# rename T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM to T_DOUBLE_COLON - Thread: https://externals.io/message/49978 - Original archive: https://news-web.php.net/php.internals/49978 - Started by admin on 2010-10-30T00:47:29+00:00 - Messages: 30 - Page 1 of 2: messages 1 to 25 (25 per page, add `?page=N` to the URL) - Next page: https://externals.io/message/49978.md?page=2 - Reply by email to internals@lists.php.net - More for agents: search with https://externals.io/search.md?q={query} · JSON API at https://externals.io/api · documentation at https://externals.io/llms.txt --- ## #49978 — admin — 2010-10-30T00:47:29+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/49978#49978 WTF is T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM? This has to be THE most asked question by new php developers when they come across it. Can we please change the token name to `T_DOUBLE_COLON` so I don't have to hear about it constantly? Those that disagree don't do enough PHP support to know how often it is asked. it's worth it. Chad --- ## #49979 — Daniel P. Brown — 2010-10-30T01:02:56+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/49978#49979 · In reply to: #49978 > > Those that disagree don't do enough PHP support to know how often it is > asked. it's worth it. Someone disagreeing with your request to change something does not correlate to their doing "enough PHP support." There are many reasons to disagree with a change request, no matter how much any one person thinks of it as a necessity or an improvement. -- Dedicated Servers, Cloud and Cloud Hybrid Solutions, VPS, Hosting (866-) 725-4321 http://www.parasane.net/ --- ## #49980 — William A. Rowe Jr. — 2010-10-30T01:11:42+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/49978#49980 · In reply to: #49978 > WTF is T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM? > > This has to be THE most asked question by new php developers when they come across it. > Can we please change the token name to `T_DOUBLE_COLON` so I don't have to hear about it > constantly? > > Those that disagree don't do enough PHP support to know how often it is asked. it's worth it. Is it that hard to at least review the mailing list archives before ranting? At least posters would sound like they have educated themselves on why what came to be, and argue sensibly for changes. --- ## #49981 — admin — 2010-10-30T01:17:59+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/49978#49981 · In reply to: #49980 > > > > […] > Is it that hard to at least review the mailing list archives before ranting? > > At least posters would sound like they have educated themselves on why what > came to be, and argue sensibly for changes. > > obviously the old arguments didn't work, time to start anew. --- ## #49982 — Scott MacVicar — 2010-10-30T01:24:38+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/49978#49982 · In reply to: #49981 > > > […] > obviously the old arguments didn't work, time to start anew. > using a name like "admin" in your email headers isn't going to be very receptive. For what its worth its Hebrew for double colon. I'm all for the change, will see what I can do next week. - S --- ## #49983 — William A. Rowe Jr. — 2010-10-30T01:31:52+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/49978#49983 · In reply to: #49981 > > […] > obviously the old arguments didn't work, time to start anew. obviously you didn't stop to learn the art of persuasion. --- ## #49984 — Chad Emrys — 2010-10-30T01:47:58+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/49978#49984 · In reply to: #49983 > > > > […] > obviously you didn't stop to learn the art of persuasion. > > That's just rude, dude. --- ## #49985 — Chad Emrys — 2010-10-30T01:51:08+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/49978#49985 · In reply to: #49982 > > > > > […] > using a name like "admin" in your email headers isn't going to be very receptive. > > For what its worth its Hebrew for double colon. I'm all for the change, will see what I can do next week. > > - S > > Oops, sorry didn't even notice it was there, I don't send mail from this account much. Should be fixed. Though I don't care what my name has to do with reception. What is in a name anyway? --- ## #49987 — Daniel Brown — 2010-10-30T02:36:18+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/49978#49987 · In reply to: #49982 > > using a name like "admin" in your email headers isn't going to be very receptive. I was thinking the exact same thing. Glad not to be the only one. ;-P -- Network Infrastructure Manager Documentation, Webmaster Teams http://www.php.net/ --- ## #49989 — Andi Gutmans — 2010-10-30T06:23:59+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/49978#49989 · In reply to: #49978 The first google entry when you search for it gives you the answer. It is actually unbelievably easy to find the answer via search. If a new PHP developer can't find it then maybe they shouldn't be writing code. This is a piece of history from the PHP 3 days and think it adds some character, a story (and history) to PHP. Don't think we should take this out after a good 12 years. I would prefer this was not changed. Andi > -----Original Message----- > From: admin [mailto:admin@codeangel.org] > Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 5:47 PM > To: internals php list > Subject: [PHP-DEV] rename `T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM` to > `T_DOUBLE_COLON` > > WTF is T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM? > > This has to be THE most asked question by new php developers when they > come across it. Can we please change the token name to `T_DOUBLE_COLON` > so I don't have to hear about it constantly? > > Those that