork, e.g. is it something that's likely to be only in end-user code, so not visible in the check?
To me, all of that comes under "impact analysis". I totally agree that just putting a number in the RFC isn't all that valuable, but not even putting that number in is worse.
Regards,
Rowan Tommins
[IMSoP]
I think it's still a valuable first step, given for many proposals
it's pretty easy to do. If there are thousands of public uses, we
already know that the impact is likely to be high. If there are a
handful of uses, all in a particular context, that can be a clue of
how people use something.If there are no public uses, then we have to do a bit more guesswork,
e.g. is it something that's likely to be only in end-user code, so not
visible in the check?To me, all of that comes under "impact analysis". I totally agree
that just putting a number in the RFC isn't all that valuable, but not
even putting that number in is worse.Regards,
Rowan Tommins
[IMSoP]
I agree with Rowan and Juliette here. "Seems no one on Packagist is using this" is a useful datapoint. It is not the complete picture, it is not the only data point, and it is not the last word on the subject, but that doesn't make it un-useful. It is just useful-in-context. If other data points are available, great, include them too.
The alternative is essentially "let's make a one-sided argument for deprecating something, then see who yells at us loudly in December and writes blog posts about how PHP Internals doesn't care about backward compatibility" Which... is bad press we really don't need, yet again.
We can make at least a token effort to minimizing the disruption of deprecations, can't we?
--Larry Garfield
... <snip>....
Tim, I've asked you before to not try to gaslight me, but your current
mail still does.
Your current mail also seems to be largely a response to things I didn't
write, so I have no idea what you are trying to do here, other than just
sprouting rhetoric which everyone has heard before and nobody is
(currently) arguing about.
I just offered to help improve the information available regarding the
proposals without an opinion about the individual proposals and without
voicing an opinion on the principle of deprecations (and for the record:
I have no problem with the principle).
I have no interest in arguing with you about things which I didn't bring
up and which aren't relevant to what I offered.
If the justification for a deprecation is strong enough, no impact
analysis will be able to stop the deprecation from happening. The only
thing the impact analysis can do in that case, is mentally prepare
people for the amount of work ahead and inform the decision whether the
eventual removal of the feature should be in PHP 9.0, or should be
delayed to PHP 10.0.
Being against adding an impact analysis for fear of this influencing the
vote, is kind of how Brexit happened, which really truly isn't the
"golden standard" you seem to think it is....
My offer to help create an impact analysis for the majority of the
current deprecation proposals still stands. Anyone who wants to take me
up on that, is welcome to ping me.
Smile,
Juliette
Hi
Am 2026-06-25 07:16, schrieb Juliette Reinders Folmer:
Tim, I've asked you before to not try to gaslight me, but your current
mail still does.
This is an offensive accusation I struggle with replying to. I don't see
a basis for your repeated personal attacks and the (incorrect) factual
statement that I would try to gaslight you. I can assure you that this
is not the intent of my emails.
I have quoted (excerpts of) your emails verbatim and when I reordered
the excerpts in the second email I have made that transparent. I have
also just double-checked and I don't think that I've cut the excerpts in
a way that omits relevant context or misrepresents your statements. In
any case all emails are preserved in full in the mailing list archives,
allowing anyone to find a public record of what was actually said.
Where I have noted factual errors, I have provided evidence (e.g. quotes
from the RFC, or links to the mailing list archive) to back up my
replies. I take pride in being thorough in my research and anything I
state as a fact being correct. If I indeed made a factual mistake, I
would appreciate it being pointed out.
For the parts of my emails that state my opinion on something, others
are free to disagree. This is why we are having a discussion - and
ultimately a vote. While I certainly hope that my opinion matches that
of the larger community, I don't take offense with anyone disagreeing.
But I expect any factual statements to be correct and backed up by
evidence as appropriate.
Your current mail also seems to be largely a response to things I
didn't write, so I have no idea what you are trying to do here, other
than just sprouting rhetoric which everyone has heard before and nobody
is (currently) arguing about.
Except for one paragraph correcting a factual error (the presence or
absence of a link in the RFC text), the email was solely explaining why
I believe an (unconditional) “Impact Analysis” to be harmful. Given that
you brought this up, I believe the email is very much in response to
something that you wrote.
I would also like to note that the mailing list is a public forum and
the main authoritative source for decisions made by the PHP project.
Emails - at least my emails - are primarily targeted at the PHP
community at large and not to any specific participant in the
discussion. If I feel that it is worth clarifying something, for example
because it was a fairly recent change in policies that folks might have
missed - such as deprecations officially not being considered a breaking
change as of 6 months ago, then I will continue to do so.
If the justification for a deprecation is strong enough, no impact
analysis will be able to stop the deprecation from happening. The only
thing the impact analysis can do in that case, is mentally prepare
people for the amount of work ahead and inform the decision whether the
eventual removal of the feature should be in PHP 9.0, or should be
delayed to PHP 10.0.
As I had mentioned in my reply to Rowan
(https://news-web.php.net/php.internals/131528), I believe the actual
deprecation period will be much more valuable in figuring out the
impact.
Being against adding an impact analysis for fear of this influencing
the vote, is kind of how Brexit happened, which really truly isn't the
"golden standard" you seem to think it is....
As I had mentioned the same reply, it is very easy to come up with any
number one wants to by carefully selecting the method and data source
for the impact analysis or just by accident (not taking account specific
edge cases, of which PHP has many). As the saying goes “do not believe
any statistic that you haven't forged yourself”.
Best regards
Tim Düsterhus
Hello internals,
It is this time of year again where we proposed a list of deprecations to add in PHP 8.6:
The one that stands out to me at first glance is the _() alias for gettext()
I understand the motivation, but removing it is likely to be extremely disruptive, particularly paired with banning it as an identifier so users can't polyfill it.
_() is basically the canonical way to use gettext in every language it's been ported to. The idea is that you can write code and templates with hard-coded English/base-language strings, and wrap them with a small amount of punctuation rather than extra words.
While replacement would be relatively straightforward, affected codebases are likely to have thousands of uses, and the end result would be a reduction in readability.
If we want to go down this route, we need a stronger justification than is given - does it actually cause a problem reserving it only in class-like context, or is the proposal just for neatness?
Rowan Tommins
[IMSoP]
The one that stands out to me at first glance is the
_()alias forgettext()
Sorry for the double reply, but I just checked the comments on the PR linked from the RFC https://github.com/php/php-src/pull/15360
There's a comment from Ilija saying that even the existing deprecation probably isn't needed, further weakening the case.
There's another comment saying that class_alias already shows the deprecation, which 3v4l confirms: https://3v4l.org/QEcZs
Rowan Tommins
[IMSoP]
Hey Gina,
Am 22.06.2026 um 15:13 schrieb Gina P. Banyard internals@gpb.moe:
Hello internals,
It is this time of year again where we proposed a list of deprecations to add in PHP 8.6:
https://wiki.php.net/rfc/deprecations_php_8_6
As a reminder, this list has been compiled over the course of the past year by different people.
And as usual, each deprecation will be voted in isolation.
We still have a bit of time anyone else to propose additional deprecations, and if you have write access feel free to add them directly to the RFC.
Please note that with the new RFC policy rules the RFC must be finalized and in a "frozen" state by the 13th of July at the latest.
Some deprecations should be non-controversial, others a bit more.
If a deprecation is really controversial, it might warrant its own dedicated RFC or be dropped altogether.
Best regards,
Gina P. Banyard
Thanks for compiling this list, I think it's more reasonable and a bit smaller than previous editions. Thanks for that.
Could you please expand on the potential gains on "Deprecate ArrayIterator methods that inherit ArrayObject implementation"? A vague promise of unlocking potential optimizations is not very persuading.
The "_" deprecation feels more like a change for the sake of it (consistency with a removal which has actual incoming functionality), even though there's no actual benefit for it for constants. There's no reason I can imagine why we'd ever need underscores in function call position for another language feature.
I don't think we should deprecate "let". let is universally used for block-scoping in other languages. I don't think PHP should ever have block-scoping inside functions. The corresponding RFC was also declined with 50%+ of the vote. Hence I don't think we should deprecate a name which won't ever be needed.
On "Deprecate changing by-reference return modifier via inheritance" - how exactly is this a LSP violation? If you assign a value without explicit "&" it'll be by-value, regardless of it being reference or not. If you put "&" there, you intentionally want a reference and you will get a warning when trying to use it. There's no magic "this value was a reference, hence this behaves differently now" in PHP, but references trivially decay to values, when used in a by-value context.
This is basically covariance. There's no need to change this, and I assume there was a logic error from the author of that suggestion.
One question, is "Passing objects which are interpreted as arrays" one big vote, or does each item get a vote? For array_walk(_recursive) specifically, I see some value of using it - sometimes data structures are available in object form, saving a cast ... and a cast back, which is not trivial, unless it's a stdclass. Everything else, I do agree with.
Also, why would we deprecate CURLOPT_PROGRESSFUNCTION? According to https://grep.app/search?f.lang=PHP&q=CURLOPT_PROGRESSFUNCTION it's quite widely used in widely used libraries, like guzzle and symfony. And I wouldn't know what it's replacement would be?
