# Alternatives to mailing list? - Thread: https://externals.io/message/63478 - Original archive: https://news-web.php.net/php.internals/63478 - Started by Clint Priest on 2012-10-17T00:05:57+00:00 - Messages: 19 - Reply by email to internals@lists.php.net - More for agents: search with https://externals.io/search.md?q={query} · JSON API at https://externals.io/api · documentation at https://externals.io/llms.txt --- ## #63478 — Clint Priest — 2012-10-17T00:05:57+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/63478#63478 Is it just me or has this Property Accessors chain of emails been impossible to make heads or tails of? People replying within replies within replies, quoting partial emails, cross-posting and all sorts of chaos. Would anyone be willing to entertain an alternative "communication method" with specific respect to building/refining an RFC or fleshing out an idea? Heck, I think even live chat meeting over IRC would beat what's been going on... Not saying abandon the mailing list, it's crucial, but when there gets to be 150+ emails on one subject and numerous sub-subjects it just seems inefficient at best and chaos at its worst... I don't know of anything offhand that would work well but I'd be willing to try and find something we could try out. -Clint --- ## #63479 — Yahav Gindi Bar — 2012-10-17T00:18:12+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/63478#63479 · In reply to: #63478 I may sound old fashioned, but what about a forum? > Is it just me or has this Property Accessors chain of emails been > impossible to make heads or tails of? People replying within replies > within replies, quoting partial emails, cross-posting and all sorts of > chaos. > > Would anyone be willing to entertain an alternative "communication method" > with specific respect to building/refining an RFC or fleshing out an idea? > > Heck, I think even live chat meeting over IRC would beat what's been going > on... > > Not saying abandon the mailing list, it's crucial, but when there gets to > be 150+ emails on one subject and numerous sub-subjects it just seems > inefficient at best and chaos at its worst... > > I don't know of anything offhand that would work well but I'd be willing > to try and find something we could try out. > > -Clint --- ## #63480 — J. Adams — 2012-10-17T00:22:53+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/63478#63480 · In reply to: #63479 I agree. VBulletin rules. It also permits voluntary participation rather than getting every email for ever conversation. Should you prefer to get everything via email, I believe it is possible to sync VBulletin with a mailing list. > I may sound old fashioned, but what about a forum? > > > > > […] --- ## #63481 — Yahav Gindi Bar — 2012-10-17T00:26:06+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/63478#63481 · In reply to: #63480 Personally, I like IP.Board. Put that aside, I thought about PHPBB or another open-source software :) > I agree. VBulletin rules. It also permits voluntary participation rather > than getting every email for ever conversation. Should you prefer to get > everything via email, I believe it is possible to sync VBulletin with a > mailing list. > > > > > > > […] --- ## #63482 — Jan Ehrhardt — 2012-10-17T01:00:07+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/63478#63482 · In reply to: #63479 Yahav Gindi Bar in php.internals (Wed, 17 Oct 2012 03:18:12 +0300): >I may sound old fashioned, but what about a forum? A forum is new fashioned. I am reading and writing this on news.php.net. Webinterface: http://news.php.net/php.internals But you'd better use a proper newsreader. Some browsers have one built-in: nntp://news.php.net/php.internals Jan --- ## #63483 — Clint Priest — 2012-10-17T03:34:22+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/63478#63483 · In reply to: #63482 I was thinking more along the lines of a collaborative wiki with inline-threaded comments... > -----Original Message----- > From: Jan Ehrhardt [mailto:phpdev@ehrhardt.nl] > Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2012 8:00 PM > To: internals@lists.php.net > Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Alternatives to mailing list? > > Yahav Gindi Bar in php.internals (Wed, 17 Oct 2012 03:18:12 +0300): > > […] > > A forum is new fashioned. I am reading and writing this on news.php.net. > Webinterface: http://news.php.net/php.internals > > But you'd better use a proper newsreader. Some browsers have one > built-in: nntp://news.php.net/php.internals > > Jan --- ## #63485 — Kris Craig — 2012-10-17T08:04:45+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/63478#63485 · In reply to: #63483 > I was thinking more along the lines of a collaborative