Any interest in a list type?

4 years ago by Andrea Faulds — view source

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Hi,

Matthew Brown wrote:

I imagine such a "list" type would be a subtype of "array" – everywhere
that array was accepted, a list would be also, and it would have the same
copy-on-write behaviour.

IIRC with the modern implementation of arrays in the Zend Engine, you
can check that an array has no string keys, has keys in the right order,
and possibly even that they are all numbered 0 through (count($arr) - 1)
without gaps. I recall someone previously suggesting (not formally
proposing IIRC) we could have a standard library is_ function to check
these, but it didn't go anywhere. Anyway, someone who has touched the
code more recently than me would have to confirm (please do!), but I
think we could cheaply add a list type declaration that just checks
for an array fulfilling some or all of these criteria.

Making a special kind of array value that must stay a “list” sounds
more problematic… I think without automatic casting back and forth from
regular “arrays” it might play badly with existing code, but then there
would be no point…

Thanks for the interesting idea!
Andrea

4 years ago by Andrea Faulds — view source

unread

Hello again,

Andrea Faulds wrote:

Hi,

Matthew Brown wrote:

I imagine such a "list" type would be a subtype of "array" – everywhere
that array was accepted, a list would be also, and it would have the same
copy-on-write behaviour.

IIRC with the modern implementation of arrays in the Zend Engine, you
can check that an array has no string keys, has keys in the right order,
and possibly even that they are all numbered 0 through (count($arr) - 1)
without gaps.

Sorry, what I meant to say was “you can check [quickly in O(1) time]
that an array has no string keys [etc]”. This is because of the Zend
Engine's “packed arrays”.

Thanks,
Andrea

4 years ago by Andrea Faulds — view source

unread

Hello again everyone,

Andrea Faulds wrote:

Hello again,

Andrea Faulds wrote:

Hi,

Matthew Brown wrote:

I imagine such a "list" type would be a subtype of "array" – everywhere
that array was accepted, a list would be also, and it would have the
same
copy-on-write behaviour.

IIRC with the modern implementation of arrays in the Zend Engine, you
can check that an array has no string keys, has keys in the right
order, and possibly even that they are all numbered 0 through
(count($arr) - 1) without gaps.

Sorry, what I meant to say was “you can check [quickly in O(1) time]
that an array has no string keys [etc]”. This is because of the Zend
Engine's “packed arrays”.

Thanks,
Andrea

Since it's pretty simple, I decided to write a proof-of-concept
implementation of such a check. For simplicity's sake I haven't
implemented a type declaration right now, just an is_list() function,
but it could easily be extended to one. The implementation can be found
at
https://github.com/php/php-src/compare/master...hikari-no-yume:is_list
(and here's a direct commit link to the current version as of this
writing for the sake of historical record:
https://github.com/php/php-src/commit/f6fc94fae8d97743d23d276d66071dac1d240a05)

As I hoped, it can in several common cases give a TRUE result in O(1):

$ sapi/cli/php -r 'var_dump(is_list([]));'
No elements
bool(true)

$ sapi/cli/php -r 'var_dump(is_list([3, 2, 1]));'
Packed and without holes!
bool(true)

$ sapi/cli/php -r '$x = [3,2,1]; sort($x); var_dump(is_list($x));'
Packed and without holes!
bool(true)

$ sapi/cli/php -r '$x = [1,2,3,4]; unset($x[3]); var_dump($x,
is_list($x));'
Packed and without holes!
bool(true)

Unfortunately, it turns out that it can't always be fast! :(

The problem is that while an array can have the “packed” and “without
holes” flags IFF it has no string keys and all keys are in order without
gaps, that does not mean the reverse is true: that if an array lacks
those flags, it must have string keys, out-of-order keys or gaps. The
result is there are several cases where we must foreach over the array
to check if it's a “list”, which unfortunately means as bad as O(n) time
complexity depending on the array content.

For example we can't be sure if it has string keys without foreaching
over it:

$ sapi/cli/php -r 'var_dump(is_list(["foo"=>"bar","bar"=>"baz"]));'
Foreaching
Hit string key
bool(false)

I want to say that this used to be possible in the common case without
foreaching due to some flag on the HashTable, I think Dmitry added that.
But it might have been a proposed patch that didn't get in, or it was
reverted.