Bob
I don't think we should deprecate "let". let is universally used for block-scoping in other languages. I don't think PHP should ever have block-scoping inside functions. The corresponding RFC was also declined with 50%+ of the vote. Hence I don't think we should deprecate a name which won't ever be needed.
The RFC raised was for a unique-to-PHP concept of a special "scope block" using the "let" keyword in a way no other language does. Taking that vote to mean nobody wants block scoping is a huge stretch.
In fact, I think block scoping would be a really useful addition to the language, and hope someone brings forward a proposal which more closely mirrors other Algol-descended languages. For me, it is a prerequisite for auto-capture closures, because it gives a way to unambiguously opt out of capture; but it also has plenty of other uses, just as it does in other languages.
Whether we need to reserve the name to allow that, I will leave to those who know more about the parser.
Rowan Tommins
[IMSoP]
Also, why would we deprecate CURLOPT_PROGRESSFUNCTION? According to https://grep.app/search?f.lang=PHP&q=CURLOPT_PROGRESSFUNCTION it's quite widely used in widely used libraries, like guzzle and symfony. And I wouldn't know what it's replacement would be?
Per the PHP documentation for CURLOPT_PROGRESSFUNCTION 1:
deprecated as of cURL 7.32.0. Use
CURLOPT_XFERINFOFUNCTIONinstead.
The cURL page for this option also states that it is deprecated since 7.32.0. 2
It probably would be good to update the RFC to clarify this.
Sincerely,
Theodore
Per the PHP documentation for
CURLOPT_PROGRESSFUNCTION1:deprecated as of cURL 7.32.0. Use
CURLOPT_XFERINFOFUNCTIONinstead.The cURL page for this option also states that it is deprecated since 7.32.0. 2
It probably would be good to update the RFC to clarify this.
Sincerely,
Theodore
Although libcurl documents CURLOPT_PROGRESSFUNCTION and
CURLOPT_XFERINFOFUNCTION as separate options, they are effectively
the same kind of API from PHP userland’s perspective: both register a
progress callback and use the same return convention to abort a
transfer. Because of that, ext/curl could internally map
CURLOPT_PROGRESSFUNCTION to libcurl’s CURLOPT_XFERINFOFUNCTION
instead of introducing a PHP deprecation for the legacy constant.
The only CURL* PHP constant we deprecated in PHP was
CURLOPT_BINARYTRANSFER^1, which had very small usage then and was
already a no-op option. In PHP 5.6, six constants^4 were removed.
Since this constant is used frequently, and we can rewrite it to use
XFERINFOFUNCTION, we can simplify things for hundreds of library
maintainers. This is especially true because
CURLOPT_PROGRESSFUNCTION and CURLOPT_XFERINFOFUNCTION are
practically identical within PHP.
We already maintain BC for constants deprecated in libcurl, but still
support them in PHP without any deprecation notices:
- CURLINFO_HTTP_CODE^2 (deprecated in libcurl 7.10.8)
- CURLOPT_ENCODING^3 (deprecated in libcurl 7.21.6)
The only Curl constant I'd propose to deprecate would be
CURLE_OBSOLETE^5. It is still declared in PHP but is no longer^6
used in libcurl.
Hi
Also, why would we deprecate CURLOPT_PROGRESSFUNCTION? According to https://grep.app/search?f.lang=PHP&q=CURLOPT_PROGRESSFUNCTION it's quite widely used in widely used libraries, like guzzle and symfony. And I wouldn't know what it's replacement would be?
This looks like an editorial error. The deprecation is only listed in
the table of contents, but has no dedicated section.
The TOC entry was added on January, 26th by devnexen:
https://wiki.php.net/rfc/deprecations_php_8_6?do=diff&rev2%5B0%5D=1767204361&rev2%5B1%5D=1769465262&difftype=sidebyside
Best regards
Tim Düsterhus
On "Deprecate changing by-reference return modifier via inheritance" - how exactly is this a LSP violation? If you assign a value without explicit "&" it'll be by-value, regardless of it being reference or not. If you put "&" there, you intentionally want a reference and you will get a warning when trying to use it. There's no magic "this value was a reference, hence this behaves differently now" in PHP, but references trivially decay to values, when used in a by-value context.
This is basically covariance. There's no need to change this, and I assume there was a logic error from the author of that suggestion.
Hi Bob,
Sorry for the late reply.
Thank you for the correction. Would you suggest I remove that sentence
from the proposal or that I retract the proposal?
Hey Volker,
Am 01.07.2026 um 15:32 schrieb Volker Dusch edorian@php.net:
On "Deprecate changing by-reference return modifier via inheritance" - how exactly is this a LSP violation? If you assign a value without explicit "&" it'll be by-value, regardless of it being reference or not. If you put "&" there, you intentionally want a reference and you will get a warning when trying to use it. There's no magic "this value was a reference, hence this behaves differently now" in PHP, but references trivially decay to values, when used in a by-value context.
This is basically covariance. There's no need to change this, and I assume there was a logic error from the author of that suggestion.Hi Bob,
Sorry for the late reply.
Thank you for the correction. Would you suggest I remove that sentence
from the proposal or that I retract the proposal?
Given that it seems the whole argument in favour of that deprecation is flawed, I would suggest a complete retraction.
Thanks,
Bob
Hello internals,
It is this time of year again where we proposed a list of deprecations to
add in PHP 8.6:https://wiki.php.net/rfc/deprecations_php_8_6
As a reminder, this list has been compiled over the course of the past
year by different people.And as usual, each deprecation will be voted in isolation.
We still have a bit of time anyone else to propose additional
deprecations, and if you have write access feel free to add them directly
to the RFC.
Please note that with the new RFC policy rules the RFC must be finalized
and in a "frozen" state by the 13th of July at the latest.Some deprecations should be non-controversial, others a bit more.
If a deprecation is really controversial, it might warrant its own
dedicated RFC or be dropped altogether.Best regards,
Gina P. Banyard
Hi Gina,
Thank you the RFC.
Overall, everything looks good, however, i object (although not voting) to
deprecating in and out, because their position in generics type
parameter does not require them to be reserved keyword, and there's no
parser ambiguity. inout on the other hand does make sense to deprecate
for potential future inout parameters because there's an ambiguity with
untyped parameters ( in inout $x, is it the type or modifier ).
Cheers,
Seifeddine.
Overall, everything looks good, however, i object (although not voting) to deprecating
inandout, because their position in generics type parameter does not require them to be reserved keyword, and there's no parser ambiguity.inouton the other hand does make sense to deprecate for potential future inout parameters because there's an ambiguity with untyped parameters ( ininout $x, is it the type or modifier ).
If we provide a new set of by-reference parameters I think we would want to have the possibility to do:
- inout for mutable references
- in for immutable references
- out for out parameters (such as the $matches parameter of
preg_match()) where the input value is explicitly discarded
Thus, I would prefer to reserve them in bulk and if it turns out we don't use them we can always remove the restriction.
Best regards,
Gina P. Banyard
Overall, everything looks good, however, i object (although not voting) to deprecating
inandout, because their position in generics type parameter does not require them to be reserved keyword, and there's no parser ambiguity.inouton the other hand does make sense to deprecate for potential future inout parameters because there's an ambiguity with untyped parameters ( ininout $x, is it the type or modifier ).If we provide a new set of by-reference parameters I think we would want to have the possibility to do:
inout for mutable references
in for immutable references
out for out parameters (such as the $matches parameter ofpreg_match()) where the input value is explicitly discardedThus, I would prefer to reserve them in bulk and if it turns out we don't use them we can always remove the restriction.
Best regards,
Gina P. Banyard
The idea is interesting, i would say it's fine to mark them as
reserved then. I assumed the only reason for reserving them was
generics.
Cheers,
Seifeddine.
We still have a bit of time anyone else to propose additional deprecations, and if you have write access feel free to add them directly to the RFC.
Is spl_object_hash() still useful? The string it creates used to be
quite a bit more complex, but eventually it became equivalent to
str_pad(dechex(spl_object_id($obj)), 16, '0', STR_PAD_LEFT) .
'0000000000000000'
I.e., it provides exactly the same content as spl_object_id, but in a
much more obtuse way. For anyone needing that format, the polyfill is
just above.
I suppose there might be changes in the future which will make the hash
more useful (parallelism where objects are created simultaneously and
independently), but then it would be spl_object_id() that has trouble
coping.
Hi, Gina and Internals
I agree deprecate that "Passing object for $vars parameter of
mb_convert_variables()".
However, I have other opinion.(A little bit)
mb_convert_variable and mb_convert_encoding parameter of $encoding is
different behavior of $encoding = "auto".
If we will decide that mb_convert_variable is deprecate and delete, We
need think that behavior.
Anyway, This deprecate of PHP 8.6 is okay to me.
Regards
Yuya
--
Yuya Hamada (tekimen)
We still have a bit of time anyone else to propose additional deprecations, and if you have write access feel free to add them directly to the RFC.
Is
spl_object_hash()still useful? The string it creates used to be
quite a bit more complex, but eventually it became equivalent tostr_pad(dechex(spl_object_id($obj)), 16, '0', STR_PAD_LEFT) .
'0000000000000000'I.e., it provides exactly the same content as spl_object_id, but in a
much more obtuse way. For anyone needing that format, the polyfill is
just above.I suppose there might be changes in the future which will make the hash
more useful (parallelism where objects are created simultaneously and
independently), but then it would bespl_object_id()that has trouble
coping.
