# interesting read about challenges in the drupal organization - Thread: https://externals.io/message/79767 - Original archive: https://news-web.php.net/php.internals/79767 - Started by Ferenc Kovacs on 2014-12-17T08:53:57+00:00 - Messages: 4 - Reply by email to internals@lists.php.net - More for agents: search with https://externals.io/search.md?q={query} · JSON API at https://externals.io/api · documentation at https://externals.io/llms.txt --- ## #79767 — Ferenc Kovacs — 2014-12-17T08:53:57+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/79767#79767 Hi, while readon through http://www.garfieldtech.com/blog/on-drupals-leadership, I've realized that there is a bunch of similarities between php internals and drupal (which isn't that surprising), so I thought they guys around there perceive the challenges/problems and the different possible solutions for those. -- Ferenc Kovács @Tyr43l - http://tyrael.hu --- ## #79768 — Florian Margaine — 2014-12-17T09:23:21+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/79767#79768 · In reply to: #79767 Hi, Le 17 déc. 2014 09:54, "Ferenc Kovacs" a écrit : > > Hi, > > while readon through http://www.garfieldtech.com/blog/on-drupals-leadership, > I've realized that there is a bunch of similarities between php internals > and drupal (which isn't that surprising), so I thought they guys around > there perceive the challenges/problems and the different possible solutions > for those. > I haven't read the article yet, but there is a fundamental difference between Drupal and php: Drupal has a BDFL. > -- > Ferenc Kovács > @Tyr43l - http://tyrael.hu Cheers, Florian --- ## #79769 — Ferenc Kovacs — 2014-12-17T09:30:32+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/79767#79769 · In reply to: #79768 On Wed, Dec 17, 2014 at 10:23 AM, Florian Margaine wrote: > > Hi, > > Le 17 déc. 2014 09:54, "Ferenc Kovacs" a écrit : > > […] > http://www.garfieldtech.com/blog/on-drupals-leadership, > > […] > solutions > > […] > > I haven't read the article yet, but there is a fundamental difference > between Drupal and php: Drupal has a BDFL. > you should check out the article, Larry also goes into details about the topic, and how Drupal seem to try avoiding focusing to much power in one hand and potential abuse which also has negative effects (lack of clarity and the fear of making decisions). relevant parts are: "A good formal structure offers something that an informal structure cannot: Clarity. If a new contributor wants to ask someone in a "leadership" position if what they're proposing is consistent with the project direction, goals, or software design, who should they ask? Me? Gábor? catch? xjm? Daniel Wehner? Tim Plunkett? Angie Byron? Alex Bronstein? chx? Dries himself? Depending on the question the answer could be very different; even among those "leaders" I doubt there's consensus on which of them to ask, much less what the answer should be. That's actively hostile to new contributors, because then they don't know if what they're suggesting (be it big or small) would even be accepted until it's committed (and occasionally not even then ). That is, it makes most contributions spec work, even for those in de facto leadership positions." and "If the movement continues deliberately to not select who shall exercise power, it does not thereby abolish power. All it does is abdicate the right to demand that those who do exercise power and influence be responsible for it. If the movement continues to keep power as diffuse as possible because it knows it cannot demand responsibility from those who have it... it insures that the movement is as ineffective as possible." really interesting read. -- Ferenc Kovács @Tyr43l - http://tyrael.hu --- ## #79784 — Larry Garfield — 2014-12-17T15:56:09+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/79767#79784 · In reply to: #79769 > On Wed, Dec 17, 2014 at 10:23 AM, Florian Margaine > wrote: > > […] > you should check out the article, Larry also goes into details about the > topic, and how Drupal seem to try avoiding focusing to much power in one > hand and potential abuse which also has negative effects (lack of clarity > and the fear of making decisions). > relevant parts are: > "A good formal structure offers something that an informal structure > cannot: Clarity. If a new contributor wants to ask someone in a > "leadership" position if what they're proposing is consistent with the > project direction, goals, or software design, who should they ask? Me? > Gábor? catch? xjm? Daniel Wehner? Tim Plunkett? Angie Byron? Alex > Bronstein? chx? Dries himself? Depending on the question the answer could > be very different; even among those "leaders" I doubt there's consensus on > which of them to ask, much less what the answer should be. That's actively > hostile to new contributors, because then they don't know if what they're > suggesting (be it big or small) would even be accepted until it's committed > (and occasionally not even then > ). That is, it makes > most contributions spec work, even for those in de facto leadership > positions." > > and > > "If the movement continues deliberately to not select who shall exercise > power, it does not thereby abolish power. All it does is abdicate the right > to demand that those who do exercise power and influence be responsible for > it. If the movement continues to keep power as diffuse as possible because > it knows it cannot demand responsibility from those who have it... it > insures that the movement is as ineffective as possible." > > really interesting read. Thanks for the shout-out, Ferenc. :-) While Drupal has a BDFL (Dries Buytaert), he is a very soft-touch BDFL. Soft-touch to the point that he may as well not be there more often than not. There's a very few number of appointees that he names that are more active and impactful, but even they have almost no official formal power or authority. (I am one of them.) This is a lengthy, ongoing discussion about the need for structure as a project scales, something that many people really really don't like to think about. I've been collecting installments in this discussion within Drupal going back years: http://www.garfieldtech.com/drupal/leadership And yes, I do believe much of the discussion applies to PHP Internals, too (with some caveats of course, since they are different projects). I especially recommend Lisa Welchman's "The Paradox of Open Growth" talk, linked from about the middle of the document, which applies to any growing community. --Larry Garfield