# [VOTE] Choosing a distributed version control system for PHP - Thread: https://externals.io/message/54892 - Original archive: https://news-web.php.net/php.internals/54892 - Started by David Soria Parra on 2011-08-24T21:03:47+00:00 - Messages: 37 - Page 1 of 2: messages 1 to 25 (25 per page, add `?page=N` to the URL) - Next page: https://externals.io/message/54892.md?page=2 - Reply by email to internals@lists.php.net - More for agents: search with https://externals.io/search.md?q={query} · JSON API at https://externals.io/api · documentation at https://externals.io/llms.txt --- ## #54892 — David Soria Parra — 2011-08-24T21:03:47+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/54892#54892 Hi Internals,, after 3 weeks of discussion, I think we are ready to start voting on the DVCS RFC. If you think something is missing or should be explained in more detail, let me know. Votes can be found here: https://wiki.php.net/rfc/dvcs/vote The RFC can be found here: https://wiki.php.net/rfc/dvcs Voting will be opened for 2 weeks and end on Sept. 7 at 12 pm. - David --- ## #54894 — Stas Malyshev — 2011-08-24T21:15:55+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/54892#54894 · In reply to: #54892 Hi! > Hi Internals,, > > after 3 weeks of discussion, I think we are ready to start voting on > the DVCS RFC. If you think something is missing or should be explained > in more detail, let me know. I'm not sure choosing DCVS by vote is actually a good way to go here. I think we need much more input from people that maintain all the infrastructure we're using now and would be doing the move. If we don't have people committed to making it happen majority-based vote is useless IMHO. -- Stanislav Malyshev, Software Architect SugarCRM: http://www.sugarcrm.com/ (408)454-6900 ext. 227 --- ## #54896 — David Soria Parra — 2011-08-24T21:18:56+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/54892#54896 · In reply to: #54894 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 > Hi! > > > > […] > > I'm not sure choosing DCVS by vote is actually a good way to go here. > I think we need much more input from people that maintain all the > infrastructure we're using now and would be doing the move. If we > don't have people committed to making it happen majority-based vote > is useless IMHO. Sure. I wrote the RFC because I plan to implement it. I will make it possible for either Git or Mercurial, but as stated, I prefer doing it with Mercurial. The vote is not a 100% we do it, but rather a: we would like to have it that way. So if people choose Bazaar, someone has to come up with a solution. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJOVWrAAAoJEAT0aMuPE7Z1W0EQAK59Xw/gvwLI4qhR7pZ/kuJQ d4+Qs3wP2jipZUtq+6STvZdPD1Yf9PgyM9O+nshF73VtM91gY259CQ62QrDIE/6X mKes7T+3WWdQoEbKPCBA2uYiriVT2feS9DpiZnkz8oarXgFwRy+iryEeLGxCSovt Swy0xvpM1V6zt1ZxgYMhQDKF3eJCd7K6DctKyNScwzqH2N41HFnR/bhk1ZOT172B e/qXy3Bw0k3jo6khq2bjPlAID1yecmVuHjxtx5sxX/cTkyfrUWeYcUU49BIFRHa5 ZZe9JyfO2HcTi2+V5ni097Q2FYOOV7CuLdMaZqf26L0oZIttn+3CSNTcw+77cE98 aNB9+n1vkXPBuVpyz0mZz2/BYHpX4SjPHdgmmgZHlA9xz8RRbYypyK1TraoCiVOO 86utV3+TAsat+zl4hkvbtLap0VO6/9/XuFLdkKzhjMpP+8LkXo/5/supP2oyoYrP rHNyvdiH8gV6fQQyXoikSxYaCtLrAVwoC6mc8OIIQsiT0INkB5tP5g9hbuh+uxO2 nFT5qgYDhkXbNDYG7qHFGH29ijjARcer0NYekUtnZvViC3PGQ4vEZhDvjcis8uDr LrqzD3surZJX4CLUF0i13TKiNS9S8s/orV9zdI93I18gFXf6wAPPUZJUXVLsgSic +Gir6bAS7NVZs73KtoFL =5Hhp -----END PGP SIGNATURE --- ## #54897 — Ferenc Kovacs — 2011-08-24T21:24:01+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/54892#54897 · In reply to: #54894 > Hi! > > > > […] > > I'm not sure choosing DCVS by vote is actually a good way to go here. I > think we need much more input from people that maintain all the > infrastructure we're using now and would be doing the move. If we don't have > people committed to making it happen majority-based vote is useless IMHO. I think that David is the most commited person for this cause, and currently he is the ?only? one who actually does something for the progress. -- Ferenc Kovács @Tyr43l - http://tyrael.hu --- ## #54900 — David Soria Parra — 2011-08-24T21:56:04+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/54892#54900 · In reply to: #54897 > > > […] > > I think that David is the most commited person for this cause, and > currently he is the ?only? one who actually does something for the > progress. There are people behind the scene like Gwynne, Johannes, Rasmus, Pierre and Nils Aderman from phpBB who helped. Just wanted to mention their names at least once :) --- ## #54902 — Pierre Joye — 2011-08-24T22:01:29+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/54892#54902 · In reply to: #54894 > Hi! > > > > […] > > I'm not sure choosing DCVS by vote is actually a good way to go here. I > think we need much more input from people that maintain all the > infrastructure we're using now and would be doing the move. If we don't have > people committed to making it happen majority-based vote is useless IMHO. It is the same for everything, that does not make the vote useless. About