If you provide me with text proposal (ideally in DokuWiki format, but markdown is fine) I'm happy to include it in the bulk RFC.
I will however not be writing it myself.
Best regards,
Gina P. Banyard
I would like to add the dechunk filter to the deprecation list, but there is some discussion around how to implement that since it is used internally by the HTTP fopen wrapper.
More information here:
https://github.com/php/php-src/issues/21983
https://github.com/php/php-src/pull/22036
https://github.com/php/php-src/pull/22396/changes
Regards,
Sjoerd Langkemper
Le mar. 23 juin 2026, 09:23, Sjoerd Langkemper sjoerd-php@linuxonly.nl a
écrit :
I would like to add the dechunk filter to the deprecation list, but there
is some discussion around how to implement that since it is used internally
by the HTTP fopen wrapper.More information here:
https://github.com/php/php-src/issues/21983
https://github.com/php/php-src/pull/22036
https://github.com/php/php-src/pull/22396/changesRegards,
Sjoerd Langkemper
Please don't, it's used in userland also.
Cheers
Please don't, it's used in userland also.
Thanks, that is interesting. Do you have more information about this? Where and how is it used? Do you have an example?
Regards,
Sjoerd Langkemper
Le mar. 23 juin 2026, 09:43, Sjoerd Langkemper sjoerd-php@linuxonly.nl a
écrit :
Please don't, it's used in userland also.
Thanks, that is interesting. Do you have more information about this?
Where and how is it used? Do you have an example?Regards,
Sjoerd Langkemper
Sure, here is the pointer:
https://github.com/symfony/symfony/blob/dce1b899ab0c0e4cef9159c083ef535387a8db12/src/Symfony/Component/HttpClient/Response/NativeResponse.php#L188
On Tue, Jun 23, 2026 at 9:49 AM Nicolas Grekas nicolas.grekas+php@gmail.com
wrote:
Le mar. 23 juin 2026, 09:43, Sjoerd Langkemper sjoerd-php@linuxonly.nl
a écrit :Please don't, it's used in userland also.
Thanks, that is interesting. Do you have more information about this?
Where and how is it used? Do you have an example?Regards,
Sjoerd Langkemper
Sure, here is the pointer:
Hi,
Can we deprecate the filter only in php://filter URLs, and not in the
function-based filter API? (like stream_filter_append)
Legitimate cases use the function-based API, while adversarial ones use the
URL-based API. Deprecating in the URL-based API only would address the
issue without breaking legitimate code.
Regards,
Can we deprecate the filter only in php://filter URLs, and not in the function-based filter API?
Yes. this would be a practical solution that prevents misuse of dechunk in attacks, while still providing it for legitimate use. It is technically possible, but it won't be a pretty implementation. It would basically be if (name==dechunk) raise_error() in the code that parses the filter URL. It would break the consistency of the filter API.
Perhaps it would be useful to first deprecate and remove dechunk in php://filter URLs and later deprecate and remove it altogether, but doing only the first without doing the latter would be a real hack.
An alternative could be to offer http_dechunk() as a function, instead of as a filter, to provide an easier upgrade path. A more rigorous approach could be to deprecate the whole of php://filter URLs.
Regards,
Sjoerd Langkemper
On Fri, Jun 26, 2026 at 5:38 PM Sjoerd Langkemper sjoerd-php@linuxonly.nl
wrote:
Can we deprecate the filter only in php://filter URLs, and not in the
function-based filter API?Yes. this would be a practical solution that prevents misuse of dechunk in
attacks, while still providing it for legitimate use. It is technically
possible, but it won't be a pretty implementation. It would basically be
if (name==dechunk) raise_error()in the code that parses the filter URL.
It would break the consistency of the filter API.
Why can't you create a new version of php_stream_filter_create (e.g.
php_stream_filter_create_ex) where you could pass some flags indicating if
it comes from the url (php_stream_apply_filter_list)?Then filter itself
could make such decision (it would probably require changing
php_stream_filter_factory but that might be acceptable).
Kind regards,
Jakub
On Fri, Jun 26, 2026 at 5:38 PM Sjoerd Langkemper sjoerd-php@linuxonly.nl wrote:__
Can we deprecate the [dechunk] filter only in php://filter URLs, and not in the function-based filter API?
Yes. ..., but it won't be a pretty implementation.
Why can't you create a new version of php_stream_filter_create (e.g. php_stream_filter_create_ex) ...
Ok, that might work. If the implementation won't be a problem we should probably determine what we want from a functional perspective: deprecate dechunk only in php://filter URLs, or for every use? Perhaps we should just put it up to a vote in the RFC?
I still think deprecating dechunk completely is a good option. It is not documented. Dechunk decoding is quite easy to implement in user-land PHP, there is no reason it should be provided by PHP itself.
Regards,
Sjoerd
Hello internals,
It is this time of year again where we proposed a list of deprecations to
add in PHP 8.6:https://wiki.php.net/rfc/deprecations_php_8_6
As a reminder, this list has been compiled over the course of the past
year by different people.And as usual, each deprecation will be voted in isolation.
We still have a bit of time anyone else to propose additional
deprecations, and if you have write access feel free to add them directly
to the RFC.
Please note that with the new RFC policy rules the RFC must be finalized
and in a "frozen" state by the 13th of July at the latest.Some deprecations should be non-controversial, others a bit more.
If a deprecation is really controversial, it might warrant its own
dedicated RFC or be dropped altogether.Best regards,
Gina P. Banyard
Thanks for managing this - amazing how fast time flies.
I've added a few new entries, including the spl_object_hash() deprecation
suggested by Morgan.
-Daniel
I've added a few new entries, including the
spl_object_hash()
deprecation suggested by Morgan.-Daniel
Oh, thank you for that; I was just about to write that up myself.
Yup: pretty much every use I've seen of spl_object_hash (which I admit
was only a small sample of lots of uses) is as an array key, where an
integer would work just as well (and SplObjectStorage was a poor fit
because it wasn't an array). For every other location I couldn't see
what it achieved that a plain int couldn't and the places where its
format as "32 hex digits" was relied on appeared to be because "that's
the format spl_object_hash() outputs".
The change from the more complex hash came in 8.1 without even a
changelog entry. The only relevant discussion I could find was at
It is this time of year again where we proposed a list of deprecations to add in PHP 8.6:
Regarding deprecating non-canonical type names:
It's a different category of problem (and a lot more difficult than just
swapping out an alias), but gettype() returns "double" and "integer" for
floats and ints (and "boolean" for bools).
A change would require users to write a translator wrapper around
gettype that continues to output the old names and call that until
they're able to replace all their uses of them:
$t = gettype($v);
return $t === 'integer' ? 'int' : ($t === 'double' ? 'float' : $t);
Hi
Am 2026-06-25 00:58, schrieb Morgan:
It's a different category of problem (and a lot more difficult than
just swapping out an alias), butgettype()returns "double" and
"integer" for floats and ints (and "boolean" for bools).A change would require users to write a translator wrapper around
gettype that continues to output the old names and call that until
they're able to replace all their uses of them:$t = gettype($v);
return $t === 'integer' ? 'int' : ($t === 'double' ? 'float' : $t);
There already is get_debug_type() as a replacement that is documented
to:
[differ] from
gettype()in that it returns type names that are more
consistent with actual usage, rather than those present for historical
reasons
And the documentation page for gettype() also mentions that:
For type checking, use is_* functions.
meaning that gettype() is not supposed to be used for actual type
checking (e.g. with a switch(gettype($var))). If it's not intended
for this use, then “human readable output” remains as a possible use
case, which is already better solved by get_debug_type() which outputs
the canonical names and also class names instead of just object.
Given the replacement already being available since PHP 8.0 (and
polyfillable, see
https://github.com/symfony/polyfill/blob/a9a8687879dfea232e90d38ba949f65c3ece4456/src/Php80/Php80.php#L28-L58),
the correct action would be not to adjust the function any more and to
deprecate it with a reference to get_debug_type().
Best regards
Tim Düsterhus
Hello internals,
It is this time of year again where we proposed a list of deprecations to add in PHP 8.6:
I think I am not in favour of the following:
- Deprecate returning from a finally block
If somebody uses a return in a finally block, than this could just
as well be intentional.
- Deprecate the
_()function alias forgettext()
AFAIK, this is heavily used as it was (is) the original (C) way of using
it. I don't see an impact analysis for this one, and unless it's having
no impact, I don't think we should remove it.
- Deprecate Metaphone Function
I don't see why this is useful. It causes no harm AFAICT.
- Deprecate dechunk filter
I believe that if you deprecate this as a filter, then there should be a
userland function that does the same thing (in a sane way).
cheers,
Derick
--
https://derickrethans.nl | https://xdebug.org | https://xdebug.cloud
Author of Xdebug. Like it? Consider supporting me: https://xdebug.org/support
mastodon: @derickr@phpc.social @xdebug@phpc.social
I think I am not in favour of the following:
- Deprecate returning from a finally block
If somebody uses a
returnin afinallyblock, than this could just
as well be intentional.
Hi Derick,
Yes, as you have probably already seen in the RFC, 9 out of the 12
instances across the top ~5000 packages
were intentional, but the proposal is not really aimed at intent.