If this is check will only be used as a type declaration on
functions/return-types/properties and not as a general-purpose is_list()
function, we might decide that the O(n) worst-case is acceptable so long
as it only affects cases where the array is not a valid list, i.e. when
a TypeError would be thrown, because in production code, values being
type-checked should only rarely have the wrong type, so it should only
cause slowness during debugging. It is not like we are trying to make
throwing type errors fast… at least so I assume?

Unfortunately, this O(n) worst-case applies even to some valid lists.
For example:

$ sapi/cli/php -r '$x = [0=>1,2=>3,1=>2]; unset($x[2]); var_dump($x,
is_list($x));'
Foreaching
No irregularities encountered, true by slowest path
array(2) {
[0]=>
int(1)
[1]=>
int(2)
}
bool(true)

$ sapi/cli/php -r '$x = [1,2,3]; $x["foo"] = "bar"; unset($x["foo"]);
var_dump(is_list($x));'
Foreaching
No irregularities encountered, true by slowest path
bool(true)

Maybe these kinds of cases are uncommon enough that we could deem the
slowness acceptable. We could also use list type-checks as an
opportunity to optimise valid lists that aren't already “packed” to be
“packed” behind-the-scenes, speeding up subsequent checks. Also, it may
be the case that the Zend Engine's hashtable implementation could be
changed slightly to allow O(1) checks in more cases.

Anyway, I hope this was interesting and can help inform discussion and
perhaps provide inspiration!

Thanks,
Andrea

4 years ago by Marcio Almada — view source

unread

Hello!

Before I create an RFC or attempt a reference implementation, is there any
interest in adding (and then obviously supporting in perpetuity) a list
type?

The first line of PHP's documentation for "array" states: "An array in PHP
is actually an ordered map". There are some optimisations that make arrays
with ordered integer keys faster, but I'd be interested in a separate type
dedicated to sequential integer keys. Such a type would presumably
consume a little less memory.

Why "list" and not "vec" or similar? "list" is also a reserved word – I'm
imagining that you'd construct a list like

$l = list["a", "b", "c"];

I imagine such a "list" type would be a subtype of "array" – everywhere
that array was accepted, a list would be also, and it would have the same
copy-on-write behaviour.

If people are interested in having that type, there's a question of what to
do with

$some_list["a"] = 5;

Would you convert the $some_list to an array, or throw an exception?
Converting to an array would seem the more PHP-like thing to do.

Similarly, the behaviour of

$some_list[$key_out_of_current_range] = 5

would be a matter of debate too – would that turn $some_list into an array,
or would it fill up any preceding entries in the array with null?

What other questions are there? Is a "list" type even a good fit for PHP,
given most of its users seem pretty content with the current
swiss-army-knife array type?

Best wishes,

Matt

First, thanks for taking your time to bring some ideas.

One of the biggest problems with PHP arrays IMMO is that they are
suited to everything therefore
optimized for nothing. At least a contiguous list type, AKA real
array, could give us some opportunities.

But AFAIK adding another real type (not just a pseudo type) on the
engine comes with a cost. So,
it would make no sense to add a list type and incur in the same type
juggling array already has.

I'm not sure if I'm in favor of having this new type, but certainly
not in favor of allowing the list to
become an hash map by key assignments. One could always $array = [...$list] or even (array) $list
explicitly, perhaps.

Ty,
Márcio

4 years ago by Max Semenik — view source

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On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 10:00 PM Matthew Brown matthewmatthew@gmail.com
wrote:

Why "list" and not "vec" or similar? "list" is also a reserved word – I'm
imagining that you'd construct a list like

$l = list["a", "b", "c"];

"List" usually means linked list, "vector" would be much clearer and
consistent with many other languages

I imagine such a "list" type would be a subtype of "array" – everywhere
that array was accepted, a list would be also, and it would have the same
copy-on-write behaviour.

If people are interested in having that type, there's a question of what to
do with

$some_list["a"] = 5;

Would you convert the $some_list to an array, or throw an exception?
Converting to an array would seem the more PHP-like thing to do.

Similarly, the behaviour of

$some_list[$key_out_of_current_range] = 5

would be a matter of debate too – would that turn $some_list into an array,
or would it fill up any preceding entries in the array with null?

I personally would prefer as little implicit magic as possible. Just throw
exceptions instead of allowing people to accidentally shoot themselves on
the foot.