wiki with > inline-threaded comments... > > > […] > > I agree that having a forum would have some definite benefits and should be explored further. The only caveat I'd add is that it should not be used as a replacement for the listserv. The problem with forums is that most registered users don't check it regularly. This can lead to obvious communication problems. A listserv, on the other hand, rarely suffers from this because people are far more likely to check their email inbox frequently and consistently. The convenience factor with regard to replies/etc is also apparent. That said, I do believe we have a bit of a problem with threads getting scattered due to slight changes in the subject text. The Property Accessors thread, in particular, is a bit of a nightmare to navigate. Perhaps what we need is a listserv with smarter digest options and a full, forum-like UI. For example, when you subscribe to a list, you can have the option of receiving only the first x number of messages via email, after which you'll just get a one-shot link to the forum thread for further reading. Another useful feature could be the creation of user-created temporary lists. For example, if there's an RFC thread that's extremely active but only of interest to the few people who are participating in it, they could move the discussion to a new list that would only exist for some defined period of time (preset, while active, etc). Of course, those would all have to be custom solutions most likely. But in an ideal world at least, that's how it would look I think. ---Kris --- ## #63486 — Pierre Joye — 2012-10-17T08:17:43+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/63478#63486 · In reply to: #63478 hi, To all readers of this exact thread. No, we won't install a forum on php.net or nowhere else to discuss php.net issues. We have mailing lists, and it works well. We also do IRC discussions and post summaries here from time to time, but that's somehow a personal matter. Please keep focus on the topic threads and try to update the RFC accordingly (before the code, actually much more easier than now where the code does not match the RFC, creating too much WTF for real good feedback). Also keep the discussions constructive, avoid repeating the same arguments over and over again without adding anything good to the topic. Thanks for your understanding, efforts and work! > Is it just me or has this Property Accessors chain of emails been impossible to make heads or tails of? People replying within replies within replies, quoting partial emails, cross-posting and all sorts of chaos. > > Would anyone be willing to entertain an alternative "communication method" with specific respect to building/refining an RFC or fleshing out an idea? > > Heck, I think even live chat meeting over IRC would beat what's been going on... > > Not saying abandon the mailing list, it's crucial, but when there gets to be 150+ emails on one subject and numerous sub-subjects it just seems inefficient at best and chaos at its worst... > > I don't know of anything offhand that would work well but I'd be willing to try and find something we could try out. > > -Clint -- Pierre @pierrejoye | http://blog.thepimp.net | http://www.libgd.org --- ## #63487 — Lester Caine — 2012-10-17T09:21:44+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/63478#63487 · In reply to: #63483 Clint Priest wrote: > I was thinking more along the lines of a collaborative wiki with inline-threaded comments... Actually just using the wiki better would work, but it tends to get even more messy without someone moderating everything. I know people don't like my stance, but when one is supporting 15+ year old systems that people just expect to work, strange messages popping up because someone has upgraded a machine cause panic. 'Mailing list' with it's parallel news feed is a good stable archaic method that just works, and forums that do not provide a PROPER mail link are an utter pain. I'm on a few lists where things have been improved by 'moving to a forum' ... and the majority of the users are still on the mailing list! github's issues area is another backward step 'improvement', trying to track bugs across several repos ( pear, php-src and the like ) are just impossible and when the repos are modules of the one project ... In the case of the current discussions, a LOT of edge cases have been pointed out, and yes it is difficult to track them in the discussions. SO what is needed is a wiki page which lists them all? I seem to recall a list of several items that were being proposed as the skeleton for a new rework, some of which were disputed, at which point a separate wiki page would be appropriate. Stas listed some 11 points