Deprecating it takes no capability away from anyone doing this on purpose,
since the same result can still
be expressed in other ways, sometimes by just moving the return out of
the finally, but at the same time it protects
the people who do not pay attention to it (which could even be some of
those deliberately using it today, once they add a return or a throw in
the try later and its result silently disappears).
I also want to bring up again that even though I am suggesting a
deprecation, I am still genuinely interested to know whether someone
feels a warning, or even a notice, would fit better, so that if the
deprecation gets voted down we would at least have an impression of where
people stand.
The main point here is that silently discarding the in-flight state,
without giving a single hint about it, is a footgun, and that silent part
is really the concern here.
A return in finally quietly discarding an in-flight return value, and
more importantly an in-flight exception, so a thrown error can just
disappear with nothing reported anywhere.
Regards,
Osama
Hello Internals,
I have updated the RFC to include a deprecation proposal for the
list() construct.
ref: https://wiki.php.net/rfc/deprecations_php_8_6#deprecate_the_list_construct
Cheers,
Seifeddine.
Hello Internals,
I have updated the RFC to include a deprecation proposal for the
list()construct.ref: https://wiki.php.net/rfc/deprecations_php_8_6#deprecate_the_list_construct
I don't think it makes sense to deprecate list() if we're not
deprecating array() - they're exact counterparts, and both replaced by
the [] syntax. Indeed, [] as a replacement for array() dates to PHP 5.4,
but as a replacement for list() was only added in PHP 7.1.
I agree that it's not immediately clear that array() constructs and
list() extracts, but I think your example is unfair, because both
array($a, $b) and list("a" => $a, "b" => $b) are also valid.
A possible justification would be that one is more common than the
other, but right now there's no discussion or analysis of that. (Which
as I've said elsewhere in this thread will be an automatic "No" vote
from me if it's still the case at voting time.)
--
Rowan Tommins
[IMSoP]
On Mon, 29 Jun 2026 at 18:52, Rowan Tommins [IMSoP]
imsop.php@rwec.co.uk wrote:
Hello Internals,
I have updated the RFC to include a deprecation proposal for the
list()construct.ref: https://wiki.php.net/rfc/deprecations_php_8_6#deprecate_the_list_construct
I don't think it makes sense to deprecate list() if we're not
deprecating array() - they're exact counterparts, and both replaced by
the [] syntax. Indeed, [] as a replacement for array() dates to PHP 5.4,
but as a replacement for list() was only added in PHP 7.1.
I'm actually in favor of deprecating array() too, and I raised this
on the #php-internals Discord channel. The motivation there is weaker
though: unlike list, deprecating array() does not free up a
keyword, since array remains a type. The grammar simplification and
having fewer things for newcomers to learn still apply, and IMO are
good reasons on their own. If there's appetite for it, I'm happy to
add it to the RFC.
I agree that it's not immediately clear that array() constructs and
list() extracts, but I think your example is unfair, because both
array($a, $b) and list("a" => $a, "b" => $b) are also valid.
The example isn't claiming the two forms can't be written the other
way around. The point is purely about how they read: set next to
array("a" => $a, "b" => $b), the construct list($a, $b) looks like
it builds some kind of list value, a sibling of array(), when in
fact it constructs nothing and instead pulls values out of an existing
array.
And list("a" => $a, "b" => $b) actually reinforces the case. In PHP
you can't tell a construct from a function call just by looking at it,
so someone reading that for the first time has no way to understand
why a "funtcion" called list is being called in a write context with
key/value pairs. The name actively misleads.
A possible justification would be that one is more common than the
other, but right now there's no discussion or analysis of that. (Which
as I've said elsewhere in this thread will be an automatic "No" vote
from me if it's still the case at voting time.)
I don't think relative frequency is the core justification here, so
I'd rather not anchor the RFC on usage numbers. The case rests on the
keyword being freed for a potential future list type, grammar
simplification, and the readability point above, regardless of which
form is more common.
Cheers,
Seifeddine.
Hi
Am 2026-06-29 20:37, schrieb Seifeddine Gmati:
I'm actually in favor of deprecating
array()too, and I raised this
on the #php-internals Discord channel. The motivation there is weaker
though: unlikelist, deprecatingarray()does not free up a
keyword, sincearrayremains a type. The grammar simplification and
having fewer things for newcomers to learn still apply, and IMO are
good reasons on their own. If there's appetite for it, I'm happy to
add it to the RFC.
FWIW: I still have a rough draft to make array() (or rather: all
non-object types) proper functions that effectively would “stand in” as
cast operators. For array() specifically this would allow a
named-argument style of defining arrays with “unquoted keys”:
array(foo: 1, bar: 2).
Best regards
Tim Düsterhus
Hi
Am 2026-06-29 20:37, schrieb Seifeddine Gmati:
I'm actually in favor of deprecating
array()too, and I raised this
on the #php-internals Discord channel. The motivation there is weaker
though: unlikelist, deprecatingarray()does not free up a
keyword, sincearrayremains a type. The grammar simplification and
having fewer things for newcomers to learn still apply, and IMO are
good reasons on their own. If there's appetite for it, I'm happy to
add it to the RFC.
Hi Tim,
FWIW: I still have a rough draft to make
array()(or rather: all
non-object types) proper functions that effectively would “stand in” as
cast operators. Forarray()specifically this would allow a
named-argument style of defining arrays with “unquoted keys”:
array(foo: 1, bar: 2).
This would require deprecating array() first anyway, no? Otherwise,
dealing with it during parsing would be hacky (looking ahead at
array(foo for : or => or , or ) to decide if it's an array
or a function call, possible, but hacky think ).
On Mon, Jun 29, 2026 at 2:38 PM Seifeddine Gmati azjezz@carthage.software
wrote:
On Mon, 29 Jun 2026 at 18:52, Rowan Tommins [IMSoP]
imsop.php@rwec.co.uk wrote:Hello Internals,
I have updated the RFC to include a deprecation proposal for the
list()construct.ref:
https://wiki.php.net/rfc/deprecations_php_8_6#deprecate_the_list_constructI don't think it makes sense to deprecate list() if we're not
deprecating array() - they're exact counterparts, and both replaced by
the [] syntax. Indeed, [] as a replacement for array() dates to PHP 5.4,
but as a replacement for list() was only added in PHP 7.1.I'm actually in favor of deprecating
array()too, and I raised this
on the #php-internals Discord channel.
Are you crazy? That would invalidate at least three quarters of the
WordPress core code base and almost all of it's plugins, not to mention
THOUSANDS of tutorials on stack overflow. And whether you like it or not
about 40-60% of PHP sites use WordPress, depending on who you ask.
That would almost certainly cause that community to either refuse to
upgrade, leading to the problem the Python community faced with 2 & 3, or
cause them to fork PHP.
To be clear, I find it ugly as Hell too, and I'd love to see the end of
the @ error suppression operator, but there are things that simply cannot
be done.
On Mon, Jun 29, 2026 at 2:38 PM Seifeddine Gmati azjezz@carthage.software
wrote:On Mon, 29 Jun 2026 at 18:52, Rowan Tommins [IMSoP]
imsop.php@rwec.co.uk wrote:Hello Internals,
I have updated the RFC to include a deprecation proposal for the
list()construct.ref:
https://wiki.php.net/rfc/deprecations_php_8_6#deprecate_the_list_constructI don't think it makes sense to deprecate list() if we're not
deprecating array() - they're exact counterparts, and both replaced by
the [] syntax. Indeed, [] as a replacement for array() dates to PHP 5.4,
but as a replacement for list() was only added in PHP 7.1.I'm actually in favor of deprecating
array()too, and I raised this
on the #php-internals Discord channel.Are you crazy? That would invalidate at least three quarters of the
WordPress core code base and almost all of it's plugins, not to mention
THOUSANDS of tutorials on stack overflow. And whether you like it or not
about 40-60% of PHP sites use WordPress, depending on who you ask.That would almost certainly cause that community to either refuse to
upgrade, leading to the problem the Python community faced with 2 & 3, or
cause them to fork PHP.To be clear, I find it ugly as Hell too, and I'd love to see the end of
the @ error suppression operator, but there are things that simply cannot
be done.
That's a very strong stance. It would invalidate a lot of old code but it's
a very simple change that can be done automatically. Most of the up-to-date
code already switched to the new syntax so there is a trend in community's
code towards the new style. Deprecating array() would only speed it up.
We're not talking here about deprecating arrays, just the old array()
construct.
Deprecating list() is a little more challenging as not enough time has
passed for old codebases to migrate to the new syntax but it also wouldn't
be world shattering as the change is very simple.
The benefit of this would be that we would be modernizing the language and
removing two ways of doing the identical thing, which would be a very good
thing for new users. No more confusion and messy code.
Compared to the error suppression operator or pass-by-ref, this is a very
simple and unproblematic deprecation. We might want to delay the removal
until PHP 10 but I see no reason to hold back on deprecation.
On Mon, 29 Jun 2026 at 18:52, Rowan Tommins [IMSoP]
imsop.php@rwec.co.uk wrote:Hello Internals,
I have updated the RFC to include a deprecation proposal for the
list()construct.ref: https://wiki.php.net/rfc/deprecations_php_8_6#deprecate_the_list_construct
I don't think it makes sense to deprecate list() if we're not
deprecating array() - they're exact counterparts, and both replaced by
the [] syntax. Indeed, [] as a replacement for array() dates to PHP 5.4,
but as a replacement for list() was only added in PHP 7.1.I'm actually in favor of deprecating
array()too, and I raised this
on the #php-internals Discord channel.