What other questions are there? Is a "list" type even a good fit for PHP,

given most of its users seem pretty content with the current
swiss-army-knife array type?

If we're to dream about some bright distant future of data structures, my
dream would be to have a set of structures that make their big O behavior
clear, à la C++ STL or many other languages' standard libraries. Some of
them are already present in SPL, but notably not what you're proposing.
Additionally, it would be wonderful to have generic versions, e.g.
List<int> would not just accept only ints, but would store them internally
as zend_long, avoiding the overhead of zvals.

--
Best regards,
Max Semenik

4 years ago by tyson andre — view source

unread

Miscellaneous thoughts on this:

Working to have a vote on https://github.com/php/php-src/pull/4886 might be a good first step, and something I was personally interested in seeing in 8.0-dev.
However, in the event you can't rule out that is_array($listParam) might not return true in the final implementation you decide on, maybe wait. (you said it'd be a subtype, and it seems like a lot of code would break, so that seems unlikely)
How would array_shift(), array_merge(array, list), array_intersect, etc., preg_match(), etc be handled? Would they return lists or arrays?
I'd really have liked to see data structures such as sets, variable-length vectors, etc. in core natively available as objects (or other types, but objects seemed the most practical).
Right now, there's php-ds https://www.php.net/manual/en/book.ds.php , but if I wanted to use vec/list in an application/library that was used in a wide variety of places, I'd really rather have something in core. (the drawbacks of using a polyfill would outweigh the performance benefits for a small fraction of adopters)
If those data types were natively available, maybe opcache and/or the jit could use specialized opcodes to reduce the overhead of offsetGet, etc., if the class was known.
References to list iyped properties class X { public list $list; } $x->list = &$localVar; unset($localVar[1]); may cause problems in implementation details if they're a subtype of arrays.
Forbidding them in typed properties and limiting the type to params and return types may work.
Having them limited to param type and return type checks (including some internal global function return types) would be how I'd prefer it (instead of adding a separate type elsewhere)
PHP already has special handling for iterable/callable.
Future scope of a list type hint might be to add a deprecation notice for list ($x, $y) = $array or `foreach ($x as list($y)) to avoid confusion
(even though it's currently unambiguous, and that probably will remain unambiguous)
Tyson

4 years ago by Matthew Brown — view source

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Thanks for your comments!

How would array_shift(), array_merge(array, list) ... be handled? Would
they return lists or arrays?

I think they would return lists where appropriate – Psalm & Phan already
infer some of that behaviour, adding runtime support would be an
undertaking, but not impossible.

References to list typed properties may cause problems...

I don't see this as being any different to how integer typed properties
work under float addition (as below) – we'd just not allow any modification
that violated the list type.

class X { public int $i = 0; }
$x = new X();
$x->i += 2.3;
echo $x->i; // 2, not 2.3

With declare(strict_types=1), the above is a fatal error – the same would
be true for operations that violated list typed properties

Having them limited to param type and return type checks

Would be happy for that compromise if the above proved confusing, or
difficult to implement

Miscellaneous thoughts on this:

Working to have a vote on https://github.com/php/php-src/pull/4886
might be a good first step, and something I was personally interested in
seeing in 8.0-dev.
However, in the event you can't rule out that is_array($listParam) might
not return true in the final implementation you decide on, maybe wait. (you
said it'd be a subtype, and it seems like a lot of code would break, so
that seems unlikely)

How would array_shift(), array_merge(array, list), array_intersect,
etc., preg_match(), etc be handled? Would they return lists or arrays?

I'd really have liked to see data structures such as sets,
variable-length vectors, etc. in core natively available as objects (or
other types, but objects seemed the most practical).
Right now, there's php-ds https://www.php.net/manual/en/book.ds.php ,
but if I wanted to use vec/list in an application/library that was used in
a wide variety of places, I'd really rather have something in core. (the
drawbacks of using a polyfill would outweigh the performance benefits for a
small fraction of adopters)

If those data types were natively available, maybe opcache and/or the
jit could use specialized opcodes to reduce the overhead of offsetGet,
etc., if the class was known.

References to list iyped properties class X { public list $list; } $x->list = &$localVar; unset($localVar[1]); may cause problems in
implementation details if they're a subtype of arrays.
Forbidding them in typed properties and limiting the type to params and
return types may work.

