# Censorship in php - Thread: https://externals.io/message/70803 - Original archive: https://news-web.php.net/php.internals/70803 - Started by Lester Caine on 2013-12-21T08:32:42+00:00 - Messages: 22 - Reply by email to internals@lists.php.net - More for agents: search with https://externals.io/search.md?q={query} · JSON API at https://externals.io/api · documentation at https://externals.io/llms.txt --- ## #70803 — Lester Caine — 2013-12-21T08:32:42+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/70803#70803 I know I will get my head chewed off, but I'm going to speak out anyway ... In a world where 'fixed width' web style is pushed as the standard, the PHP site has always been a breath of fresh air with it's full width style. It used to work nicely on wide format monitors which I'm sure many of you use on your development systems. If the 'change of style' has been discussed anywhere, I've not seen that discussion but that is not unusual nowadays as all these little cliques seem to work off-line and then dump the results on us. The new 'feedback' area seems to be hosted elsewhere anyway? The 'style' of having voting only FOR something without the ability to object, and the blocking of the alternate view is simply not acceptable. How many votes would 'hate it' get if it was not blocked? But what is even more irritating here is the fact that we have the technology to provide all of the flexibility for both styles of working to co-exist. That is what PHP is all about, so why when all of the content is dynamic anyway do we have to live with what is perceived by a few as better. Currently I'm having problems with something which was never a problem ... changing between sub-domains also needs a change of font size to make the site usable on my 3840x1200 desktop. PLEASE can we have 'theme' as a selection in the same way that 'language' can be changed. This is simply a lot more practical than the attempt to create a 'responsive' style that is a compromise on virtually all desktops :( -- Lester Caine - G8HFL ----------------------------- Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk --- ## #70805 — Kalle Sommer Nielsen — 2013-12-21T08:54:25+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/70803#70805 · In reply to: #70803 2013/12/21 Lester Caine : > I know I will get my head chewed off, but I'm going to speak out anyway ... I don't see how this is internals related, the webmaster list is more the place to go for this, so I would say thats the first reason why you might feel like your head gets chewed off -- regards, Kalle Sommer Nielsen kalle@php.net --- ## #70806 — Ferenc Kovacs — 2013-12-21T09:13:02+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/70803#70806 · In reply to: #70805 > 2013/12/21 Lester Caine : > > […] > ... > > I don't see how this is internals related, the webmaster list is more > the place to go for this, so I would say thats the first reason why > you might feel like your head gets chewed off > > -- > regards, > > Kalle Sommer Nielsen > kalle@php.net > > -- > > > > Yeah, and usually changes discussed on that list(php-webmaster@lists.php.net), and sometimes on irc (#php.doc channel on efnet network). Lester, if you have objections or feedback about the web related changes, please use the correct channels for discussing/reporting them. -- Ferenc Kovács @Tyr43l - http://tyrael.hu --- ## #70807 — Lester Caine — 2013-12-21T09:25:01+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/70803#70807 · In reply to: #70805 Kalle Sommer Nielsen wrote: > 2013/12/21 Lester Caine: > > […] > I don't see how this is internals related, the webmaster list is more > the place to go for this, so I would say thats the first reason why > you might feel like your head gets chewed off That is perhaps part of the problem? With the increasing number of lists and the vast escalation in work being done, there is not a single location where an overview can be obtained - now even on the website! Add external projects that are now being used as part of the core standards and things get even more confusing. Surely this is the core of the project and needs some control on how the project as a whole moves forward? -- Lester Caine - G8HFL ----------------------------- Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk --- ## #70817 — Ronald Chmara — 2013-12-21T19:52:25+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/70803#70817 · In reply to: #70807 > Kalle Sommer Nielsen wrote: > > > […] > > That is perhaps part of the problem? With the increasing number of lists > and the vast escalation in work being done, there is not a single location > where an overview can be obtained - now even on the website! Add external > projects that are now being used as part of the core standards and things > get even more confusing. Surely this is the core of the project and needs > some control on how the project as a whole moves forward? I am pretty sure that presentation on a website has almost nothing to do with the core of a language. Perhaps you might consider lurking on more of the lists, to determine appropriate topics for appropriate locations. There isn't a "single location" where an overview of it all can be obtained, PHP is too big for that. -Ronabop --- ## #70818 — Levi Morrison — 2013-12-21T20:01:10+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/70803#70818 · In reply to: #70807 The webmaster list