which marry up with that list but the answers get messy and disjointed. Given the nature of the problem, several pages on the wiki does not seem inappropriate and will make discussions more focused. -- Lester Caine - G8HFL ----------------------------- Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk --- ## #63489 — Pierre Joye — 2012-10-17T09:43:29+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/63478#63489 · In reply to: #63487 hi, > Clint Priest wrote: > > […] > > Actually just using the wiki better would work, but it tends to get even > more messy without someone moderating everything. > > I know people don't like my stance, but when one is supporting 15+ year old > systems that people just expect to work, strange messages popping up because > someone has upgraded a machine cause panic. It is not about your 15 years old systems, we all have that and really, they don't dictate what PHP should be today or tomorrow. It is about hi jacking discussions with totally irrelevant topics, repetitive, nonconstructive posts in rows, in all possible ways. Please simply and immediately stop that. Thanks. Cheers. -- Pierre @pierrejoye | http://blog.thepimp.net | http://www.libgd.org --- ## #63498 — Clint Priest — 2012-10-17T11:11:46+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/63478#63498 · In reply to: #63489 That would be a big help, when there are 14 topics brought up in a single email, it generates 24 - 36 replies. I tried to separate the topics with new email threads but that led to cross-topic issues as well. > -----Original Message----- > From: Pierre Joye [mailto:pierre.php@gmail.com] > Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 4:43 AM > To: Lester Caine > Cc: internals@lists.php.net > Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Alternatives to mailing list? > > hi, > > > > […] > > It is not about your 15 years old systems, we all have that and really, they don't dictate what PHP should be today or tomorrow. It is > about hi jacking discussions with totally irrelevant topics, repetitive, nonconstructive posts in rows, in all possible ways. > Please simply and immediately stop that. Thanks. > > Cheers. > -- > Pierre > > @pierrejoye | http://blog.thepimp.net | http://www.libgd.org --- ## #63508 — Jeremiah Dodds — 2012-10-17T17:02:23+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/63478#63508 · In reply to: #63486 (sorry if this is a double-post, I finger-fudged pretty hard) Pierre Joye writes: > hi, > > To all readers of this exact thread. No, we won't install a forum on > php.net or nowhere else to discuss php.net issues. We have mailing > lists, and it works well. Just to throw in the opinion of someone who lurks this list and rarely, if ever, posts -- it can be frustrating when communities split up their "threaded" communications. Communities with separate forums and mailing lists often end up with the same info posted in differente places, and if you're looking for information, or looking to try to help people, you have to check in a bunch of places -- and that's after knowing what those places are. I can understand the frustration people have over reading lists in email readers, one solution to that is for them to use something that knows how to handle USENET, a sane reader doesn't make viewing giant threaded discussions a pain. That said, it's a little ridiculous to expect people to figure out a new reader or whatever. Luckily, forums are jut a web version of USENET. There are a few existing tools that take a mailing list and mirror it to a web-based forum and vice-versa, and it makes a lot of sense -- different frontends for the same set of data. It might make sense to consider setting up something like groupserver[1] for the existing lists, I'm not familiar with your setup, so I don't know if that would be more pain than it's worth. Footnotes: [1] http://groupserver.org/ -- Jeremiah Dodds blog : http://jdodds.github.com github : https://github.com/jdodds freenode/skype : exhortatory twitter : kaens --- ## #63509 — keisial@gmail.com — 2012-10-17T18:26:55+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/63478#63509 · In reply to: #63489 > It is about hi jacking discussions with totally irrelevant topics, > repetitive, nonconstructive posts in rows, in all possible ways. The issue is that the proposed solution (a forum) does not solve irrelevant topics being mixed into a discussion about a different topic. It can be even worse, since many forums are single-threaded, and I haven't seem a threaded forum with good usability. Using a mailing list it *can* be done efficiently. Changing subjects when appropiate, not breaking the threads, etc. (Plus usage of smart tools, as has already been mentioned). But it needs the people participating in the discussion to collaborate in that. In the end, it is a social problem. --- ## #63510 — Pierre Joye — 2012-10-17T18:42:45+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/63478#63510 · In reply to: #63508 On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 7:02 PM, Jeremiah Dodds wrote: > That said, it's a little ridiculous to expect people to figure out a new > reader or whatever. Luckily, forums are jut a web version of > USENET. There are a few existing tools that take a mailing list and > mirror it to a web-based forum and vice-versa, and it makes a lot of > sense -- different frontends for the same set of data. http:.