people maintaining our infrastructure, not much actually maintains svn, and that won't change anything if we move to something (except easiness) from a backup&co pov. And unlike the last time we switched to another VCS, this time we will have a clear decision process :) -- Pierre @pierrejoye | http://blog.thepimp.net | http://www.libgd.org --- ## #54904 — Lester Caine — 2011-08-24T22:46:42+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/54892#54904 · In reply to: #54896 David Soria Parra wrote: > > […] > Sure. I wrote the RFC because I plan to implement it. I will make it > possible for either Git or Mercurial, but as stated, I prefer doing it > with Mercurial. > > The vote is not a 100% we do it, but rather a: we would like to have it > that way. So if people choose Bazaar, someone has to come up with a > solution. I think the problem here is that _if_ the majority are already committed to git anyway, those of use who are using hg or something else are going to be at a disadvantage since it is now obvious that cross working will not work especially if everything is rolled into the one super repo. Even the 'decision' to roll everything into single repo copying the current SVN history _should_ be something that is put to a vote. The problems of testing _sections_ of this vast code base and tracking bugs against them should be a perfect reason for a much more modular approach so we can test each module as a separate package. And the process is something that _does_ change depending on the different DVCS's. So simply voting on the current rfc seems a little pointless at the moment? -- Lester Caine - G8HFL ----------------------------- Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php --- ## #54905 — David Soria Parra — 2011-08-24T23:03:55+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/54892#54905 · In reply to: #54904 > David Soria Parra wrote: > > […] > > I think the problem here is that _if_ the majority are already committed to git > anyway, those of use who are using hg or something else are going to be at a > disadvantage since it is now obvious that cross working will not work especially > if everything is rolled into the one super repo. Those wanting to use git and git workflows have a disadvantage when we stay with SVN. Choosing a VCS happens from time to time and sometimes your favorit is not the winner. I personally would love to see PHP moving to hg, but if more people like git more, the hg people have to deal with it. > Even the 'decision' to roll everything into single repo copying the current SVN > history _should_ be something that is put to a vote. The problems of testing > _sections_ of this vast code base and tracking bugs against them should be a > perfect reason for a much more modular approach so we can test each module as a > separate package. And the process is something that _does_ change depending on > the different DVCS's. So simply voting on the current rfc seems a little > pointless at the moment? The RFC points out that there will be modules. We will _not_ copy the current SVN history into one big repo. In fact having everything, pecl, php-src and co in one repository does not make sense. --- ## #54911 — Gwynne Raskind — 2011-08-25T02:05:33+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/54892#54911 · In reply to: #54905 > Those wanting to use git and git workflows have a disadvantage when we stay with SVN. > Choosing a VCS happens from time to time and sometimes your favorit is not the winner. > I personally would love to see PHP moving to hg, but if more people like git more, the > hg people have to deal with it. Agreed on both counts. > The RFC points out that there will be modules. We will _not_ copy the current SVN > history into one big repo. In fact having everything, pecl, php-src and co in one > repository does not make sense. The original plan called for the SVN repo to be split up at some point in the future, but DVCS gained traction and SVN went without any attempts by anyone to put a proper workflow of any kind in place. -- Gwynne --- ## #54915 — Lester Caine — 2011-08-25T06:55:07+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/54892#54915 · In reply to: #54911 Gwynne Raskind wrote: > > > […] > Agreed on both counts. It _is_ nice to see that I am not alone in preferring hg ... Sometimes it does seem that I'm in a minority of 1. > > […] > The original plan called for the SVN repo to be split up at some point > in the future, but DVCS gained traction and SVN went without any > attempts by anyone to put a proper workflow of any kind in place. And I think this is the point. With the right structure in place then it _will_ be easier for cross dvcs working. The current plan calls for all of php-src to be a single repo, with rules for moving extra modules in and out. That is the single repo I am referring to and potentially it will be as unwieldy as the libreoffice setup? It _is_ about time that splitting things up was considered in a little more detail so we can work on every module with the same ease