Hi Michael,
Are you crazy?
Yes.
That would invalidate at least three quarters of the WordPress core code base and almost all of it's plugins, not to mention THOUSANDS of tutorials on stack overflow. And whether you like it or not about 40-60% of PHP sites use WordPress, depending on who you ask.
The migration is running a single command: ast-grep -p 'array($$$ARGS)' -r '[$$$ARGS]' --lang php -U
I dislike the idea that the langauge should not progress because
people genuinely don't want to take 2 minutes to upgrade their
codebase.
I don't think the WordPress team would have trouble replacing
array() with [] given that the minimum requirement for WordPress
is PHP 8.3. Older WordPress installations don't have to upgrade
because if they didn't bother upgrading WordPress, i doubt they will
bother upgrading PHP :)
That would almost certainly cause that community to either refuse to upgrade, leading to the problem the Python community faced with 2 & 3, or cause them to fork PHP.
I don't think a single syntax change like array($x) to [$x] would
cause the Python 2 to Python 3 chaos here, given that the "modern"
syntax already works in older PHP versions.
Cheers,
Seifeddine.
On Mon, 29 Jun 2026 at 18:52, Rowan Tommins [IMSoP]
imsop.php@rwec.co.uk wrote:Hello Internals,
I have updated the RFC to include a deprecation proposal for the
list()construct.ref: https://wiki.php.net/rfc/deprecations_php_8_6#deprecate_the_list_construct
I don't think it makes sense to deprecate list() if we're not
deprecating array() - they're exact counterparts, and both replaced by
the [] syntax. Indeed, [] as a replacement for array() dates to PHP 5.4,
but as a replacement for list() was only added in PHP 7.1.
I'm actually in favor of deprecatingarray()too, and I raised this
on the #php-internals Discord channel.
Hi all,
That would invalidate at least three quarters of the WordPress core code base and almost all of it's plugins, not to mention THOUSANDS of tutorials on stack overflow. And whether you like it or not about 40-60% of PHP sites use WordPress, depending on who you ask.
The migration is running a single command:ast-grep -p 'array($$$ARGS)' -r '[$$$ARGS]' --lang php -UI don't think the WordPress team would have trouble replacing
array()with[]given that the minimum requirement for WordPress
is PHP 8.3. Older WordPress installations don't have to upgrade
because if they didn't bother upgrading WordPress, i doubt they will
bother upgrading PHP :)
Sorry to butt in, but a) the minimum PHP for WP is PHP 7.4 at the moment
and b) the arguments for WordPress to stick with the old array() and
list() has nothing to do with them "not bothering to upgrade". They
are fully aware of the ease of upgrading and the (PHPCS) tooling to do
so is available and has been for the longest time.
Reasons for WordPress to not switch to short array/list syntax are
far more along the lines of:
- Code accessibility - it is much quicker to determine whether something
is a list or an array when visually scanning code when the keywords are
being used. - Searchability of the code base - searching for
array(orlist(
will yield useful results, searching for[will yield a hundred times
more results, most of which are not what one is looking for (array
access, assignments etc).
Other than that, they've brought up practical reasons for not switching
to the new syntax in the past. Think along the lines of there being
thousands of (often long-standing) open patches, which would need to be
updated before they can be merged. The extra burden this would put on
the limited amount of committers is another reason.
So, please, if you use WP in this discussion to argue either side,
please inform yourself before doing so.
Personally, I believe both the code accessibility as well as the
searchability arguments do have some value, so it might be a good idea
for the discussion to focus more on those.
Smile,
Juliette
On Wed, Jul 1, 2026 at 4:52 PM Juliette Reinders Folmer <
php-internals_nospam@adviesenzo.nl> wrote:
Hello Internals,
I have updated the RFC to include a deprecation proposal for the
list()construct.ref: https://wiki.php.net/rfc/deprecations_php_8_6#deprecate_the_list_construct
I don't think it makes sense to deprecate list() if we're not
deprecating array() - they're exact counterparts, and both replaced by
the [] syntax. Indeed, [] as a replacement for array() dates to PHP 5.4,
but as a replacement for list() was only added in PHP 7.1.I'm actually in favor of deprecating
array()too, and I raised this
on the #php-internals Discord channel.Hi all,
That would invalidate at least three quarters of the WordPress core code base and almost all of it's plugins, not to mention THOUSANDS of tutorials on stack overflow. And whether you like it or not about 40-60% of PHP sites use WordPress, depending on who you ask.
The migration is running a single command:
ast-grep -p 'array($$$ARGS)' -r '[$$$ARGS]' --lang php -UI don't think the WordPress team would have trouble replacing
array()with[]given that the minimum requirement for WordPress
is PHP 8.3. Older WordPress installations don't have to upgrade
because if they didn't bother upgrading WordPress, i doubt they will
bother upgrading PHP :)Sorry to butt in, but a) the minimum PHP for WP is PHP 7.4 at the moment
and b) the arguments for WordPress to stick with the oldarray()and
list()has nothing to do with them "not bothering to upgrade". They are
fully aware of the ease of upgrading and the (PHPCS) tooling to do so is
available and has been for the longest time.Reasons for WordPress to not switch to short array/list syntax are far
more along the lines of:
- Code accessibility - it is much quicker to determine whether something
is a list or an array when visually scanning code when the keywords are
being used.- Searchability of the code base - searching for
array(orlist(will
yield useful results, searching for[will yield a hundred times more
results, most of which are not what one is looking for (array access,
assignments etc).Other than that, they've brought up practical reasons for not switching to
the new syntax in the past. Think along the lines of there being thousands
of (often long-standing) open patches, which would need to be updated
before they can be merged. The extra burden this would put on the limited
amount of committers is another reason.So, please, if you use WP in this discussion to argue either side, please
inform yourself before doing so.Personally, I believe both the code accessibility as well as the
searchability arguments do have some value, so it might be a good idea for
the discussion to focus more on those.Smile,
Juliette
I didn't delve into the reasons WordPress is that way because I don't know
them. I assumed they had them - no project that size that has ran that long
does anything without much deliberation.
It's not just the core team that has to change, it's all the plugins. Most
sites have considerable custom theme code - the one I'm responsible for
does. I don't use array() but there are corners I haven't touched yet that
might because I inherited it. I could run that query, but I wouldn't be
comfortable doing it because there are no tests for that old code. I do
have tests, but most all of them step over the PHP backend and focus on the
output of the twig templates because that's easier to test in the first
place. I do have a sanity test that iterates over 150 pages of the site
looking for PHP and JavaScript errors in the output or console, but that's
a bare minimum.
A lot of WordPress sites are ran by small outfits with no coder on staff at
all and they delegate the server operation to a provider. Those providers
often have hundreds, some thousands of sites. They don't have the staff to
update every bloody one of them.
This can be done. I strongly, strongly advise caution on it. Honestly, this
is what I mean by saying perhaps it's time to have a strict mode language
that is code first instead of template first among other features that
would be nice to do but have severe BC implications.
It's not just the core team that has to change, it's all the plugins. Most sites have considerable custom theme code - the one I'm responsible for does.
Plugins can also upgrade just as easily, because the alternative
already works for all supported PHP versions.
I could run that query, but I wouldn't be comfortable doing it because there are no tests for that old code. I do have tests, but most all of them step over the PHP backend and focus on the output of the twig templates because that's easier to test in the first place. I do have a sanity test that iterates over 150 pages of the site looking for PHP and JavaScript errors in the output or console, but that's a bare minimum.
This part I can reassure you on directly: you don't need tests to make
this specific change safely. array($a, $b), list($a, $b), and
[$a, $b] compile to byte-identical opcodes. it's a guaranteed
language equivalence, not a behavioural one that could differ at
runtime, see https://3v4l.org/rlQa6/vld#v
So a mechanical array() -> [] rewrite can't change what your code
does, tests or no tests. That's a very different risk profile from a
normal untested refactor.
A lot of WordPress sites are ran by small outfits with no coder on staff at all and they delegate the server operation to a provider.
I don't think this is a language-design concern. A deprecation doesn't
break anything on upgrade day; it emits a notice, and removal is a
full major version away. An unmaintained site isn't chasing new PHP
majors in the first place, so the scenario where it lands on a version
that has removed list()/array() without anyone touching the code
essentially doesn't arise on its own. And where it does arise, it's
because a managed provider moved the PHP version under software that
doesn't support it. Verifying that the code runs on the target version
is the provider's responsibility. That's true for every deprecation
and removal PHP has ever shipped, and it isn't a reason to hold the
language's grammar fixed.
On Wed, Jul 1, 2026 at 5:53 PM Seifeddine Gmati azjezz@carthage.software
wrote:
It's not just the core team that has to change, it's all the plugins.
Most sites have considerable custom theme code - the one I'm responsible
for does.Plugins can also upgrade just as easily, because the alternative
already works for all supported PHP versions.I could run that query, but I wouldn't be comfortable doing it because
there are no tests for that old code. I do have tests, but most all of them
step over the PHP backend and focus on the output of the twig templates
because that's easier to test in the first place. I do have a sanity test
that iterates over 150 pages of the site looking for PHP and JavaScript
errors in the output or console, but that's a bare minimum.This part I can reassure you on directly: you don't need tests to make
this specific change safely.
