# PHP as a template language - Thread: https://externals.io/message/59361 - Original archive: https://news-web.php.net/php.internals/59361 - Started by sunseb@live.com on 2012-04-06T02:55:03+00:00 - Messages: 22 - Reply by email to internals@lists.php.net - More for agents: search with https://externals.io/search.md?q={query} · JSON API at https://externals.io/api · documentation at https://externals.io/llms.txt --- ## #59361 — sunseb@live.com — 2012-04-06T02:55:03+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/59361#59361 IMHO, PHP is a great template language. This is what makes it so simple and powerful, compared to other web languages. So far, we have " > > […] > > It is well past April 1. Here's Rasmus proposing 2. 3. 4. <% code %> 5. (1) and (3) combined using some fancy hard-to-code scanner with dedicated XML support. 6. 7. <_ code _> 8. <: code :> 9. << code >> 10. 11. 12. <[ code ]> 13. <{ code }> Anyway, just a brief out-of-context look at the past. Woot! Regards, Philip --- ## #59364 — Reindl Harald — 2012-04-06T08:03:54+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/59361#59364 · In reply to: #59361 Am 06.04.2012 04:55, schrieb Sébatien Durand: > IMHO, PHP is a great template language. This is what makes it so simple > and powerful, compared to other web languages. > > So far, we have " > A suggestion : deprecate these old tags and replace them with a more > elegant and a shorter implementation. > > For example : "<%" and "<%=" or "{%" and "{{" ? > > What do you think, guys ? that you calendar is broken (april 1st is over) or it was not an april joke that i never will understand people proposing changes only for the sake of the change --- ## #59370 — John Crenshaw — 2012-04-06T19:05:04+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/59361#59370 · In reply to: #59361 > -----Original Message----- > From: Sébatien Durand [mailto:sunseb@live.com] > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2012 10:55 PM > To: internals@lists.php.net > Subject: [PHP-DEV] PHP as a template language > > IMHO, PHP is a great template language. This is what makes it so simple and powerful, compared to other web languages. > > So far, we have " > A suggestion : deprecate these old tags and replace them with a more elegant and a shorter implementation. > > For example : "<%" and "<%=" or "{%" and "{{" ? > > What do you think, guys ? Honestly this is the wrong question. PHP as a template language has much larger problems than this. The difference between however is 56 characters, security, and encoding bugs. Proper handling of output escaping is standard in modern template languages. The question shouldn't be "should we add a cooler short tag?". The question should be "What needs to be done to make PHP an industry leader in template languages again?". My two cents, John Crenshaw Priacta, Inc. --- ## #59371 — Tom Boutell — 2012-04-06T21:19:18+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/59361#59371 · In reply to: #59370 I have to agree with that. Also: does PHP need to be a templating language anymore, given excellent templating language implementations in PHP, like Twig? > > […] > > Honestly this is the wrong question. PHP as a template language has much larger problems than this. The difference between however is 56 characters, security, and encoding bugs. > > Proper handling of output escaping is standard in modern template languages. The question shouldn't be "should we add a cooler short tag?". The question should be "What needs to be done to make PHP an industry leader in template languages again?". > > My two cents, > > John Crenshaw > Priacta, Inc. > > -- > > > -- Tom Boutell P'unk Avenue 215 755 1330 punkave.com window.punkave.com --- ## #59372 — Tom Boutell — 2012-04-06T21:20:36+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/59361#59372 · In reply to: #59371 To tell the truth I'd be more excited by a proposal to kill I have to agree with that. Also: does PHP need to be a templating > language anymore, given excellent templating language implementations > in PHP, like Twig? > > > > […] > > > > -- > Tom Boutell > P'unk Avenue > 215 755 1330 > punkave.com > window.punkave.com -- Tom Boutell P'unk Avenue 215 755 1330 punkave.com window.punkave.com --- ## #59373 — Reindl Harald — 2012-04-06T21:25:47+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/59361#59373 · In reply to: #59372 what exactly is your problem? having solution searching problem? what are people like you try to achieve? what would make you happy in breaking BC? what would you make happy generate lot of work for others? what would be better for anybody? change for the sake of the change is blindly stupid Am 06.04.2012 23:20, schrieb Tom Boutell: > To tell the truth I'd be more excited by a proposal to kill entirely, or more realistically, to support an alternate file > extension that doesn't need it. That would be an interesting option > for those who want