Having them limited to param type and return type checks (including some
internal global function return types) would be how I'd prefer it (instead
of adding a separate type elsewhere)
PHP already has special handling for iterable/callable.

Future scope of a list type hint might be to add a deprecation notice
for list ($x, $y) = $array or `foreach ($x as list($y)) to avoid confusion
(even though it's currently unambiguous, and that probably will remain
unambiguous)

Tyson

4 years ago by Larry Garfield — view source

unread

Before I create an RFC or attempt a reference implementation, is there any
interest in adding (and then obviously supporting in perpetuity) a list
type?

The first line of PHP's documentation for "array" states: "An array in PHP
is actually an ordered map". There are some optimisations that make arrays
with ordered integer keys faster, but I'd be interested in a separate type
dedicated to sequential integer keys. Such a type would presumably
consume a little less memory.

Why "list" and not "vec" or similar? "list" is also a reserved word – I'm
imagining that you'd construct a list like

$l = list["a", "b", "c"];

I imagine such a "list" type would be a subtype of "array" – everywhere
that array was accepted, a list would be also, and it would have the same
copy-on-write behaviour.

If people are interested in having that type, there's a question of what to
do with

$some_list["a"] = 5;

Would you convert the $some_list to an array, or throw an exception?
Converting to an array would seem the more PHP-like thing to do.

Similarly, the behaviour of

$some_list[$key_out_of_current_range] = 5

would be a matter of debate too – would that turn $some_list into an array,
or would it fill up any preceding entries in the array with null?

What other questions are there? Is a "list" type even a good fit for PHP,
given most of its users seem pretty content with the current
swiss-army-knife array type?

Most users don't realize that PHP's arrays-not-really-arrays have caused millions of dollars in security breaches in the past. :-) They're dangerous and to be avoided whenever possible.

I'm very open to a list/sequence type, but as others have noted there's a whole crapload of details to sort out to make it viable. In particular:

Is it an effective subclass of array? IMO, no. It should have absolutely no auto-conversion to/from an array whatsoever of any kind, period. Keep them as separate as possible.
Should it even have random-access indexes? Honestly I'd say no; Just support adding, removing, and iteration and generate the indexes on the fly when iterating if necessary.
Should they pass like arrays or like objects? Many questions here.
Should they be mutable or immutable? I could argue for either one effectively, I think, though I'd honestly favor immutable.
Are they iterable? Presumably, but does that have any weird implications for iterables that implicitly assume there are keys? How's that work?
Does it make sense to add them without type enforcement via generics? Lists + Generics would be lovely, but as we've seen Generics are Hard(tm) and Not Imminent(tm). But would adding them now make a generic version harder in the future? (I've no idea.)
Besides add/remove/iterate, what other baked-in functionality should they have? Eg, can they be mapped/filtered/reduced? It would really suck to revisit lists and not fix that disconnect in the API. (Insert me talking about comprehensions and stuff here.) Ideally this would happen as part of a larger review of how collections work at various levels, which are currently highly clunky.

Those are all solvable problems (and I've likely forgotten several), but they would have to be thought through extensively before an implementation could be viable.

--Larry Garfield

4 years ago by Matthew Brown — view source

unread

Is it an effective subtype of array?

I was thinking it should be (with the auto-conversion mentioned above), but
I can see a compelling case to not have the auto-conversion when
manipulating – while it would bloat the stdlib a little (we'd need a whole
bunch of list_* functions) the separation would simplify things a lot (e.g.
list_filter would return a list with sequential keys, whereas array_filter
returns an array with possibly non-sequential keys)

And then you could cast between the two like "(list) $some_array" (which
would preserve order but remove keys) and "(array) $some_list" as
necessary. There could even be some automatic list <-> array casting when
calling functions not in strict_types mode.

Should they pass like arrays or like objects

Definitely like arrays – I want them to be a drop-in-replacement for people
who currently use arrays in places lists are more appropriate.

Should they be mutable or immutable

Definitely mutable, like arrays are

Are they iterable

Yes, the keys are sequential integers

Does it make sense to add them without type enforcement via generics

Absolutely – this shouldn't be tied to generics landing (which I'd imagine
is a PHP 9 feature at this point, whereas this could be a PHP 8.x feature).

can they be mapped/filtered/reduced

Absolutely – I think we'd have list_map, list_filter, list_reduce functions
to provide that functionality.