I'm stopping right there. I've watched people make proclamations like that,
execute the code, crash servers costing thousands of dollars in downtime
and promptly get fired.
You've never been in a position of authority to make a pragmatic decision.
No one with that burden would type what you've typed. Pragmatic decisions
often suck, but they are made for sound reasons. Step out of your ivory
tower sometime and maybe you'll learn that.
I've stated my reasoning. I don't need to repeat it to deaf ears.
I'm stopping right there. I've watched people make proclamations like that, execute the code, crash servers costing thousands of dollars in downtime and promptly get fired.
It isn't a proclamation, it's checkable, and I linked the check.
list($a, $b), array($a, $b), and [$a, $b] compile to identical
opcodes: https://3v4l.org/rlQa6/vld#v
The people who crashed servers weren't undone by verifiable
equivalences like this one; they ran transformations they hadn't
verified. This is the opposite: two forms the compiler cannot
distinguish. If you think that's wrong, open the link and show me
where the opcodes differ.
And if the objection is specifically ast-grep, fair enough, it's a
general-purpose tool. But the migration doesn't depend on it. Mago
linter already implements exactly this rewrite, on a PHP-specific
parser, you can read the whole thing, it's about thirty lines:
https://github.com/carthage-software/mago/blob/072933fda228a4c52d3858fd4b1797624aa31ac9/crates/linter/src/rule/consistency/array_style.rs#L101-L133
Mago is a full linter with over a hundred rules. If you'd rather have
something with zero config and zero surface area, I'll build you a
single-purpose binary that does only this one transformation. It's at
most 30 minutes of work. The point is that the rewrite is so
mechanically simple that the tooling is almost incidental.
You've never been in a position of authority to make a pragmatic decision. No one with that burden would type what you've typed.
You don't know what I do, so I'll set the personal framing aside and
give you the relevant part: I build static analyzers, linters,
compilers, and rewrite tooling for a living.
I've written a compiler that migrated a multi-million-line codebase
from one language to another, automatically, overnight. Swapping one
AST node for another that is literally equivalent to the compiler is
not a feat of engineering courage. That's the basis for what I said.
Technical claims aren't settled by operational burden.
I've stated my reasoning. I don't need to repeat it to deaf ears.
Sure. I disagreed on the merits and said why.
Cheers,
Seifeddine
On Wed, Jul 1, 2026 at 6:23 PM Seifeddine Gmati azjezz@carthage.software
wrote:
I'm stopping right there. I've watched people make proclamations like
that, execute the code, crash servers costing thousands of dollars in
downtime and promptly get fired.It isn't a proclamation, it's checkable, and I linked the check.
list($a, $b),array($a, $b), and[$a, $b]compile to identical
opcodes: https://3v4l.org/rlQa6/vld#vThe people who crashed servers weren't undone by verifiable
equivalences like this one; they ran transformations they hadn't
verified. This is the opposite: two forms the compiler cannot
distinguish. If you think that's wrong, open the link and show me
where the opcodes differ.And if the objection is specifically
ast-grep, fair enough, it's a
general-purpose tool. But the migration doesn't depend on it. Mago
linter already implements exactly this rewrite, on a PHP-specific
parser, you can read the whole thing, it's about thirty lines:Mago is a full linter with over a hundred rules. If you'd rather have
something with zero config and zero surface area, I'll build you a
single-purpose binary that does only this one transformation. It's at
most 30 minutes of work. The point is that the rewrite is so
mechanically simple that the tooling is almost incidental.You've never been in a position of authority to make a pragmatic
decision. No one with that burden would type what you've typed.You don't know what I do, so I'll set the personal framing aside and
give you the relevant part: I build static analyzers, linters,
compilers, and rewrite tooling for a living.
So my ivory tower remark is on point.
Most of the users of WordPress, myself included, do not have that level of
skill. And while I'm doing better than most of my peers I'm still much
closer to them than you and understand where they're coming from. They are,
as a rule, adverse to change and prefer to use what they know works. And
then there's the end users who can't code and install piles and piles of
plugins to get their sites to work. Many of those plugins are abandon-ware
and haven't seen updates in years. If they suddenly stop working there's
going to be a lot of people confused and upset, and for what? The code
reads prettier to you.
More likely than not you are right about the ease of changing this over
using a grep. That's not the problem. The problem is the disdain and
indifference you've shown to people who's skills aren't up to par with
yours. Being a better coder doesn't make you a better person.
So my ivory tower remark is on point.
I find this hard to answer, because one message ago the objection was
that I'd never been in a position to make a pragmatic decision, and
now it's that I have too much expertise to relate to ordinary users.
Both can't be the problem. I only mentioned what I do because you'd
told me, flatly, that I hadn't done it.
The problem is the disdain and indifference you've shown to people who's skills aren't up to par with yours.
I don't hold that, and nothing I argued requires it. Wanting fewer
people caught out by a change is a fair instinct to have, I don't
think you're wrong to care about it. My point was narrower and not
about anyone's skill: the existence of unmaintained software shouldn't
permanently freeze the language. That's a claim about deprecation
policy, not about the people running those sites.
And it matters that a deprecation breaks nothing on upgrade day. It
emits a notice; removal is a full major version away, years out. A
site nobody maintains also isn't chasing new PHP majors, the two go
together. For an abandoned plugin to suddenly stop working, someone
must actively move it to a major version that removed the feature.
Does WordPress even allow upgrading to a PHP version its plugins don't
support? I don't know. If a managed host does that somehow, without
checking compatibility, the failure isn't in the language.
for what? The code reads prettier to you.
That isn't the motivation. If that were, I'd let a formatter handle it.
The reasons are a simpler grammar, freeing the list keyword for a
possible future list type, and removing a redundant construct
newcomers otherwise have to learn for no reason. You can think those
aren't worth the churn; that's a legitimate disagreement. "its
prettier" isn't what's actually being proposed.
And this is what I keep coming back to: why this deprecation in
particular? The same RFC deprecates several other things, and at least
one of them is genuinely harder to migrate than list(), which makes
the focus on list() odd.
Take the deprecation of _() in favour of gettext() (which is
reasonable, given _ is being reserved for another purpose). That
looks like a trivial find-and-replace, but it isn't safe. PHP resolves
an unqualified function call by checking the current namespace first
and only then falling back to global. So inside namespace App;, a
bare _(...) binds to App\_ if that function exists, and only
otherwise to the global _. Blindly rewriting _ to gettext can
therefore change which function actually runs, if there's an
App\gettext, the rewritten call now resolves to it instead of the
global one.
A purely syntactic tool like ast-grep cannot catch that, because it's
a whole-program resolution fact, not a textual one. You'd need a
type-aware linter that indexes the entire codebase to do it safely.
list() -> [] has none of that. The compiler emits identical
opcodes (see the 3v4l link above). So it's the one case where a
one-line ast-grep rewrite is provably correct. If anything, list()
is the safest migration in the entire RFC, and the harder ones (the
ones that can actually cause issues) aren't the ones drawing the
objection.
I also doubt the abandoned plugins you're picturing are pristine on
every other deprecation in the RFC and happen to trip only on list(.
If "some plugins are unmaintained" blocks this, it blocks all of it,
and PHP should never deprecate anything, and we should freeze the
language as it is now.
Being a better coder doesn't make you a better person.
Where exactly did I give you the impression that I think I'm a better
person? We are having a technical discussion; you are turning it
personal.
Cheers,
Seifeddine
And this is what I keep coming back to: why this deprecation in
particular? The same RFC deprecates several other things, and at least
one of them is genuinely harder to migrate thanlist(), which makes
the focus onlist()odd.
Because array construction and destructuring are much more widely used than most anything else in the deprecations RFC, be it with “modern” or “legacy” syntax. And given core functions like var_export still use the long “legacy” syntax for arrays, it seems like that alone should block a deprecation proposal until someone finally lands a solution to let it use the other syntax.
given core functions like var_export still use the long “legacy” syntax for arrays
The proposal is to deprecate list(), not array().
Sorry to butt in, but a) the minimum PHP for WP is PHP 7.4
I got the 8.3 number from their official website:
https://wordpress.org/about/requirements/ , even if the requirement is
7.1, the [] syntax works fine there. So, this is not a problem.
- Code accessibility - it is much quicker to determine whether something is a list or an array when visually scanning code when the keywords are being used.
list( does not mean a "list", PHP has no such type right now. It
means you are destructuring an array, list("foo" => $bar) is valid.
so "quicker to determine" is false, you can swap every list( usage
with array( and the behavior will be exactly the same.
- Searchability of the code base - searching for
array(orlist(will yield useful results, searching for[will yield a hundred times more results, most of which are not what one is looking for (array access, assignments etc).
Yes, it would also yield $typed->array(, $posts->list(, and more.
If you are looking for a specific syntax, you should use AST based
search tools, not grep text. In which case, you can easily grep for
array construction using [] over writes/reads using array-access
syntax. This has never been a problem in every other language that
uses [] syntax.