disagree don't do enough PHP support to know how often it is > asked. it's worth it. > > Chad > > -- > To unsubscribe, visit: > http://www.php.net/unsub.php --- ## #49991 — Chad Emrys — 2010-10-30T06:29:07+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/49978#49991 · In reply to: #49989 > The first google entry when you search for it gives you the answer. It is actually unbelievably easy to find the answer via search. If a new PHP developer can't find it then maybe they shouldn't be writing code. > > This is a piece of history from the PHP 3 days and think it adds some character, a story (and history) to PHP. Don't think we should take this out after a good 12 years. > > I would prefer this was not changed. > > Andi > > I don't see what is so endearing about a badly named token. --- ## #49994 — Sebastian Bergmann — 2010-10-30T06:34:48+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/49978#49994 · In reply to: #49989 > I would prefer this was not changed. +1 (for the same reasons) -- Sebastian Bergmann Co-Founder and Principal Consultant http://sebastian-bergmann.de/ http://thePHP.cc/ --- ## #49997 — Mike Van Riel — 2010-10-30T07:09:50+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/49978#49997 · In reply to: #49994 > > > […] > > +1 (for the same reasons) > I agree with Andi, Rasmus and the other people in favor. This token name is part of the history of PHP and adds to it's uniqueness. But besides this: renaming the constant is probably not going to solve the problem (at least not anytime soon). Changing this constant would mean breaking BC (some people using the tokenizer extension might use it) and thus officially it should only be implemented in PHP-next. This means that the support requests will be coming in for a long time as it not even planned for release or anything. Suppose that this rename would happen in the next minor release: most shared hosts lag immensily with their installed PHP version and I reckon most questions come from inexperienced / starting developers working with / on said hosts. And this means it will again take a long time before you notice any effect. (not to mention that Linux distros also lag). (additionally I wonder why people ask such a simple question on IRC whilst googling provides your answer faster..) Bottom line: I'd opt for keeping it. Kind regards, Mike van Riel --- ## #49998 — Peter Lind — 2010-10-30T07:11:52+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/49978#49998 · In reply to: #49985 Den 2010 10 30 03:51 skrev "Chad Emrys" : * snip * > What is in a name anyway? There's something VERY ironic about a statement like that given what you're asking for ... Regards Peter --- ## #49999 — Peter Lind — 2010-10-30T07:16:26+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/49978#49999 · In reply to: #49997 * snip * > (additionally I wonder why people ask such a simple question on IRC whilst > googling provides your answer faster..) Most of the people coming to ##php on freenode asking questions like that have a hard time learning (on their own or at all) - they expect to be spoonfed. Changing the token name might lower the frequency of this particular question, but it would have no overall effect on the number of people coming to ask questions they could get answered in two seconds by google. Regards Peter -- WWW: plphp.dk / plind.dk LinkedIn: plind BeWelcome/Couchsurfing: Fake51 Twitter: kafe15 > > > […] > > I agree with Andi, Rasmus and the other people in favor. > > This token name is part of the history of PHP and adds to it's > uniqueness. > > But besides this: renaming the constant is probably not going to solve > the problem (at least not anytime soon). > > Changing this constant would mean breaking BC (some people using the > tokenizer extension might use it) and thus officially it should only > be implemented in PHP-next. > This means that the support requests will be coming in for a long time > as it not even planned for release or anything. > > Suppose that this rename would happen in the next minor release: most > shared hosts lag immensily with their installed PHP version and I > reckon most questions come from inexperienced / starting developers > working with / on said hosts. And this means it will again take a long > time before you notice any effect. (not to mention that Linux distros > also lag). > > (additionally I wonder why people ask such a simple question on IRC > whilst googling provides your answer faster..) > > Bottom line: I'd opt for keeping it. > > Kind regards, > > Mike van Riel Just want to make this point: the length of time for it to take affect is not an argument for not implementing it. It'll come out when it's out. The sooner we implement it, the sooner we'll notice the effect. This goes for any change slanted for major release. (Also if I understand, there is a synonym in Tokenizer anyway so both would work and won't break BC, I just don't understand why the confusing name has to show up in error messages). --- ## #50001 — Chad Emrys — 2010-10-30T07:23:47+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/49978#50001 · In reply to: #49998 > Den 2010 10 30 03:51 skrev "Chad Emrys" >: > > * snip * > > > […] > > There's something VERY ironic about a statement like that given what > you're asking for ... > > Regards > Peter It was intentional ;p, glad you caught it. --- ## #50002 — Chad Emrys — 2010-10-30T07:34:42+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/49978#50002 · In reply to: #49999 > > > * snip * > > > > […] > Most of the people coming to ##php on freenode asking questions like > that have a hard time learning (on their own or at all) - they expect > to be spoonfed. Changing the token name might lower the frequency