Before I create an RFC or attempt a reference implementation, is there
any
interest in adding (and then obviously supporting in perpetuity) a list
type?

The first line of PHP's documentation for "array" states: "An array in
PHP
is actually an ordered map". There are some optimisations that make
arrays
with ordered integer keys faster, but I'd be interested in a separate
type
dedicated to sequential integer keys. Such a type would presumably
consume a little less memory.

Why "list" and not "vec" or similar? "list" is also a reserved word – I'm
imagining that you'd construct a list like

$l = list["a", "b", "c"];

I imagine such a "list" type would be a subtype of "array" – everywhere
that array was accepted, a list would be also, and it would have the same
copy-on-write behaviour.

If people are interested in having that type, there's a question of what
to
do with

$some_list["a"] = 5;

Would you convert the $some_list to an array, or throw an exception?
Converting to an array would seem the more PHP-like thing to do.

Similarly, the behaviour of

$some_list[$key_out_of_current_range] = 5

would be a matter of debate too – would that turn $some_list into an
array,
or would it fill up any preceding entries in the array with null?

What other questions are there? Is a "list" type even a good fit for PHP,
given most of its users seem pretty content with the current
swiss-army-knife array type?

Most users don't realize that PHP's arrays-not-really-arrays have caused
millions of dollars in security breaches in the past. :-) They're
dangerous and to be avoided whenever possible.

I'm very open to a list/sequence type, but as others have noted there's a
whole crapload of details to sort out to make it viable. In particular:

Is it an effective subclass of array? IMO, no. It should have
absolutely no auto-conversion to/from an array whatsoever of any kind,
period. Keep them as separate as possible.

Should it even have random-access indexes? Honestly I'd say no; Just
support adding, removing, and iteration and generate the indexes on the fly
when iterating if necessary.

Should they pass like arrays or like objects? Many questions here.

Should they be mutable or immutable? I could argue for either one
effectively, I think, though I'd honestly favor immutable.

Are they iterable? Presumably, but does that have any weird
implications for iterables that implicitly assume there are keys? How's
that work?

Does it make sense to add them without type enforcement via generics?
Lists + Generics would be lovely, but as we've seen Generics are Hard(tm)
and Not Imminent(tm). But would adding them now make a generic version
harder in the future? (I've no idea.)

Besides add/remove/iterate, what other baked-in functionality should
they have? Eg, can they be mapped/filtered/reduced? It would really suck
to revisit lists and not fix that disconnect in the API. (Insert me
talking about comprehensions and stuff here.) Ideally this would happen as
part of a larger review of how collections work at various levels, which
are currently highly clunky.

Those are all solvable problems (and I've likely forgotten several), but
they would have to be thought through extensively before an implementation
could be viable.

--Larry Garfield

4 years ago by Larry Garfield — view source

unread

Is it an effective subtype of array?

I was thinking it should be (with the auto-conversion mentioned above), but
I can see a compelling case to not have the auto-conversion when
manipulating – while it would bloat the stdlib a little (we'd need a whole
bunch of list_* functions) the separation would simplify things a lot (e.g.
list_filter would return a list with sequential keys, whereas array_filter
returns an array with possibly non-sequential keys)

And then you could cast between the two like "(list) $some_array" (which
would preserve order but remove keys) and "(array) $some_list" as
necessary. There could even be some automatic list <-> array casting when
calling functions not in strict_types mode.

Should they pass like arrays or like objects

Definitely like arrays – I want them to be a drop-in-replacement for people
who currently use arrays in places lists are more appropriate.

Should they be mutable or immutable

Definitely mutable, like arrays are

That has a long list of possible issues with it relating to spooky action at a distance, depending on the passing semantics. In some languages lists are immutable, and with PHP's copy-on-write it may make more sense to just go immutable.

Are they iterable

Yes, the keys are sequential integers

Does it make sense to add them without type enforcement via generics

Absolutely – this shouldn't be tied to generics landing (which I'd imagine
is a PHP 9 feature at this point, whereas this could be a PHP 8.x feature).

can they be mapped/filtered/reduced

Absolutely – I think we'd have list_map, list_filter, list_reduce functions
to provide that functionality.