as 'extra' extensions are now currently managed? Even the argument that one needs to see all the history at once has the alternative view that just seeing commits for a single module would be helpful? ( Note Pierre - I'm not using upper case for emphasis - I started text messaging when the printers only had upper case so I'm still learning these newfangled ways :) ) -- Lester Caine - G8HFL ----------------------------- Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php --- ## #54921 — Derick Rethans — 2011-08-25T09:15:57+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/54892#54921 · In reply to: #54894 > > > […] > > I'm not sure choosing DCVS by vote is actually a good way to go here. > I think we need much more input from people that maintain all the > infrastructure we're using now and would be doing the move. If we > don't have people committed to making it happen majority-based vote is > useless IMHO. I agree, and I also think that before people can make a choice they need to have played with all the options. Just picking "git" because that's what you heard of and what all the fan boys like is *not* the correct way to go. In order to make a choice, and even consider switching away from SVN, something that *works* just fine, you need to know the systems (ie, git and hg). cheers, Derick -- http://derickrethans.nl | http://xdebug.org Like Xdebug? Consider a donation: http://xdebug.org/donate.php twitter: @derickr and @xdebug --- ## #54922 — Ivan Enderlin @ Hoa — 2011-08-25T09:28:38+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/54892#54922 · In reply to: #54921 > > > > […] > I agree, and I also think that before people can make a choice they need > to have played with all the options. Just picking "git" because that's > what you heard of and what all the fan boys like is *not* the correct > way to go. In order to make a choice, and even consider switching away > from SVN, something that *works* just fine, you need to know the systems > (ie, git and hg). +10. I think a vote is prematured right now. Cheers. -- Ivan Enderlin Developer of Hoa http://hoa.42/ or http://hoa-project.net/ Member of HTML and WebApps Working Group of W3C http://w3.org/ --- ## #54923 — David Soria Parra — 2011-08-25T09:37:17+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/54892#54923 · In reply to: #54922 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 > > > […] > +10. I think a vote is prematured right now. so what do you suggest? We talk about the topic for 3 weeks now, and I think waiting any longer will not make more people familar with HG. So how do you make people take a look at the VCS in question? I'm open for suggestions. People now have 2 weeks to try out PHP by using the mirrors from either git.php.net or hg.php.net and see how their favourite system works. For me it seems most people don't even read the RFC and the recommendation, so I don't expect them to try out the VCS, but I don't have a clue how to change it. Joking: Next time I'll add a survey that you need to complete successfully before being alllowed to vote ;). -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJOVhfNAAoJEAT0aMuPE7Z1zukP/2IrTehCAE2AU+3CFSwh05NI san2ncCOfk3tdn6zOuc+4rYGWfSfixqjC0Xre7nma8sRb14zRt1kpzB5xA6EL2i9 SgqfPEUcpzPAF5QkoNrnR9FnZfFK/y/QXTRaupdk/ApLg2rdwegG2BzdB5AiofN7 Q1kxTlVBnwlizPH4J/0/H0kzm9/spkRhWkXslVtvkhVy/7yZH7I7R8kd+voy+6bE jmYuI7hS4Jf2/T0OFA9Js2V3sopOwOy7tuutEUqZ30EXjrE0UKFGs9eiGuBJaMF3 MLgvlSa6tcaAD+yJ8tLraJ1awUNl29kPT2QTJZQkgkJ07iKqPjipJu5jYRLQ6qdy kPuec7gUWC4jzrdmCsvtB1fdEGKWiCXspnP0KgGXjVmqreSvZBabiZm0fOEHqHST foqV7weQe/4wZd3n8UxTsk/Pd27OU5uXllkApsy123d7rV0hv9CEPy5WI7nlWsnB +necXTfdUeOFV2Vdgw7mDPXxf5vIC6t/rXiO2UjGd0QUZz9rxnb+JjQ5CAIpgeZz JVqXJH0RbVa7rIcxBctRmvZ/qq9oEQ9C4Du5vCSr8vOW7PKFJUo7QODd9cDbtBsS 0TnX8diqpw1JaXblIKrYmsUANkIiHLpynT3W9SZeCqdUjt8weiF8xAxbJKkA9/Tj ZE87iAbx3L+GfGNJ5ayz =Q5uu -----END PGP SIGNATURE --- ## #54925 — Ivan Enderlin @ Hoa — 2011-08-25T09:56:28+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/54892#54925 · In reply to: #54923 > > > > […] > so what do you suggest? We talk about the topic for 3 weeks now, and I > think waiting any longer will not make more people familar with HG. So > how do you make people take a look at the VCS in question? I'm open > for suggestions. I know. It's a difficult choice. But if we change our VCS for a DVCS, we do it for contributors or maintainers? If maintainers are the most concerned people, they should give a try to Hg and Git for a period longer than 2 weeks (2 months seems to be a reasonable period, 1 month with Hg, 1 month with Git). For the moment, the vote is opened to contributors. Maybe it's not a good “target” for the vote. > > People now have 2 weeks to try out PHP by using the mirrors from either > git.php.net or hg.php.net and see how their favourite system works. For > me it seems most people don't even read the RFC and the recommendation, > so I don't expect them to try out the VCS, but I don't have a clue how > to change it. I don't too. I think Git is more complicated than Hg