Other than that, they've brought up practical reasons for not switching to the new syntax in the past. Think along the lines of there being thousands of (often long-standing) open patches, which would need to be updated before they can be merged. The extra burden this would put on the limited amount of committers is another reason.
Again, i don't think the language should be held down because of a
single project when the migration path is available, and works for all
supported versions of that project, whether it's WordPress or any
other.
Cheers,
Seifeddine.
Sorry to butt in, but a) the minimum PHP for WP is PHP 7.4
I got the 8.3 number from their official website:
https://wordpress.org/about/requirements/ , even if the requirement is
7.1, the[]syntax works fine there. So, this is not a problem.
Please look again on the same page. The recommended version may be PHP
8.3, the minimum version ("Running on legacy versions?") is PHP 7.4 and
only since recently.
- Code accessibility - it is much quicker to determine whether something is a list or an array when visually scanning code when the keywords are being used.
list(does not mean a "list", PHP has no such type right now. It
means you are destructuring an array,list("foo" => $bar)is valid.
so "quicker to determine" is false, you can swap everylist(usage
witharray(and the behavior will be exactly the same.
That's just plain untrue. The one is used for creating an array, the
other for destructuring an array.
Swapping list( usages with array( will in most cases result in a
parse error. Example: https://3v4l.org/O7O4q#veol
- Searchability of the code base - searching for
array(orlist(will yield useful results, searching for[will yield a hundred times more results, most of which are not what one is looking for (array access, assignments etc).
Yes, it would also yield$typed->array(,$posts->list(, and more.
If you are looking for a specific syntax, you should use AST based
search tools, not grep text. In which case, you can easily grep for
array construction using[]over writes/reads using array-access
syntax. This has never been a problem in every other language that
uses[]syntax.
Agreed, but that doesn't take anything away from the fact that WP uses
it as an argument against switching to the short syntax.
Smile,
Juliette
Please look again on the same page. The recommended version may be PHP 8.3, the minimum version ("Running on legacy versions?") is PHP 7.4 and only since recently.
8.3 is listed as the version up top, and 7.4 appears under "Running on
legacy versions?", which the page itself flags as EOL and recommends
upgrading away from. I'm not sure an End-Of-Life floor is the number
we should be designing around, but it doesn't matter either way: []
destructuring has worked since PHP 7.1, so it's supported on every
version WP runs on, 7.4 and 8.3 alike. The short syntax isn't
version-gated for them under any reading of that page.
That's just plain untrue. The one is used for creating an array, the other for destructuring an array.
You're correct, and I mistyped there. But that's a rewrite detail, not
the point I was making. My point was about the name. The
accessibility argument was that the keyword lets you tell "a list or
an array" apart at a glance, and that's what i disagree on, because
PHP has no list. list() doesn't construct anything; it destructures
an array. The keyword names a type that doesn't exist, and it accepts
keys (list("foo" => $bar) = $arr), which a genuine "list" wouldn't.
So "the keyword tells you what it is" is exactly backwards here: the
keyword tells you something false.
Agreed, but that doesn't take anything away from the fact that WP uses it as an argument against switching to the short syntax.
I haven't seen anyone from the WP team make that argument in this
thread, so I'd be cautious about treating it as WP's settled position
rather than a reason attributed to them.
And more importantly: even if it is their position, a single project's
style preference shouldn't steer language design. Coding styles adapt
to what the language offers at the version they target; that's the
normal direction of the relationship. A project choosing to keep
array()/list() in their own codebase is entirely their call, and
deprecating the long forms doesn't force them to restyle historical
code on any particular timeline. But "we'd rather keep writing it the
old way" isn't a reason for the language to carry a redundant
construct indefinitely.
My point was about the name. The
accessibility argument was that the keyword lets you tell "a list or
an array" apart at a glance, and that's what i disagree on, because
PHP has no list.list()doesn't construct anything; it destructures
an array. The keyword names a type that doesn't exist, and it accepts
keys (list("foo" => $bar) = $arr), which a genuine "list" wouldn't.
So "the keyword tells you what it is" is exactly backwards here: the
keyword tells you something false.
The fact that the list() name may be confusing is IMO not a valid
argument. That keyword has been in use for that particular purpose since
a very long time in PHP - and even longer in other languages.
Agreed, but that doesn't take anything away from the fact that WP uses it as an argument against switching to the short syntax.
I haven't seen anyone from the WP team make that argument in this
thread, so I'd be cautious about treating it as WP's settled position
rather than a reason attributed to them.
Ahum.... I'm one of the maintainers of the WordPress Coding Standards,
which is the team which would address these type of syntax changes for WP.
There have been numerous discussions [1][2][3] within the WP community
about allowing/enforcing short array syntax over the years and time and
time again, this has been blocked by a select group of WP Core
committers not supporting the proposal for the reasons I outlined before
(while the overwhelming majority of commenters from the WP community do
support the proposal).
1:
https://make.wordpress.org/core/2019/03/26/coding-standards-updates-for-php-5-6/
2: https://make.wordpress.org/core/2019/07/12/php-coding-standards-changes/
3: There have also been (more recent) discussions on the WP Slack, in
Trac and in various GH issues too...
On Thu, 2 Jul 2026 at 01:11, Juliette Reinders Folmer
php-internals_nospam@adviesenzo.nl wrote:
Ahum.... I'm one of the maintainers of the WordPress Coding Standards, which is the team which would address these type of syntax changes for WP.
Fair enough, and I'll happily take your word on the WP side. So I
withdraw the "cautious about treating it as WP's position" point.
It doesn't change my conclusion, though. That a group of core
committers has repeatedly blocked short-array syntax for their own
codebase is entirely their prerogative, but it's a project style
decision, not an argument about the language. WordPress doesn't set
PHP's direction, and "one large project prefers the older form" can't
be the reason PHP keeps a redundant construct indefinitely. Styles
adapt to the language at the version they target; that's the normal
direction of the relationship.
The fact that the
list()name may be confusing is IMO not a valid argument. That keyword has been in use for that particular purpose since a very long time in PHP - and even longer in other languages.
I disagree. As far as I'm aware, no other language uses list as the
destructuring construct; please point me to one if you know it, I'd
be genuinely interested. The languages I know all use a bracket/paren
form with no keyword: JS [a, b] = arr, Python a, b = seq, Rust
let [a, b] = arr, Swift let (a, b) = t. Others, such as SML,
OCaml, and Haskell, have a "List" module or type, but again, that's a
different thing.
Perl is the closest relative and I suspect PHP's inspiration, but Perl
writes it as bare parentheses, ($a, $b) = @arr, and calls the
operation "list assignment," where "list" means the parenthesised list
of values. There's no list(...) keyword doing the unpacking.
And that actually cuts the other way: Perl can call it "list
assignment" because Perl has a genuine first-class list. PHP doesn't
have a list type at all, so the keyword names something that doesn't
exist in the language. It destructures an array and even accepts keys
(list("k" => $v) = $a), which a genuine "list" would not.
Cheers,
Seifeddine
I have updated the RFC to include a deprecation proposal for the
list()construct.ref: https://wiki.php.net/rfc/deprecations_php_8_6#deprecate_the_list_construct
Hi Seifeddine,
I understand the reasoning behind freeing up the list keyword and
having a canonical way to destructure an array. However, I would argue
that the scale of this BC break far outweighs the benefits.
A quick GitHub code search shows 7 million^1 hits for "list(" in PHP
files. If we deprecate and eventually drop list() in PHP 9, we can
safely assume that a large portion of existing code will fail to
compile in PHP 9.
Furthermore, the documentation for list() offers no hint that []
is preferred over list(), and I would also argue that there is no
reason to prefer one over the other. Code-style guides can dictate a
project's or library's conventions, but we should take a more
conservative approach if we really have a strong technical reason to
prefer one syntax over another.
Based on the RFC text, aside from freeing up the list keyword for
potential future use, I do not see a sufficiently strong technical
reason to deprecate list().
Thank you.
I have updated the RFC to include a deprecation proposal for the
list()construct.ref: https://wiki.php.net/rfc/deprecations_php_8_6#deprecate_the_list_construct
Hi Seifeddine,
I understand the reasoning behind freeing up thelistkeyword and
having a canonical way to destructure an array. However, I would argue
that the scale of this BC break far outweighs the benefits.A quick GitHub code search shows 7 million[^1] hits for "list(" in PHP
files.
That 7 million figure is misleading, as it also matches methods and
functions with a list suffix. Excluding forks, archived, generated,
and vendored code, and searching only for list($ brings it down to
roughly 1 million:
https://github.com/search?q=%22+list%28%24%22+lang%3Aphp+NOT+is%3Afork+NOT+is%3Aarchived+NOT+is%3Agenerated+NOT+is%3Avendored&type=code
[...] If we deprecate and eventually drop
list()in PHP 9, we can
safely assume that a large portion of existing code will fail to
compile in PHP 9.
That's the purpose of the deprecation period: like any feature or
syntax that gets removed, it gives people time to migrate away from
the old construct. In this case the migration is purely mechanical,
and the RFC already provides a one-liner for it: ast-grep run --pattern 'list($$$ARGS)' --rewrite '[$$$ARGS]' --lang php -U
Furthermore, the documentation for
list()offers no hint that[]
is preferred overlist(), and I would also argue that there is no
reason to prefer one over the other. Code-style guides can dictate a
project's or library's conventions, but we should take a more
conservative approach if we really have a strong technical reason to
prefer one syntax over another.
list() does not currently recommend [] because it has not yet been
deprecated, and it exists only as an alternative syntax for [] in
write positions ( post 7.1 ). Once deprecated, the documentation and
coding styles will have to adopt the change. A library's stylistic
preference for a redundant syntax should not dictate language design;
it should follow the change.
