# Time zone database shut down by legal threat - Thread: https://externals.io/message/55714 - Original archive: https://news-web.php.net/php.internals/55714 - Started by david.zuelke@bitextender.com on 2011-10-06T22:24:16+00:00 - Messages: 13 - Reply by email to internals@lists.php.net - More for agents: search with https://externals.io/search.md?q={query} · JSON API at https://externals.io/api · documentation at https://externals.io/llms.txt --- ## #55714 — david.zuelke@bitextender.com — 2011-10-06T22:24:16+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/55714#55714 FYI: http://blog.joda.org/2011/10/today-time-zone-database-was-closed.html This could impact PHP as well since it bundles the database. David P.S. I hope Google/IBM/Oracle/whoever just buys those guys and then fires everyone. --- ## #55716 — Chris Stockton — 2011-10-07T01:53:58+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/55714#55716 Hello, > Perhaps we could all contact Astrolabe and voice our complaints? > > http://alabe.com/ > Not sure how copyright can apply to time? If so put me in for copyright on Mondays.. once I own them I can get rid of them forever! But really, I believe the claim seems to have little ground to stand on in. -Chris --- ## #55717 — Larry Garfield — 2011-10-07T02:34:25+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/55714#55717 · In reply to: #55716 > Hello, > > > > […] > > Not sure how copyright can apply to time? If so put me in for > copyright on Mondays.. once I own them I can get rid of them forever! > But really, I believe the claim seems to have little ground to stand > on in. > > -Chris It doesn't, but under DMCA rules if someone sends you a takedown notice then you're guilty until proven innocent; and if you're an intermediary host, you can make yourself immune to prosecution by taking down an allegedly infringing work immediately, without bothering to check to see if the claim is bogus or not. It's a wonderful world we live in. --Larry Garfield --- ## #55718 — John Crenshaw — 2011-10-07T03:06:52+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/55714#55718 > From: J. Adams [mailto:zardozrocks@gmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2011 7:46 PM > Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Time zone database shut down by legal threat > > Perhaps we could all contact Astrolabe and voice our complaints? > > http://alabe.com/ Wow, someone from PR should have really sent a memo that martyring an open source hero is a terrible idea. Their email address is astrolabe@alabe.com. I've sent mine. Let the angry flood begin. Also, if anyone cares, you can read the full complaint at http://www.scribd.com/doc/67760407/ASTROLABE-INC-Vs-ARTHUR-DAVID-OLSON-and-PAUL-EGGERT-Complaint. John Crenshaw Priacta, Inc. --- ## #55721 — Pierre Joye — 2011-10-07T08:16:38+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/55714#55721 · In reply to: #55718 hi, > > […] > > Wow, someone from PR should have really sent a memo that martyring an open source hero is a terrible idea. > > Their email address is astrolabe@alabe.com. I've sent mine. Let the angry flood begin. > > Also, if anyone cares, you can read the full complaint at http://www.scribd.com/doc/67760407/ASTROLABE-INC-Vs-ARTHUR-DAVID-OLSON-and-PAUL-EGGERT-Complaint. While it sounds funny to do, please do not use this mailing list to call for a bomb mail action. Thanks for your understanding. Cheers, -- Pierre @pierrejoye | http://blog.thepimp.net | http://www.libgd.org --- ## #55726 — Derick Rethans — 2011-10-07T10:44:00+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/55714#55726 · In reply to: #55714 > FYI: http://blog.joda.org/2011/10/today-time-zone-database-was-closed.html > > This could impact PHP as well since it bundles the database. We don't actually bundle the database as rules. Instead, we bundle a compiled version of that, and the original rules do not remain in what we bundle. Not sure whether that means it impacts us or not, and I will not be making any comments about that. Derick --- ## #55727 — Lester Caine — 2011-10-07T11:18:37+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/55714#55727 · In reply to: #55726 Derick Rethans wrote: > > […] > We don't actually bundle the database as rules. Instead, we bundle a > compiled version of that, and the original rules do not remain in what > we bundle. Not sure whether that means it impacts us or not, and I will > not be making any comments about that. Unfortunately if the courts rule that the data is not public domain, then any use of it would be blocked and liable to license claims? It is the current block on making any future updates to the data which is a problem that will need to be addressed at some point? So ignoring the problem is not really practical :( -- Lester Caine - G8HFL ----------------------------- Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php --- ## #55728 — Pierre Joye — 2011-10-07T11:26:00+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/55714#55728 · In reply to: #55727 hi Lester, See the blog post itself for more information. They create a mailing list to create an alternative database but not to argue about the legal case. I would suggest to discuss things there instead. Cheers, > Derick Rethans wrote: > > […] > > Unfortunately if the courts rule that the data is not public domain, then > any use of it would be blocked and liable to license claims? It is the > current block on making any future updates to the data which is a problem > that will need to be addressed at some point? So