to put "dribs and drabs of PHP sprinkled in HTML" > completely behind them. > > > > […] > > > -- Mit besten Grüßen, Reindl Harald the lounge interactive design GmbH A-1060 Vienna, Hofmühlgasse 17 CTO / software-development / cms-solutions p: +43 (1) 595 3999 33, m: +43 (676) 40 221 40 icq: 154546673, http://www.thelounge.net/ http://www.thelounge.net/signature.asc.what.htm --- ## #59374 — Tom Boutell — 2012-04-06T21:30:10+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/59361#59374 · In reply to: #59373 Knock it off with the ad-hominem attacks please. It's not "change for the sake of change" to propose that PHP move on from needing what exactly is your problem? > having solution searching problem? > > what are people like you try to achieve? > what would make you happy in breaking BC? > what would you make happy generate lot of work for others? > what would be better for anybody? > > change for the sake of the change is blindly stupid > > Am 06.04.2012 23:20, schrieb Tom Boutell: > > […] > > -- > > Mit besten Grüßen, Reindl Harald > the lounge interactive design GmbH > A-1060 Vienna, Hofmühlgasse 17 > CTO / software-development / cms-solutions > p: +43 (1) 595 3999 33, m: +43 (676) 40 221 40 > icq: 154546673, http://www.thelounge.net/ > > http://www.thelounge.net/signature.asc.what.htm > -- Tom Boutell P'unk Avenue 215 755 1330 punkave.com window.punkave.com --- ## #59375 — Tom Boutell — 2012-04-06T21:30:45+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/59361#59375 · In reply to: #59374 I should have said "breaking mysteriously in weird subtle ways if there are blank lines before Knock it off with the ad-hominem attacks please. It's not "change for > the sake of change" to propose that PHP move on from needing the stop of every class file (and breaking mysteriously in weird > subtle ways if it's missing, due to unneeded whitespace being output) > and recognize that it's a modern language in which you don't mix > unparsed HTML with source code. Especially since I suggested offering > this feature when an alternate file extension is used, to make bc > possible. Your attitude discourages participation. > > > > […] > > > > -- > Tom Boutell > P'unk Avenue > 215 755 1330 > punkave.com > window.punkave.com -- Tom Boutell P'unk Avenue 215 755 1330 punkave.com window.punkave.com --- ## #59376 — Reindl Harald — 2012-04-06T21:39:10+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/59361#59376 · In reply to: #59374 Am 06.04.2012 23:30, schrieb Tom Boutell: > Knock it off with the ad-hominem attacks please. what do you expect by propose work for many people > It's not "change for the sake of change" to propose that PHP move on from > needing (and breaking mysteriously in weird > subtle ways if it's missing, due to unneeded whitespace being output) why are you making this whitespaces? fix your editor or get an IDE removing them at save > and recognize that it's a modern language in which you don't mix > unparsed HTML with source code. you are not in the position to dictate how people are working there are differences between projects, classes and rapid-development and thousands of good reasons using > […] > > Right, workarounds forever, nothing should be fixed at the source. what is a workaround in not make useless whitespaces? where is your feature request to remove shebang of bash-scripts and where is your whining that the are not woring with windows-linebreaks > > […] > > You'll note I acknowledged bc is necessary. But you don't seem to be > able to stop yelling anyway. yes, i am not able to stop calling people to lazy writing > […] > > Thousands of good reasons to get pwn3d by XSS attacks! Yay! it is not the problem of the scripting-language that idiots do not sanitize their variables do you believe echo $var; is protected by god himself or what let you imagine there is any difference? > > […] > > That's a valid point. So the cli gets a default behavior based on > extension (and options to remap it), and FPM and mod_php get options > so you can configure them to do the right thing. what is the right thing? gining another config-choic e to make every script on different hosting-providers more and more a gambling machine because you never know if you should write yur code with This wouldn't be an easy one and perhaps it's not practical, but > that's no reason to be venomous. yes it is not practical so please leave the world in peace with your theory and take whatever language you want if your are not staisfied with the oprinciples of PHP --- ## #59380 — John Crenshaw — 2012-04-06T22:17:06+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/59361#59380 · In reply to: #59379 > yes, i am not able to stop calling people to lazy writing > > Am 06.04.2012 23:54, schrieb Tom Boutell: > > […] > > the "who" in such cases are ALL developers out there damned > can i send you the invoice for my time if your ideas > would be realizedß if no shut up! > Why is it