Based on the RFC text, aside from freeing up the
listkeyword for
potential future use, I do not see a sufficiently strong technical
reason to deprecatelist().
Freeing up the list keyword for a potential future list type is
indeed the main motivation, but not the only one: it also simplifies
the language grammar and leaves newcomers with fewer things to learn.
Cheers,
Seifeddine.
That 7 million figure is misleading, as it also matches methods and
functions with alistsuffix. Excluding forks, archived, generated,
and vendored code, and searching only forlist($brings it down to
roughly 1 million:
https://github.com/search?q=%22+list%28%24%22+lang%3Aphp+NOT+is%3Afork+NOT+is%3Aarchived+NOT+is%3Agenerated+NOT+is%3Avendored&type=code
You can bring it back up to ~2.4 million with a regular expression:
Hello Internals,
I have updated the RFC to include a deprecation proposal for the
list()construct.ref: https://wiki.php.net/rfc/deprecations_php_8_6#deprecate_the_list_construct
Cheers,
Seifeddine.
Hey Seifeddine
with you here on the problems with list(); that it should be deprecated
and go eventually. Though, you get quite some resistance with strong
arguments.
You said in one of your answers something like "one project holding back
the PHP language". While in essence true, Wordpress is not just any
project -- it's still the biggest multiplicator for PHP usage. The
amount of deprecation logs printed on a daily basis, the amount of
support generated, and the general impact will be huge.
I know that's not what you signed up for when adding this deprecation to
the RFC, but perhaps getting list() as language construct deprecated
would be easier if there would be an actual function replacement like
array_destruct() that would address the readability argument (which is
hard to discuss away because it is hyper subjective). Generally, there
is nothing wrong with having a short and long syntax -- we do have the
same with control flows and such.
Of course I don't mean to ask you to withdraw the deprecation proposal
here. However, in case it fails the above perhaps could bring this
forward (probably together with solutions for array() and
var_export() :)).
--
Cheers
Nick
You said in one of your answers something like "one project holding back
the PHP language". While in essence true, Wordpress is not just any
project -- it's still the biggest multiplicator for PHP usage. The
amount of deprecation logs printed on a daily basis, the amount of
support generated, and the general impact will be huge.
I'll be honest, the size of the project isn't the part I find
relevant. The objection only works if you assume a chain that doesn't
actually happen: that merging this deprecation means every WP instance
upgrades, that PHP 9.0 appears out of nowhere, and that apps break the
next morning. None of those steps are automatic or imminent.
A deprecation in 8.6 emits a notice; it is not an error and nothing
stops working, regardles of how many list() instances are in the
codebase. Actual removal is 9.0, which is years away. And instances
don't upgrade themselves. A site must be actively moved onto a version
that removed the construct before anything can break, and a site
nobody maintains isn't being moved anywhere. So the "huge impact" is,
at worst, deprecation notices in logs during a multi-year window that
exists precisely to absorb them. That's true whether WordPress has one
instance or a hundred million; the count doesn't change what a notice
is.
No project steers the language for me, WordPress included. but I don't
even need that principle here. The scenario people are picturing just
isn't the one the deprecation cycle produces.
array_destruct()that would address the readability argument (which is
hard to discuss away because it is hyper subjective).
This can't work, and not for stylistic reasons. Destructuring happens
in a write context: the construct sits on the left of = and
receives bindings. A function can't do that. array_destruct($a, $b) = $arr isn't expressible, functions return values, they don't accept
assignment targets. So a function couldn't replace list(); you'd
need a new construct to stand in for it, which means adding grammar
rather than removing it. That's the opposite of what the RFC is trying
to do. This is also the crux of the readability point, I think:
list() looks like a function precisely because of the parentheses,
but it isn't one, and that mismatch is part of what makes the name
misleading in the first place.
array_destruct()that would address the readability argument (which is
hard to discuss away because it is hyper subjective).
This can't work, and not for stylistic reasons. Destructuring happens
in a write context: the construct sits on the left of=and
receives bindings. A function can't do that.array_destruct($a, $b) = $arrisn't expressible, functions return values, they don't accept
assignment targets. So a function couldn't replacelist(); you'd
need a new construct to stand in for it, which means adding grammar
rather than removing it. That's the opposite of what the RFC is trying
to do. This is also the crux of the readability point, I think:
list()looks like a function precisely because of the parentheses,
but it isn't one, and that mismatch is part of what makes the name
misleading in the first place.
Fair enough. I had no idea it couldn't be done.
Agreed that adding another language construct doesn't make sense; only
the naming isn't enough.
We still have a bit of time anyone else to propose additional
deprecations, and if you have write access feel free to add them directly
to the RFC.
Please note that with the new RFC policy rules the RFC must be finalized
and in a "frozen" state by the 13th of July at the latest.
Before I add it to the RFC, I wanted to get a quick temperature check on
whether people think it is finally time to deprecate and eventually remove
open_basedir?
The argument is that it's an old "hack" designed in an era when most people
ran php on shared hosts via mod_php (Apache) under the same username,
necessitating a way to separate users.
For any hosting provider prioritizing security, better solutions exist now
(VPC, php-fpm with different user pools, etc...) Therefore, this solution
has outlived its usefulness and only adds complexity & overhead to file
operations across the codebase.
--
Ilia Alshanetsky
Technologist, CTO, Entrepreneur
E: ilia@ilia.ws
T: @iliaa
B: http://ilia.ws
Am 2026-06-29 19:07, schrieb Ilia:
Before I add it to the RFC, I wanted to get a quick temperature check
on
whether people think it is finally time to deprecate and eventually
remove
open_basedir?
I would be very much in favor of it, but please make sure to find the
(various) existing discussions to reference. Given the amount of related
discussion that have happened before, it might also make sense to do
this as its own RFC.
Best regards
Tim Düsterhus
We still have a bit of time anyone else to propose additional
deprecations, and if you have write access feel free to add them directly
to the RFC.
Please note that with the new RFC policy rules the RFC must be finalized
and in a "frozen" state by the 13th of July at the latest.Before I add it to the RFC, I wanted to get a quick temperature check on
whether people think it is finally time to deprecate and eventually remove
open_basedir?
Yes, but for PHP 9.
cheers
Derick
Hi
Am 2026-06-29 19:33, schrieb Derick Rethans:
Before I add it to the RFC, I wanted to get a quick temperature check
on
whether people think it is finally time to deprecate and eventually
remove
open_basedir?Yes, but for PHP 9.
To make sure we're on the same page: Are you proposing that
open_basedir should only be deprecated starting with PHP 9 (which
means that the removal would happen in PHP 10)?
Best regards
Tim Düsterhus
Am 2026-06-29 19:33, schrieb Derick Rethans:
Before I add it to the RFC, I wanted to get a quick temperature
check on whether people think it is finally time to deprecate and
eventually remove open_basedir?Yes, but for PHP 9.
To make sure we're on the same page: Are you proposing that
open_basedirshould only be deprecated starting with PHP 9 (which
means that the removal would happen in PHP 10)?
Sortof. I don't think it'd be good to deprecate it now, and then remove
it next year — in case the next release will be PHP 9 instead of PHP
8.7. I think a year is not long enough as deprecation period for this
one.
cheers,
Derick
--
https://derickrethans.nl | https://xdebug.org | https://xdebug.cloud
Author of Xdebug. Like it? Consider supporting me: https://xdebug.org/support
mastodon: @derickr@phpc.social @xdebug@phpc.social
Hi,
We still have a bit of time anyone else to propose additional
deprecations, and if you have write access feel free to add them directly
to the RFC.
Please note that with the new RFC policy rules the RFC must be finalized
and in a "frozen" state by the 13th of July at the latest.Before I add it to the RFC, I wanted to get a quick temperature check on
whether people think it is finally time to deprecate and eventually remove
open_basedir?
There are valid use cases for open_basedir where it can improve security of
the application. It just cannot be relied on as a sendbox in general sense
but removing it would be a mistake IMHO - not even mentioning that it would
require migration for many applications that might depend on it. So -1 on
it especially with such a late notice.
Kind regards,
Jakub
Hello internals,
It is this time of year again where we proposed a list of deprecations to add in PHP 8.6:
https://wiki.php.net/rfc/deprecations_php_8_6
As a reminder, this list has been compiled over the course of the past year by different people.
And as usual, each deprecation will be voted in isolation.
We still have a bit of time anyone else to propose additional deprecations, and if you have write access feel free to add them directly to the RFC.
Please note that with the new RFC policy rules the RFC must be finalized and in a "frozen" state by the 13th of July at the latest.Some deprecations should be non-controversial, others a bit more.
If a deprecation is really controversial, it might warrant its own dedicated RFC or be dropped altogether.Best regards,
Gina P. Banyard
Hello Internals,
I added Deprecate using “namespace” as a class constant or static
property name to the RFC:
--
Cheers
Nick