ignoring the problem is not > really practical :( > > -- > Lester Caine - G8HFL > ----------------------------- > Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact > L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk > EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ > Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// > Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php > > -- > > > > -- Pierre @pierrejoye | http://blog.thepimp.net | http://www.libgd.org --- ## #55729 — Lester Caine — 2011-10-07T12:14:38+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/55714#55729 · In reply to: #55728 Pierre Joye wrote: > See the blog post itself for more information. They create a mailing > list to create an alternative database but not to argue about the > legal case. I would suggest to discuss things there instead. I had no doubt that the data would continue to exist, and it has been confirmed that it will be updated on the Australian site. The remaining question is "Is there any problem using that data to update the PHP version?" Since there are apparently already a number of corrections in the pipeline ... ;) -- Lester Caine - G8HFL ----------------------------- Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php --- ## #55730 — Derick Rethans — 2011-10-07T13:55:20+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/55714#55730 · In reply to: #55727 > Derick Rethans wrote: > > […] > > Unfortunately if the courts rule that the data is not public domain, > then any use of it would be blocked and liable to license claims? It > is the current block on making any future updates to the data which is > a problem that will need to be addressed at some point? So ignoring > the problem is not really practical :( The TZ database maintenance is/was in the process of being put under the IANA as DAO is going on retirement soon. In that light, a new ML has already been set-up where the timezone database is now being maintained. New versions of the database will come out as usual, and we'll update PHP with those new database rules. cheers, Derick -- http://derickrethans.nl | http://xdebug.org Like Xdebug? Consider a donation: http://xdebug.org/donate.php twitter: @derickr and @xdebug --- ## #55731 — Philip Olson — 2011-10-07T15:05:16+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/55714#55731 · In reply to: #55714 > FYI: http://blog.joda.org/2011/10/today-time-zone-database-was-closed.html > > This could impact PHP as well since it bundles the database. > > David > > P.S. I hope Google/IBM/Oracle/whoever just buys those guys and then fires everyone. I spent this past week correlating PHP release dates and version numbers with celestial alignments, and can now guarantee that this lawsuit will implode immediately before the upcoming Uranus at Opposition event. Therefore, we are safe. Regards, A fellow Olson --- ## #55732 — J. Adams — 2011-10-07T15:14:55+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/55714#55732 · In reply to: #55730 Is the IANA tz database subject to the same constraints as the old one? If so, it may be subject to the same legal constraints. I believe it would be wise to seek some quality legal advice on the issue. I have tried to contact the Free Software Foundation and the EFF just to see what they might say. I'll pass on anything interesting. > > > > […] > The TZ database maintenance is/was in the process of being put under the > IANA as DAO is going on retirement soon. In that light, a new ML has > already been set-up where the timezone database is now being maintained. > New versions of the database will come out as usual, and we'll update > PHP with those new database rules. > > cheers, > Derick --- ## #55758 — John Crenshaw — 2011-10-08T18:29:08+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/55714#55758 · In reply to: #55729 > From: Lester Caine [mailto:lester@lsces.co.uk] > Sent: Friday, October 07, 2011 8:15 AM > Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Time zone database shut down by legal threat > > Pierre Joye wrote: > > […] > > I had no doubt that the data would continue to exist, and it has been confirmed > that it will be updated on the Australian site. The remaining question is "Is > there any problem using that data to update the PHP version?" Since there are > apparently already a number of corrections in the pipeline ... ;) > > -- > Lester Caine - G8HFL IANAL but yes, if the copyright claim is determined to be valid I'm sure they could go after anyone else that continues to reproduce it (using the Olsen database or a derivative in a software product like PHP or Linux would certainly apply.) If for some reason this holds up in court, I would not be at all surprised to see them go after a larger (more lucrative) target next. Also, as far as I understand willful copyright violation (you knew about the copyright claim and reproduced the work anyway) is a much more expensive mistake than something less deliberate. The safest thing for PHP is probably to immediately stop bundling the Olsen database or derivatives until this issue is sorted. Since that isn't really possible or practical, I think a next best option would be to (at least for now) remove the portion of the data that is in dispute (as far as I understand this is just historical pre-1991 US TZ data?). I'm not sure what impact this has on distribution of current and/or previous versions of PHP but I worry that it isn't pretty. Obviously the issue is big enough that legal counsel should be involved if possible. John Crenshaw Priacta, Inc.