//news.php.net, which is the web frontend to view mail posts, nttp is supported too (did not try for a while but.. :) -- Pierre @pierrejoye | http://blog.thepimp.net | http://www.libgd.org --- ## #63511 — Jeremiah Dodds — 2012-10-17T18:53:23+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/63478#63511 · In reply to: #63510 Pierre Joye writes: > On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 7:02 PM, Jeremiah Dodds > wrote: > > > […] > > http:.//news.php.net, which is the web frontend to view mail posts, > nttp is supported too (did not try for a while but.. :) Sure, but that's a read-only interface. -- Jeremiah Dodds blog : http://jdodds.github.com github : https://github.com/jdodds freenode/skype : exhortatory twitter : kaens --- ## #63512 — Maciek Sokolewicz — 2012-10-17T19:07:00+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/63478#63512 · In reply to: #63510 > On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 7:02 PM, Jeremiah Dodds > wrote: > > > […] > > http:.//news.php.net, which is the web frontend to view mail posts, > nttp is supported too (did not try for a while but.. :) > > NNTP works great! The only pain in the ass is that it's hellishly slow and very very often times out, making the reading of longer threads (like this one) take... ages... Perhaps it could be mirrored / load distributed as well? Daniel? - Tul --- ## #63514 — Daniel Brown — 2012-10-17T19:41:32+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/63478#63514 · In reply to: #63512 On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 3:07 PM, Maciek Sokolewicz wrote: > > NNTP works great! The only pain in the ass is that it's hellishly slow and > very very often times out, making the reading of longer threads (like this > one) take... ages... > Perhaps it could be mirrored / load distributed as well? Daniel? You know, that's been on the back-burner for about two years. I guess it is time to finally get off my duff and do something about it. I'll try to set up a public-access news server this week or next, and use news.php.net just for master distribution and internal stuff. I always get sidetracked, though, so feel free to poke and prod me on this one. -- Network Infrastructure Manager http://www.php.net/ --- ## #63515 — Clint Priest — 2012-10-17T20:01:04+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/63478#63515 I was really referring to another tool to collaborate on an RFC document, something where comment threads can be started and replied to from within the context/section of the RFC that the comment belongs to. Ive looked at a few other wikis and some have this capability... Github could be close but the tools aren't in place for wikis. -Clint > On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 3:07 PM, Maciek Sokolewicz > wrote: > > […] > > You know, that's been on the back-burner for about two years. I > guess it is time to finally get off my duff and do something about it. > I'll try to set up a public-access news server this week or next, and > use news.php.net just for master distribution and internal stuff. > > I always get sidetracked, though, so feel free to poke and prod me > on this one. > > -- > > Network Infrastructure Manager > http://www.php.net/ --- ## #63553 — Derick Rethans — 2012-10-20T09:31:30+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/63478#63553 · In reply to: #63480 > I agree. VBulletin rules. It also permits voluntary participation rather than > getting every email for ever conversation. Should you prefer to get everything > via email, I believe it is possible to sync VBulletin with a mailing list. If everybody would just follow our mailinglist guidelines (which f.e. says: No top-posting) it wouldn't be such a mess. Let me once more refer to: http://uk.php.net/reST/README.MAILINGLIST_RULES cheers, Derick -- http://derickrethans.nl | http://xdebug.org Like Xdebug? Consider a donation: http://xdebug.org/donate.php twitter: @derickr and @xdebug Posted with an email client that doesn't mangle email: alpine