Why duplicate all of them? Rather, map/filter/reduce need to be recast to work on any iterable, which would then include lists. Or, if lists are an object they would be methods on the object.

Hence my point. Lists would only make sense if we're also rethinking how collections work generally, for which we're already overdue. Just tossing them in as yet-another-different-thing would make the situation worse, not better.

--Larry Garfield

4 years ago by Matthew Brown — view source

unread

map/filter/reduce need to be recast to work on any iterable, which would
then include lists
Lists would only make sense if we're also rethinking how collections work
generally

I disagree – I think the most successful PHP language additions have been
those that allow PHP developers to improve their code without having to
think too hard – for example, property, return and param types can be added
to existing code without changing its behaviour at runtime, as long as the
added types align with actual behaviour.

If list types work in a wholly different fashion to arrays, they won't be a
drop-in-replacement, they won't feel familiar to the average PHP developer,
and I imagine few people would update existing code to use them, because
it'd be too risky.

Is it an effective subtype of array?

I was thinking it should be (with the auto-conversion mentioned above),
but
I can see a compelling case to not have the auto-conversion when
manipulating – while it would bloat the stdlib a little (we'd need a
whole
bunch of list_* functions) the separation would simplify things a lot
(e.g.
list_filter would return a list with sequential keys, whereas
array_filter
returns an array with possibly non-sequential keys)

And then you could cast between the two like "(list) $some_array" (which
would preserve order but remove keys) and "(array) $some_list" as
necessary. There could even be some automatic list <-> array casting when
calling functions not in strict_types mode.

Should they pass like arrays or like objects

Definitely like arrays – I want them to be a drop-in-replacement for
people
who currently use arrays in places lists are more appropriate.

Should they be mutable or immutable

Definitely mutable, like arrays are

That has a long list of possible issues with it relating to spooky action
at a distance, depending on the passing semantics. In some languages lists
are immutable, and with PHP's copy-on-write it may make more sense to just
go immutable.

Are they iterable

Yes, the keys are sequential integers

Does it make sense to add them without type enforcement via generics

Absolutely – this shouldn't be tied to generics landing (which I'd
imagine
is a PHP 9 feature at this point, whereas this could be a PHP 8.x
feature).

can they be mapped/filtered/reduced

Absolutely – I think we'd have list_map, list_filter, list_reduce
functions
to provide that functionality.

Why duplicate all of them? Rather, map/filter/reduce need to be recast to
work on any iterable, which would then include lists. Or, if lists are an
object they would be methods on the object.

Hence my point. Lists would only make sense if we're also rethinking how
collections work generally, for which we're already overdue. Just tossing
them in as yet-another-different-thing would make the situation worse, not
better.

--Larry Garfield

4 years ago by Larry Garfield — view source

unread

map/filter/reduce need to be recast to work on any iterable, which would
then include lists
Lists would only make sense if we're also rethinking how collections work
generally

I disagree – I think the most successful PHP language additions have been
those that allow PHP developers to improve their code without having to
think too hard – for example, property, return and param types can be added
to existing code without changing its behaviour at runtime, as long as the
added types align with actual behaviour.

If list types work in a wholly different fashion to arrays, they won't be a
drop-in-replacement, they won't feel familiar to the average PHP developer,
and I imagine few people would update existing code to use them, because
it'd be too risky.

Please don't top-post.
I don't mean "make them as unlike arrays as possible". I mean "think through the implications of having a third type of iterable; what other functions would be affected? Should we reconsider how map/filter/reduce work generally instead of just throwing a bunch more random functions at it? What are the knock-on effects? Should we also be adding a dedicated dictionary type as well? Why or why not?"

This is the design process for a language, and it's important. "Let's just throw a numeric-only list type into the pool and see what happens" is a very bad idea. Stepping back to reconsider how collections work generally, and how we can improve them in a graceful way that leads to a clean end-state, would be very valuable.

--Larry Garfield

4 years ago by Matthew Brown — view source

unread

This is the design process for a language, and it's important...
Stepping back to reconsider how collections work generally, and how we can
improve them in a graceful way that leads to a clean end-state, would be
very valuable.

Though you have much more experience with internals than I do, I think that
building a consensus around a bold new vision for PHP collections would be
a near-Sisyphean task.