of > this particular question, but it would have no overall effect on the > number of people coming to ask questions they could get answered in > two seconds by google. > > Regards > Peter > > It's the same argument everyone else is giving, and really it all comes down to this.: Nostalgia is valued over clarity and consistency. Do you guys REALLY want to claim that? --- ## #50003 — Peter Lind — 2010-10-30T07:56:43+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/49978#50003 · In reply to: #50002 > > > […] > > It's the same argument everyone else is giving,  and really it all comes > down to this.: > > Nostalgia is valued over clarity and consistency. > > Do you guys REALLY want to claim that? > I wasn't arguing for or against a switch, just providing some background. That said, people with no google skills bugging you on irc is a very poor excuse for change. As for the rest of the discussion, both sides seem to have merit, in my opinion. Regards Peter -- WWW: plphp.dk / plind.dk LinkedIn: plind BeWelcome/Couchsurfing: Fake51 Twitter: kafe15 What is in a name anyway? Would a `T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM` by any other name make a difference? -- Richard Quadling Twitter : EE : Zend @RQuadling : e-e.com/M_248814.html : bit.ly/9O8vFY --- ## #50005 — Jorrit Kronjee — 2010-10-30T08:20:15+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/49978#50005 · In reply to: #50004 > > > […] > Would a `T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM` by any other name make a difference? > > To provide a counterargument, it certainly would. I don't consider myself an inexperienced PHP developer and have certainly done some OO programming, yet I only recently stumbled upon this error. I must admit that it is confusing. Most of these error messages are descriptive enough that just glossing over the code allows me to fix the issue 4 out of 5 times. For this one I had to do a Google search to reaffirm that my PHP installation didn't become the victim of a corrupted filesystem. Regards, Jorrit --- ## #50006 — Mike Van Riel — 2010-10-30T08:46:18+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/49978#50006 · In reply to: #50002 > > > […] > It's the same argument everyone else is giving, and really it all > comes down to this.: > > Nostalgia is valued over clarity and consistency. > > Do you guys REALLY want to claim that? If you are referring to my response, I believe I have given other arguments than your claim, as have others. The point is in the question: is it worth it? Do you think it is worth it to change something which works (functionally), has been there for 12 years and for the effort it takes to persuade people to want to change it? This all because people will have to google once in their carreer? Another solution might be to add a rule to an IRC bot to automatically provide the answer if the token name (and/or common misspellings) are mentioned. This would instantly solve the issue about support requests. Kind regards, Mike van Riel --- ## #50018 — Chad Emrys — 2010-10-30T16:37:35+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/49978#50018 · In reply to: #50006 > > > > […] > > If you are referring to my response, I believe I have given other > arguments than your claim, as have others. > > The point is in the question: is it worth it? > > Do you think it is worth it to change something which works > (functionally), has been there for 12 years and for the effort it > takes to persuade people to want to change it? > > This all because people will have to google once in their carreer? > > Another solution might be to add a rule to an IRC bot to automatically > provide the answer if the token name (and/or common misspellings) are > mentioned. This would instantly solve the issue about support requests. > > Kind regards, > > Mike van Riel I think it's more constructive to the language when we ask "Why Not?" rather than "Why"? I already mentioned in my first email: It is worth it. Automatic bot responses are prone to abuse. --- ## #50046 — Richard Quadling — 2010-11-01T10:22:03+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/49978#50046 · In reply to: #49978 > WTF is T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM? > > This has to be THE most asked question by new php developers when they come > across it.  Can we please change the token name to `T_DOUBLE_COLON` so I don't > have to hear about it constantly? > > Those that disagree don't do enough PHP support to know how often it is > asked. it's worth it. > > Chad Maybe, considering the easter egg nature of this token, one of the following URLs should be included in the message ... tinyurl.com/c8d7ek, tinyurl.com/25865ya or tinyurl.com/nlx98u. Maybe just drop the tinyurl.com part - let's give those that can't really something to complain about! -- Richard Quadling Twitter : EE : Zend @RQuadling : e-e.com/M_248814.html : bit.ly/9O8vFY --- ## #50062 — Richard Lynch — 2010-11-01T18:37:52+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/49978#50062 · In reply to: #49978 > WTF is T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM? > > This has to be THE most asked question by new php developers when they > come across it. Can we please change the token name to `T_DOUBLE_COLON` > so I don't have to hear about it constantly? > > Those that disagree don't do enough PHP support to know how often it > is > asked. it's worth it. -1 And I *have* done "enough" PHP support. :-) -- brain cancer update: http://richardlynch.blogspot.com/search/label/brain%20tumor Donate: https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_s-xclick&hosted_button_id=FS9NLTNEEKWBE --- Next page: https://externals.io/message/49978.md?page=2