every single time I see your name in the discussions here it is shortly followed by hostile personal attacks. Do you have no idea how to maintain a level of professionalism when interacting with the opinions and ideas of other developers? Does your company, http://www.thelounge.net/ represent itself in this way? If I was a prospecting customer who had a idea for a relevant technology venture and was willing to pay for it would I receive personal attacks for mentioning something you disagree with? Why don't you act not just like a industry professional, but a decent human being when you talk to people. --- ## #59382 — Reindl Harald — 2012-04-06T23:42:20+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/59361#59382 · In reply to: #59381 Am 07.04.2012 01:30, schrieb Chris Stockton: > Hello, > > > > […] > > Why is it every single time I see your name in the discussions here it > is shortly followed by hostile personal attacks. maybe because i do not comment every and each post out in this world - only the one which would make hughe damage in most existing applications? > Do you have no idea how to maintain a level of professionalism when > interacting with the opinions and ideas of other developers? i have ideas how to do so but i learned over many years that people do not understand that they ahve really bad ideas if you say freindly "not a godd idea" > Does your company, http://www.thelounge.net/ represent itself in this > way? If I was a prospecting customer who had a idea for a relevant > technology venture and was willing to pay for it would I receive > personal attacks for mentioning something you disagree with? does the OP with they idea dropping Why don't you act not just like a industry professional, but a decent > human being when you talk to people because i saw way too much useless changes in too much software stacks, mostly with poor quality and less benefit the last years proposed and done by bored people only for the sake of the change? BTW: is your "reply to list" broken or why using "reply all"? --- ## #59386 — John Crenshaw — 2012-04-07T01:10:24+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/59361#59386 · In reply to: #59382 -----Original Message----- From: Reindl Harald [mailto:h.reindl@thelounge.net] > Am 07.04.2012 01:30, schrieb Chris Stockton: > > […] > > maybe because i do not comment every and each post out in this world - only > the one which would make hughe damage in most existing applications? Seriously, if you're so angry that you can't even type straight you should take a break before responding. Any argument delivered like this won't be well received anyway. Take a break, find your place of zen, respond when you can be civil. > > […] > > i have ideas how to do so > > but i learned over many years that people do not understand that they have > really bad ideas if you say freindly "not a godd idea" Wow. I'm honestly shocked. That's the crux of it isn't it? Trouble is that this sort of response violates the rules of the mailing list; rules that we all agreed to. It also isn't going to go over well with the type of people you have here. This is not a productive communication tactic, this is bullying. If you are unwilling to be civil and rational I have to ask, why are you even here? John Crenshaw Priacta, Inc. --- ## #59389 — sunseb@live.com — 2012-04-07T04:53:33+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/59361#59389 · In reply to: #59372 Thank you for your answers. I didn't want to create flaming. PHP is already damn good. I have tried Ruby/ROR, Python/Django, but I still prefer the flow of PHP. I personally like mixing PHP/HTML. It's not bad. It allows us to work with simplicity. For example : http://tinyurl.com/cyrlchw "Details make perfection and perfection is not a detail." (Leonardo da Vinci) But I was not completely aware of the level of change/break my suggestion will cause. I'm grateful the work you do. It was just a usability/cosmetic remark of a daily PHP user. I can live with it. ;-) Tom Boutell wrote: > To tell the truth I'd be more excited by a proposal to kill entirely, or more realistically, to support an alternate file > extension that doesn't need it. That would be an interesting option > for those who want to put "dribs and drabs of PHP sprinkled in HTML" > completely behind them. > > > > […] --- ## #59390 — Charlie Somerville — 2012-04-07T05:58:53+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/59361#59390 · In reply to: #59389 April fools was 6 days ago ;) > I personally like mixing PHP/HTML. It's not bad. It allows us to work with > simplicity. For example : http://tinyurl.com/cyrlchw > > Tom Boutell wrote: > > > […] --- ## #59391 — Lester Caine — 2012-04-07T07:11:17+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/59361#59391 · In reply to: #59389 Sébatien Durand wrote: > But I was not completely aware of the level of change/break my suggestion > will cause. > > I'm grateful