and I regret the way the vote is changing. But, I repeat, I think the target for the vote is not appropriated. > > Joking: Next time I'll add a survey that you need to complete > successfully before being alllowed to vote ;). s/Joking/Todo/ :-) Best regards. -- Ivan Enderlin Developer of Hoa http://hoa.42/ or http://hoa-project.net/ Member of HTML and WebApps Working Group of W3C http://w3.org/ --- ## #54946 — Philip Olson — 2011-08-25T16:07:37+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/54892#54946 I'm not familiar enough with Mercurial to properly vote, but am guessing we'll move to Git. Git is popular because Github is popular, and Github is popular because it's awesome. But I think we should skip git.php.net and mirrors/bridges, and simply move to Github. And this means people who maintain Git for a living would maintain it, while we can focus on developing PHP. Regards, Philip --- ## #54949 — Kalle Sommer Nielsen — 2011-08-25T18:12:21+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/54892#54949 · In reply to: #54892 2011/8/24 David Soria Parra : > Hi Internals,, > > after 3 weeks of discussion, I think we are ready to start voting on > the DVCS RFC.  If you think something is missing or should be explained > in more detail, let me know. I won't transfer the discussion over here but; I don't want to move to a new system we we did it just a few years ago, as Rasmus said long before we moved was that we want to find a solid system that could hold out just as long as the old setup. I don't have a problem by using SVN, nor merge as we have been good at keeping files in sync so its easy to merge patches, much easier than the old unicode-trunk. That being said; I agree with Stas that having a vote is not a good way to actually make a choice here, but it gives a hint of those that voted, as I'm sure that there are many more actively working on the project like PEAR. PECL and Doc guys thats not gonna vote because they don't follow Internals. But -1 from me. -- regards, Kalle Sommer Nielsen kalle@php.net --- ## #54950 — Ilia Alshanetsky — 2011-08-25T19:08:50+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/54892#54950 · In reply to: #54892 If we do decide to make a VCS change the vote should be fairly one sided for "option of choice" as this has a fairly broad impact on our development process. > Hi Internals,, > > after 3 weeks of discussion, I think we are ready to start voting on > the DVCS RFC.  If you think something is missing or should be explained > in more detail, let me know. > > Votes can be found here: > >    https://wiki.php.net/rfc/dvcs/vote > > The RFC can be found here: > >    https://wiki.php.net/rfc/dvcs > > Voting will be opened for 2 weeks and end on Sept. 7 at 12 pm. > > - David --- ## #54954 — David Muir — 2011-08-25T23:53:12+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/54892#54954 · In reply to: #54949 > 2011/8/24 David Soria Parra : > > […] > I won't transfer the discussion over here but; I don't want to move to > a new system we we did it just a few years ago, as Rasmus said long > before we moved was that we want to find a solid system that could > hold out just as long as the old setup. I don't have a problem by > using SVN, nor merge as we have been good at keeping files in sync so > its easy to merge patches, much easier than the old unicode-trunk. > > That being said; I agree with Stas that having a vote is not a good > way to actually make a choice here, but it gives a hint of those that > voted, as I'm sure that there are many more actively working on the > project like PEAR. PECL and Doc guys thats not gonna vote because they > don't follow Internals. > > But -1 from me. > > FWIW, PEAR is already moving to GitHub. David --- ## #54965 — Lester Caine — 2011-08-26T06:48:46+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/54892#54965 · In reply to: #54954 David Muir wrote: > FWIW, PEAR is already moving to GitHub. So who dictated that .... There should at least be a little consistency in PHP and this is just another example of everybody just doing what they want and sod the rest of us :( -- Lester Caine - G8HFL ----------------------------- Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php --- ## #54966 — Ferenc Kovacs — 2011-08-26T07:28:12+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/54892#54966 · In reply to: #54965 > David Muir wrote: > > […] > > So who dictated that .... > There should at least be a little consistency in PHP and this is just > another example of everybody just doing what they want and sod the rest of > us :( > the pear group decided that obviously. btw. I thought that only the pear2 infrastructure (site, packages) are moving to github. -- Ferenc Kovács @Tyr43l - http://tyrael.hu --- ## #54967 — dukeofgaming — 2011-08-26T07:48:12+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/54892#54967 · In reply to: #54965 The only think that worries me is that most of the time people choose the service and not the tool. On one hand you have Mercurial, a more than capable DVCS with