has been around for a while; it's not a new list by any means... --- ## #70819 — Rowan Collins — 2013-12-21T22:33:58+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/70803#70819 · In reply to: #70803 > I know I will get my head chewed off, but I'm going to speak out > anyway ... Hi Lester, Rather than accepting a negative reaction as inevitable, perhaps you should think how you can improve your chances of a positive engagement. The PHP website links to a few "house rules" for these mailing lists [1], but beyond that a few things occur to me that would have improved your post (at least in my personal opinion): - Don't use inflammatory language. "Censorship" is a very loaded term, and using it too readily may well put people on the defensive, or create unnecessary controversy. (perhaps see also Rule 2: "Do not post when you are angry.") - Pick an accurate subject/title for your post. Your points were specifically about the new layout on the php.net website, but your subject line gives no clue to that. - Be clear on what point you are trying to discuss, and don't try to discuss several things at once. Part of your message is about a problem with the new php.net layout, but part is about the process of reporting that problem; it's not at all clear which you are expecting to be discussed. - Ask in the right place (see Rule 2: "Make sure you pick the right mailinglist for your posting."). There is a list of all the PHP mailing lists with descriptions [2] and you can click through to see the archives to get a feel for the topics discussed on each. If you're not sure of the right list, be honest and ready for someone to point you in the right direction. - Don't jump to accuse others (see Rule 1: "Respect other people working on the project."). You accuse "all these little cliques" of "dump[ing] the results on us" because you haven't seen the discussion which went into the layout change, but you give no details of where you looked for that discussion or where you expected it to take place. - Request improvements, don't demand them. Rather than saying that the current situation is "unacceptable", explain where you think the problem lies and the kind of things you would like to see to improve it. - Look for solutions as well as stating problems. You might not know an exact solution, but you could say what you think a better solution might look like - beyond a broad statement that the old layout worked better for you. - Be open to compromise. Others may have different opinions, or there may be technical impediments to what you would like to see. Compromise here might be in the form of multiple "themes", as you suggest, but that tends to have technical costs, so attempting to incorporate different ideas into one layout will always be preferable. In short, as the Wikipedia guidelines put it "Assume Good Faith" - approach mailing lists, forums, etc with the assumption that people will want to understand your concerns, and work with you to solve them, and you are more likely to find that assumption come true. [1] http://git.php.net/?p=php-src.git;a=blob_plain;f=README.MAILINGLIST_RULES;hb=HEAD [2] http://www.php.net/mailing-lists.php Regards, -- Rowan Collins [IMSoP] --- ## #70820 — Helmut Tessarek — 2013-12-21T23:14:31+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/70803#70820 · In reply to: #70819 > Rather than accepting a negative reaction as inevitable, perhaps you should > think how you can improve your chances of a positive engagement. The PHP > website links to a few "house rules" for these mailing lists [1], but beyond > that a few things occur to me that would have improved your post (at least in > my personal opinion): Are you serious? Now I really have to speak out as well. People in this list talk down to anybody who is not in their inner circle. Very often you get condescending replies and good ideas are pushed aside, because not in the interest of the core developers. It's not the first time that I heard and read that 'we can't do that, because it would break thousands of apps' (just an example). This is interesting, because Ruby, Python and Perl can do such stuff. For sake of backwards compatibility PHP keeps certain misbehavioral properties, which actually happens to make PHP an inconsistent language. Unless you know _exactly_ _every_ settings and _every_ function, you cannot predict what PHP might do. Any discussion regarding this topic always comes to this point: we have to live with it. A lot of constructive feedback gets ignored because people in this list think it has a negative tone, while using condescending language on their side. A little bit of double standards, don't you think? -- regards Helmut K. C. Tessarek lookup http://sks.pkqs.net for KeyID 0xC11F128D /* Thou shalt not follow the `NULL` pointer for chaos and madness await thee at its end. */ --- ## #70821 — Rowan Collins — 2013-12-21T23:39:08+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/70803#70821 · In reply to: #70820 > A lot of constructive feedback gets ignored because people in this list think > it has a negative tone, while using condescending language on their side. That may be, but it's not an excuse to start a thread with accusations and emotive language, rather than at least trying to give the constructive feedback on its own merits. I realise that I am making a judgement about Lester's tone, but it's hard to see