Adding a list/vector type would be a much smaller, more easily definable
task – it was one of the first new types that Hack added, and by all
accounts they're pretty happy with that decision.

Should we also be adding a dedicated dictionary type as well?

Maybe? I think there'd be less to gain from a performance standpoint
though, so I didn't want to lump that in with any list proposal and risk
derailment.

4 years ago by Levi Morrison via internals — view source

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This is the design process for a language, and it's important...
Stepping back to reconsider how collections work generally, and how we can
improve them in a graceful way that leads to a clean end-state, would be
very valuable.

Though you have much more experience with internals than I do, I think that
building a consensus around a bold new vision for PHP collections would be
a near-Sisyphean task.

Adding a list/vector type would be a much smaller, more easily definable
task – it was one of the first new types that Hack added, and by all
accounts they're pretty happy with that decision.

IIRC, they switched from object semantics to value semantics (like PHP
arrays). Can someone more knowledgeable confirm?

Should we also be adding a dedicated dictionary type as well?

Maybe? I think there'd be less to gain from a performance standpoint
though, so I didn't want to lump that in with any list proposal and risk
derailment.

4 years ago by Matthew Brown — view source

unread

IIRC, they switched from object semantics to value semantics (like PHP
arrays). Can someone more knowledgeable confirm?

Yes, sorry – Hack introduced the vec type (with value semantics) in 2016
after they'd experimented first with Vector (object semantics). Use of
Vector is now discouraged.

Details here: https://github.com/facebook/hhvm/issues/6451

FB/Hack appears to be in the multi-year process of moving all PHP arrays to
one of [vec/dict/keyset]. That's likely not an option for PHP itself, but
having the option of a vec equivalent (in this proposal "list") would
make sense, I think.

4 years ago by Levi Morrison via internals — view source

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IIRC, they switched from object semantics to value semantics (like PHP
arrays). Can someone more knowledgeable confirm?

Yes, sorry – Hack introduced the vec type (with value semantics) in 2016 after they'd experimented first with Vector (object semantics). Use of Vector is now discouraged.

Details here: https://github.com/facebook/hhvm/issues/6451

FB/Hack appears to be in the multi-year process of moving all PHP arrays to one of [vec/dict/keyset]. That's likely not an option for PHP itself, but having the option of a vec equivalent (in this proposal "list") would make sense, I think.

Yeah, I already figured that value semantics would be preferred for
this. From the engine perspective, we probably wouldn't want to
special case these 3 types and would probably want to figure out some
way for at least internal classes to have value semantics. Any
contrarian opinions there, especially from main php-src contributors
like Nikita and Dmitry?

4 years ago by Larry Garfield — view source

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This is the design process for a language, and it's important...
Stepping back to reconsider how collections work generally, and how we can
improve them in a graceful way that leads to a clean end-state, would be
very valuable.

Though you have much more experience with internals than I do, I think that
building a consensus around a bold new vision for PHP collections would be
a near-Sisyphean task.

Disclosure: I've been around the list for over a decade and talked a lot, but the recent pipe RFC is my first core patch. I'm still one of the little people around here. :-) Though I have successfully engaged in Sisyphean tasks before. (GoPHP5, Drupal 8, FIG, etc.)

Adding a list/vector type would be a much smaller, more easily definable
task – it was one of the first new types that Hack added, and by all
accounts they're pretty happy with that decision.

I think we may be talking past each other. I don't mean "rewrite all the things." Just taking the time to think through "if we have a list type, generators, and array/dicts, what should all of the ancillary bits around them be to make them as smooth as possible?" Viz, how do we NOT have array_map, list_map, and generator_map as 3 separate functions, because that would be awful. Are list generators and array/dict generators different things or the same thing, or...? Would comprehensions make sense as part of such a plan? (IMO yes.) But then, do comprehensions produce lists or dicts or...?

That's the sort of knock-on effects that should be thought through before we commit code, because in the long run it would reduce the amount of code to commit (and the amount of WTF for users).

--Larry Garfield

4 years ago by Dusk — view source

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I recall someone previously suggesting (not formally proposing IIRC) we could have a standard library is_ function to check these, but it didn't go anywhere.

That would be me, and I had a draft implementation for it:

https://github.com/php/php-src/pull/4886

My proposal was more oriented towards adding a function to test whether an array was list-like (all keys are sequential integers), though, not adding it as a formal type.