the lowest barrier of entry IMHO (you will love it while you learn it), and the very good service that is Bitbucket, now kind of catching up to github (but not there yet). However, Bitbucket doesn't have —AFAIK— the quantity of users github has, and that would be extremely healthy for the project. On the other hand you have git, which is a very popular and powerful DVCS, however (you will pull your hairs out while learning it but will love it in the end) it is not as straight-forward to get working as Mercurial. Having current SVN-only contributors learn it might going to be quite a challenge. If I could vote I'd vote for mercurial, but then again, I bet having PHP on github will increase contributions very quickly. Damn. > David Muir wrote: > > > […] > So who dictated that .... > There should at least be a little consistency in PHP and this is just > another example of everybody just doing what they want and sod the rest of > us :( > > > -- > Lester Caine - G8HFL > ----------------------------- > Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=**contact > L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk > EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ > Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// > Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/**index.php If I could vote I'd vote for mercurial, but then again, I bet having PHP on > github will increase contributions very quickly. > which is pointless if we can't easily accept/merge the pull requests from the github clone. :/ git itself is a powerful tool, but as AFAIK most of the people in this thread only prefer it over git if we also can use the github. maybe it would be a good idea to split up the dvcs migration to smaller steps (so different part of the current svn repo could be discussed/voted separately), and I also think, that it would be a good idea to create a poll for the current developers: - which vcs are you familiar with - which vcs would you prefer to use for your current work on the php project -- Ferenc Kovács @Tyr43l - http://tyrael.hu --- ## #54970 — Ryan McCue — 2011-08-26T08:34:29+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/54892#54970 · In reply to: #54969 Ferenc Kovacs wrote: > which is pointless if we can't easily accept/merge the pull requests > from the github clone. :/ You can very easily accept pull requests from GitHub even if you're not working on GitHub. e.g. I've been working on my own PHP fork, and have submitted a pull request to the PHP project. My repo is at https://github.com/rmccue/my-php-fork in the master branch. $ git remote add github-rmccue git@github.com:rmccue/my-php-fork.git $ git fetch github-rmccue $ git merge github-rmccue $ git push php-src master The only difference as far as pull requests go is the one-click interface on the GitHub site (which I don't like personally, since you can't test before pushing). -- Ryan McCue - which vcs would you prefer to use for your current work on the php project - which vcs will you continue to use what ever anybody else thinks you should be using? I'm running hg into github transparently for those projects that have already jumped lemming like ... and I put up with the crap that results from it :) I don't see github as any advantage, just a complete stranglehold on those parts moved to it, which will not then integrate with a decent project infrastructure such as php ALREADY HAS! -- Lester Caine - G8HFL ----------------------------- Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php --- ## #54973 — Brett Bieber — 2011-08-26T12:28:28+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/54892#54973 · In reply to: #54966 > > > […] PEAR is very different than the core. PEAR is inherently split up into small sub-packages that are easily maintained using separate version tracking. You could say PEAR is much like PECL, but there are still plenty of differences. We have a group of elected officials which (mostly) make final decisions, and we also have many individual developers that like to do what they want with their libraries. PEAR developers have long been able to use other publicly available version control systems. Yes the main repo has been with PHP, until svn.pear.php.net was set up for PEAR2 and subsequently moved back to PHP infrastructure once svn.php.net was set up. Just in the past few months or we've moved all of PEAR2 to git, and PEAR packages are individually moved over at will. > the pear group decided that obviously. > btw. I thought that only the pear2 infrastructure (site, packages) are > moving to github. PEAR2 was the first, yes. For PEAR(1) our QA team has focused on unmaintained packages. It takes a lot of manpower to vet new contributors by requesting patches and building enough trust that we're OK granting them svn.php.net access. We've recognized that it's easier to get new/external contributions on github, which is very important when maintainers leave and our QA team has to take over. -- Brett Bieber --- Next page: https://externals.io/message/54892.md?page=2