words like "censorship" and "clique" as an invitation to calm discussion. My own biggest flaw is that I tend to be over-verbose, so my posts probably end up reading like rants when I am actually trying to contribute to the conversation. I apologise if that was the case here, and I will try to refine my points more succinctly in future. Regards, -- Rowan Collins [IMSoP] --- ## #70822 — Ronald Chmara — 2013-12-22T00:58:42+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/70803#70822 · In reply to: #70820 On Sat, Dec 21, 2013 at 3:14 PM, Helmut Tessarek wrote: > > > […] > should > > […] > beyond > > […] > least in > > […] > > Are you serious? Now I really have to speak out as well. > > People in this list talk down to anybody who is not in their inner circle. > Whose? Which one? I've been reading and writing to this list, off and on, for 13 years, and while my opinion does not always carry as much weight as others, I've found that it's a meritocracy. I have seen *many* "nobodies" become very respected in the larger community, based on their efforts in that time, and even more respected in their working areas. > Very often you get condescending replies and good ideas are pushed aside, > because not in the interest of the core developers. > Working code wins, always. Whining developers who do not write code for their ideas lose. > It's not the first time that I heard and read that 'we can't do that, > because > it would break thousands of apps' (just an example). > Thousands? No, many, many, millions. If you break PHP, you break Yahoo, Wikipedia, Wordpress, Facebook.... many millions of sites. Maybe billions at this point. > This is interesting, because Ruby, Python and Perl can do such stuff. > Because they all don't do anywhere near the same amount of sites. They are but drops in the bucket. > For sake of backwards compatibility PHP keeps certain misbehavioral > properties, which actually happens to make PHP an inconsistent language. > If you are looking for a language without backwards compatibility, that runs most of the internet, I suggest you try to write a new language. I do not suggest you ever try to improve it, but that you get it perfect, the first time. Good luck. > Unless you know _exactly_ _every_ settings and _every_ function, you cannot > predict what PHP might do. > So, unless you are fluent in a language, you cannot accurately predict what you are saying? This is your argument against it? (setting should have been singular, not plural, in your argument, BTW) You might as well argue that czeck is inherently bad if it's hard for english language people to learn. Or vice versa. > Any discussion regarding this topic always comes to this point: we have to > live with it. > Welcome to the internet's dominant programming language. Fork it if you want. Crashing a third or half of the internet for a pet feature or change is not an option. > A lot of constructive feedback gets ignored because people in this list > think > it has a negative tone, while using condescending language on their side. > Complaining is not code. It is not constructive. > A little bit of double standards, don't you think? Code always wins. Whining about code, or giving "feedback" on code, doesn't win. -Ronabop --- ## #70824 — Kris Craig — 2013-12-22T01:25:10+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/70803#70824 · In reply to: #70822 > > > Thousands? No, many, many, millions. If you break PHP, you break Yahoo, > Wikipedia, Wordpress, Facebook.... many millions of sites. Maybe billions > at this point. > > I don't think he's saying we should "break" PHP. I think he's saying that we tend to be overly worried about maintaining BC even on bad functionality, an assessment that I agree with. Maintaining BC religiously on minor increments is understandable. Breaking BC on a major release increment is not only ok, I would say it's even expected. Also keep in mind that big-timers like Facebook and Yahoo! aren't going to blindly upgrade to the latest version without first making sure their code is up to current standards (which they should be doing, anyway). Relevant: http://xkcd.com/1172/ --Kris --- ## #70825 — Helmut Tessarek — 2013-12-22T01:26:30+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/70803#70825 · In reply to: #70822 > Working code wins, always. Whining developers who do not write code for > their ideas lose. You so prove my point. Just because I write code, does not mean it makes it into the product. > Thousands? No, many, many, millions. If you break PHP, you break Yahoo, > Wikipedia, Wordpress, Facebook.... many millions of sites. Maybe billions > at this point. But changing default behavior does not break things? But this seems to be ok - at least sometimes. So there are acceptable changes that break millions of sites and then there are others. > If you are looking for a language without backwards compatibility, that > runs most of the internet, I suggest you try to write a new language. There are many ways to accomplish this task. One would be to create new functions while the old still exist, use DEPRECATED and WARNING in the log and gradually phase them out. This gives them time to change their code. > > […] > So, unless you are fluent in a language, you cannot accurately predict what > you are saying? This is your argument against it? I'm saying that PHP's behavior and functions are inconsistent. Some