the work you do. It was just a usability/cosmetic remark of a > daily PHP user. I can live with it. You have to bear in mind that many of us have many years of code base invested in PHP and even the 'improvements' that do get through are just major drains on a rare resource - time! There IS nothing wrong with PHP that was written 10 years ago and many sites just never get updated. Heck PHP4 IS still running in the field. My own view is that many of the current 'developments' are more to make the language 'compiler friendly' and don't have a place when running the code live. Fixing the support would eliminate many of the 'complaints' rather than loading PHP up with checks that don't add anything to generating a html page ... which is the only place PHP should be targeting ... from my point of view. Anything else ... use a more suitable language in the first place? -- Lester Caine - G8HFL ----------------------------- Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php --- ## #59438 — Maciek Sokolewicz — 2012-04-07T19:07:13+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/59361#59438 · In reply to: #59386 > Seriously, if you're so angry that you can't even type straight you should take a break before responding. Any argument delivered like this won't be well received anyway. Take a break, find your place of zen, respond when you can be civil. > > > […] > > Wow. I'm honestly shocked. That's the crux of it isn't it? Trouble is that this sort of response violates the rules of the mailing list; rules that we all agreed to. It also isn't going to go over well with the type of people you have here. This is not a productive communication tactic, this is bullying. If you are unwilling to be civil and rational I have to ask, why are you even here? > > John Crenshaw > Priacta, Inc. John, I completely agree with you. I would like to urge Reindl to please, PLEASE, reconsider your response, at least once, preferably even more often, before posting it. In this thread alone, you have personally attacked Tom Boutell for no good reason. Your responses were generally very very rude, and may easily (and in my opinion rightfuly so) be considered personal attacks. Again, I urge you to reconsider posting such messages. The rules of conduct on these mailinglists include section on exactly this. They are there to remind us all to be civil. We do not attack eachother in the way you do. Instead, you may politely state your view, but do not yell, scream, or try to force your views on others. I would suggest you reread what you have posted, and try to imagine what it would look like from other reader's points of view. Personally I felt very unpleasant reading your responses. I was hoping it would be a one-time-only post, born from anger on a bad day, and that it would be followed by an apology. Unfortunately, you continued posting this way. I am sorry I had to write this. But I feel we should all stand up for eachother. > To tell the truth I'd be more excited by a proposal to kill entirely, or more realistically, to support an alternate file > extension that doesn't need it. That would be an interesting option > for those who want to put "dribs and drabs of PHP sprinkled in HTML" > completely behind them. Tom: I agree with your point. I think it would be nice to be able to create PHP codefiles which do not require the wrote: > > > Seriously, if you're so angry that you can't even type straight you > > […] > > John, I completely agree with you. I would like to urge Reindl to please, > PLEASE, reconsider your response, at least once, preferably even more > often, before posting it. In this thread alone, you have personally > attacked Tom Boutell for no good reason. Your responses were generally very > very rude, and may easily (and in my opinion rightfuly so) be considered > personal attacks. > > Again, I urge you to reconsider posting such messages. The rules of > conduct on these mailinglists include section on exactly this. They are > there to remind us all to be civil. We do not attack eachother in the way > you do. Instead, you may politely state your view, but do not yell, scream, > or try to force your views on others. > > I would suggest you reread what you have posted, and try to imagine what > it would look like from other reader's points of view. Personally I felt > very unpleasant reading your responses. I was hoping it would be a > one-time-only post, born from anger on a bad day, and that it would be > followed by an apology. Unfortunately, you continued posting this way. > > I am sorry I had to write this. But I feel we should all stand up for > eachother. > > To tell the truth I'd be more excited by a proposal to kill > […] > > Tom: I agree with your point. I think it would be nice to be able to > create PHP codefiles which do not require the just be a nice-to-have thing, and not really that important, since I'm not > that bothered by using > Just my $0.02, > - Tul