functions have a certain order for their arguments, others have them reversed (I know, this is rather a stupid example). Return values are inconsistent: -1, NULLS, exceptions, ... All of them make sense, but they should be used consistently across the board. But theses are just a few examples > (setting should have been singular, not plural, in your argument, BTW) Thanks, I wrote 'all' first and replaced it with 'exactly every' and forgot to remove the s at the end. What's your excuse for misspelling czech? > Welcome to the internet's dominant programming language. Fork it if you > want. Crashing a third or half of the internet for a pet feature or change > is not an option. I'm not talking about a pet feature, but the consistency of the language. > Complaining is not code. It is not constructive. Condescending language and behavior is not constructive either. > Code always wins. Whining about code, or giving "feedback" on code, doesn't > win. No, it doesn't. Only, iff it makes it into the product. -- regards Helmut K. C. Tessarek lookup http://sks.pkqs.net for KeyID 0xC11F128D /* Thou shalt not follow the `NULL` pointer for chaos and madness await thee at its end. */ --- ## #70826 — Helmut Tessarek — 2013-12-22T01:34:24+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/70803#70826 · In reply to: #70824 > I don't think he's saying we should "break" PHP. I think he's saying that > we tend to be overly worried about maintaining BC even on bad > functionality, an assessment that I agree with. Maintaining BC religiously > on minor increments is understandable. Breaking BC on a major release > increment is not only ok, I would say it's even expected. Also keep in > mind that big-timers like Facebook and Yahoo! aren't going to blindly > upgrade to the latest version without first making sure their code is up to > current standards (which they should be doing, anyway). +1 > Relevant: http://xkcd.com/1172/ +1 -- regards Helmut K. C. Tessarek lookup http://sks.pkqs.net for KeyID 0xC11F128D /* Thou shalt not follow the `NULL` pointer for chaos and madness await thee at its end. */ --- ## #70828 — Lester Caine — 2013-12-22T09:48:55+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/70803#70828 · In reply to: #70818 Levi Morrison wrote: > The webmaster list has been around for a while; it's not a new list by any means... If the discussion was on the webmaster list then fine. But currently the website is promoting a new venue for discussion not hosted by php.net as far as I can tell with no linkage back to the project at all? It requires a separate login and it's the control and administration of this which I am questioning. Like composer and php-fig it seems that the core project is happy to let others take control of what I consider fundamental development decisions and then drive developments within the project to better match that view of forward development. I will ask once again that PHP5.6 is shelved in favour of PHP6 to allow those of us who were happy with the stability that PHP used to provide to stabilise it once again with a version that we at least stand a chance of catching up with. Since the general feeling here seems to be that if someone is willing to promote their own pet project then so be it, perhaps now is the time to take advantage of DVCS and start promoting a 'simple PHP' project based on a time before 'e_strict' ... I still have sites that need reworking before they can be used on more modern PHP installations safely, so the suggestion that I should be monitoring even more lists does not go down well! -- Lester Caine - G8HFL ----------------------------- Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk --- ## #70829 — Lester Caine — 2013-12-22T10:07:26+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/70803#70829 · In reply to: #70825 Helmut Tessarek wrote: > > […] > But changing default behavior does not break things? But this seems to be ok - > at least sometimes. So there are acceptable changes that break millions of > sites and then there are others. How many of the big sites are actually using a stock build of PHP? I'm not talking about the privately run wordpress and jumla copies, but the core websites themselves? They forked PHP a long time ago? I have complained in the past and been shouted down over the fact that while 'yes' one can configure a PHP5.4 installation to run PHP5.2 code, there is a much higher chance that it will simply give you a white screen. I'm not currently running 5.5 ... there are not enough hours in the day! But I believe that many of you now understand that anything not rewritten to be e_strict complaint can't safely be left on a modern PHP infrastructure? Ploughing on blindly ignoring or suppressing 'opposing' views is the censorship I am talking about. Be that on the main php.net controlled sites or on the newly promoted third party ones! Where is the roadmap for PHP controlled from? It seems at present that there is simply no control at all over how the project is managed. -- Lester Caine - G8HFL ----------------------------- Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk --- ## #70830 — Ferenc Kovacs — 2013-12-22T10:21:01+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/70803#70830 · In reply to: #70829 2013.12.22. 11:05, "Lester Caine" ezt írta: > > Helmut Tessarek wrote: > > […] billions > > […] be ok - > > […] of > > […] > > > How many of the big sites are actually using a stock build of PHP? I'm not talking about the privately run wordpress and jumla copies, but the core websites themselves? They forked PHP a long time ago? > > I have complained in the past and been shouted down over the fact that while 'yes' one can configure a PHP5.4 installation to run PHP5.2 code, there is a much higher chance that it will simply give you a white screen. I'm not currently running 5.5 ... there are not enough hours in the day! But I believe that many of you now understand that anything not rewritten to be e_strict complaint can't safely be left on a modern PHP infrastructure? Ploughing on blindly ignoring or suppressing 'opposing' views is the censorship I am talking about. Be that on the main php.netcontrolled sites or on the newly promoted third party ones! > > Where is the roadmap for PHP controlled from? It seems at present that there is simply no control at all over how the project is managed. > > > -- > Lester Caine - G8HFL > ----------------------------- > Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact > L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk > EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ > Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk > Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk > > -- > > > For me it seems that you used the new php.net design as an excuse to bring up like the 100th time that how php is broken and should stop evolving so you have an easier time to maintaind your old code. Ofc. this is one use-case (and the reason why we care about BC so much), but this has nothing to do with the fact that some people put a bunch of work into a new modern php.net design or that they added that uservoice widget to have an easier way to get feedback from the visitors. Imo the fact, that through this years you are still here and you are free to repeat the same arguments (which you seem to be the minority on the list) shows that we don't do censorship. I think if there would be enough interest/need of an old but security backported php fork, it would already exists. If you really need that, your best bet would be picking a distro with long support cycle(rhel comes to mind) or starting the fork yourself. But don't forget that the new versions aren't just bells and whistles but there are a bunch of bugfixes and performance improvements, and some of those can't be done without breaking BC, so new versions and the need of manual review would exists even if we would have stopped adding new features. --- ## #70831 — Lester Caine — 2013-12-22T10:36:48+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/70803#70831 · In reply to: #70830 Ferenc Kovacs wrote: > I think if there would be enough interest/need of an old but security backported > php fork, it would already exists. http://w3techs.com/technologies/details/pl-php/5/all It does ... but it needs proper support to ensure that the important security issues do get addressed in PHP5.3 and 5.2 ... -- Lester Caine - G8HFL ----------------------------- Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk --- ## #70832 — Ferenc Kovacs — 2013-12-22T12:13:34+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/70803#70832 · In reply to: #70831 2013.12.22. 11:34, "Lester Caine" ezt írta: > > Ferenc Kovacs wrote: > > […] backported > > […] > > > http://w3techs.com/technologies/details/pl-php/5/all > > It does ... but it needs proper support to ensure that the important security issues do get addressed in PHP5.3 and 5.2 ... So it doesn't? As I mentioned some distros offer longer support cycle for their packages, but some of those numbers are from hosts which doesn't upgrade at all(running on EOLed distro releases), and there isn't much we can do about that except that we try to offer an upgrade path with the least PITA. --- ## #70848 — Rowan Collins — 2013-12-23T09:37:59+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/70803#70848 · In reply to: #70828 Lester Caine wrote (on 22/12/2013): > But currently the website is promoting a new venue for discussion not > hosted by php.net as far as I can tell with no linkage back to the > project at all? It requires a separate login and it's the control and > administration of this which I am questioning. I think the idea is that the feedback area doesn't require any login at all, and is not really for co-ordination and planning, just gathering feedback. There are many many people who use the php.net website who would never think to sign up to a co-ordination list or file a bug, so it's a useful way of getting their opinions. Looking at the open tickets yesterday, it seems to be gathering a range of opinions, both positive and negative. > Like composer and php-fig it seems that the core project is happy to > let others take control of what I consider fundamental development > decisions PHP is a programming language, not a framework, and that distinction is not new or unique to PHP. Composer is a package management tool, and php-fig is a set of coding standards; neither touch on the language itself, so for the core developers of the language to presume control of them would be unnecessary to the point of arrogance. The php.net website is, obviously, fairly central to the language, but its design is hardly in the same category as, say, whether PHP should have a ** operator, so having a separate team with different expertise managing it makes perfect sense. Regards, -- Rowan Collins [IMSoP] --- ## #70851 — Joe Watkins — 2013-12-23T09:52:00+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/70803#70851 · In reply to: #70828 > Levi Morrison wrote: > > […] > > If the discussion was on the webmaster list then fine. But currently the > website is promoting a new venue for discussion not hosted by php.net as > far as I can tell with no linkage back to the project at all? It > requires a separate login and it's the control and administration of > this which I am questioning. Like composer and php-fig it seems that the > core project is happy to let others take control of what I consider > fundamental development decisions and then drive developments within the > project to better match that view of forward development. > > I will ask once again that PHP5.6 is shelved in favour of PHP6 to allow > those of us who were happy with the stability that PHP used to provide > to stabilise it once again with a version that we at least stand a > chance of catching up with. > > Since the general feeling here seems to be that if someone is willing to > promote their own pet project then so be it, perhaps now is the time to > take advantage of DVCS and start promoting a 'simple PHP' project based > on a time before 'e_strict' ... I still have sites that need reworking > before they can be used on more modern PHP installations safely, so the > suggestion that I should be monitoring even more lists does not go down > well! > Morning Lester, Nobody is going to halt the progress of _anything_ because of a single voice; you are a single voice. The rest of the community want for PHP to move forward, toward stability of course (not that I'm aware of any particular instability), but while gathering worth while features - noteworthy: it's pretty much always been like that, nothing has changed. I dunno what your beef is, I'm sure it cannot be about the number of mailing lists you have to monitor ... but it would seem that rather than spending time on mailing lists complaining about the way things are, you could get involved, you could do any of the things you are saying are good ideas, and in your mind at least, you'd be making progress. In short, spending time on mailing lists, talking about feelings, doesn't seem to be a very good use of anyone's time, so I'd ask that you shelve this conversation, and let us all get on with what we're doing ... and by all means, get involved yourself, don't stand at the sidelines shouting "ref, you're doing it wrong" ... Cheers Joe --- ## #70867 — David Soria Parra — 2013-12-24T01:38:42+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/70803#70867 · In reply to: #70803 Lester Caine schrieb: > I know I will get my head chewed off, but I'm going to speak out anyway ... > > In a world where 'fixed width' web style is pushed as the standard, the PHP site > has always been a breath of fresh air with it's full width style. It used to > work nicely on wide format monitors which I'm sure many of you use on your > development systems. If the 'change of style' has been discussed anywhere, I've > not seen that discussion but that is not unusual nowadays as all these little > cliques seem to work off-line and then dump the results on us. The new > 'feedback' area seems to be hosted elsewhere anyway? > > The 'style' of having voting only FOR something without the ability to object, > and the blocking of the alternate view is simply not acceptable. How many votes > would 'hate it' get if it was not blocked? > > But what is even more irritating here is the fact that we have the technology to > provide all of the flexibility for both styles of working to co-exist. That is > what PHP is all about, so why when all of the content is dynamic anyway do we > have to live with what is perceived by a few as better. Currently I'm having > problems with something which was never a problem ... changing between > sub-domains also needs a change of font size to make the site usable on my > 3840x1200 desktop. > > PLEASE can we have 'theme' as a selection in the same way that 'language' can be > changed. This is simply a lot more practical than the attempt to create a > 'responsive' style that is a compromise on virtually all desktops :( Your constant complains have been noticed. Please refer to the right mailinglist with the right attitude. In addition to that I highly recommend sending patches over constant ranting and keeping away people from doing actual work. Communities like PHP are here to WORK together on a problem and the people who work on it (or any surrounding noteable projects) discuss it. If you don't have anything to contribute write a blog entry about it, but internal is not the right place for you rants. I am not sure if I have to get any clearer about that. Thank you. --- ## #70870 — Yasuo Ohgaki — 2013-12-24T06:12:00+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/70803#70870 · In reply to: #70803 Hi Lester, > Currently I'm having problems with something which was never a problem ... > changing between sub-domains also needs a change of font size to make the > site usable on my 3840x1200 desktop. How about give us screenshot of your desktop? It would help us to discuss constructively. It also helps if you present issues w/o your feelings. Keeping it simple and precise would help. Regards, -- Yasuo Ohgaki yohgaki@ohgaki.net