# Notes from the PDM in Chicago - Thread: https://externals.io/message/44137 - Original archive: https://news-web.php.net/php.internals/44137 - Started by Andrei Zmievski on 2009-06-03T20:52:22+00:00 - Messages: 17 - Reply by email to internals@lists.php.net - More for agents: search with https://externals.io/search.md?q={query} · JSON API at https://externals.io/api · documentation at https://externals.io/llms.txt --- ## #44137 — Andrei Zmievski — 2009-06-03T20:52:22+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/44137#44137 Taking advantage of php|tek bringing a lot of people together, we had a PHP developers meeting over 2 days before the conference. Day 1 was dedicated to technical issues in PHP 5 and 6, and day 2 was spent discussing potential features, migration issues, current roadblocks, etc. People who were at the meeting: Day 1 * Brian Shire * Derick Rethans * Dmitry Stogov * Elizabeth Smith * Ilia Alshanetsky * Sara Golemon * Scott MacVicar * Stas Malyshev * Tom Hanrahan (Microsoft) * Wez Furlong * me Day 2 (Day 1 people) + * Ben Ramsey * Cal Evans * Chris Jones * Chris Shiflett * Hank Jannsen (Microsoft) * Andrew Kass (Microsoft) * Sean Coates The notes from the meeting are available on the wiki: http://wiki.php.net/summits/pdmnotesmay09 I don't want people here to assume that these notes are "decisions" necessarily. They reflect the consensus of the group that was at the meeting and we should still take up the unresolved or arguable issues on this list. But hopefully we have a more structured and outlined list of things that we can follow for PHP 5.4/6. There are a couple of items that were unclear from the original notes — looking at you, Liz Smith :) - so, those of you who remember the discussion, please fill them in. -Andrei --- ## #44140 — Hannes Magnusson — 2009-06-03T21:24:37+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/44137#44140 · In reply to: #44137 > Taking advantage of php|tek bringing a lot of people together, we had a PHP > developers meeting over 2 days before the conference. Day 1 was dedicated to > technical issues in PHP 5 and 6, and day 2 was spent discussing potential > features, migration issues, current roadblocks, etc. I assume the names in parentheses are people who volunteered to do the task, not whoever brought it up? (very ambitious crowd) :) Regarding the stream interface, what does "FIIK" mean? I would really love such an interface, the current situation is very confusing, and I once upon a time had a rough draft of it.. And regarding reserving the "PHP" namespace, this was brought up during the 5.3 release cycle and is something that imo should be done in 5.3.. I'm unsure what happened to that discussion, probably dissolved into separator war. -Hannes --- ## #44141 — Andrei Zmievski — 2009-06-03T21:29:11+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/44137#44141 · In reply to: #44140 Hannes Magnusson wrote: > I assume the names in parentheses are people who volunteered to do the > task, not whoever brought it up? (very ambitious crowd) :) Volunteered to do it or at least guide others. > Regarding the stream interface, what does "FIIK" mean? > I would really love such an interface, the current situation is very > confusing, and I once upon a time had a rough draft of it.. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=FIIK That was one that I couldn't decipher from Liz's notes. > And regarding reserving the "PHP" namespace, this was brought up > during the 5.3 release cycle and is something that imo should be done > in 5.3.. I'm unsure what happened to that discussion, probably > dissolved into separator war. Quite likely. -Andrei --- ## #44143 — Elizabeth M Smith — 2009-06-03T21:43:27+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/44137#44143 · In reply to: #44141 Andrei Zmievski wrote: > Hannes Magnusson wrote: > > […] > > Volunteered to do it or at least guide others. > > > […] and you didn't ask either Andrei ;) yes Hannes - interfaces for userland implemented streams would help people trying to figure out if they have all the methods they need for a particular stream type (SeekableStream et al) - this would be backward compat (you wouldn't HAVE to implement the interfaces IIRC, at least not right away) but would help things along - Sara had the general ideas for how this would be done. rough draft sounds good - code? Thanks Elizabeth Smith --- ## #44144 — Andrei Zmievski — 2009-06-03T21:51:35+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/44137#44144 · In reply to: #44143 Elizabeth M Smith wrote: > yes Hannes - interfaces for userland implemented streams would help > people trying to figure out if they have all the methods they need for a > particular stream type (SeekableStream et al) - this would be backward > compat (you wouldn't HAVE to implement the interfaces IIRC, at least not > right away) but would help things along - Sara had the general ideas for > how this would be done. > > rough draft sounds good - code? Can you update the wiki with this? :) -Andrei --- ## #44147 — Greg Beaver — 2009-06-04T03:18:55+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/44137#44147 · In reply to: #44141 Andrei Zmievski wrote: > Hannes Magnusson wrote: > > […] > > Volunteered to do it or at least guide others. I think some people were "volunteered" based on prior contributions? The first I heard of my role in phar for PHP 6 was reading it on the wiki. Not that I have a problem with that, but I wonder if there are other people who don't know their names are on the list? Thanks, Greg --- ## #44148 — Pierre Joye — 2009-06-04T06:02:51+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/44137#44148 · In reply to: #44137 > Taking advantage of php|tek bringing a lot of people together, we had a PHP > developers meeting over 2 days before the conference. Day 1 was dedicated to > technical issues in PHP 5 and 6, and day 2 was spent discussing potential > features, migration issues, current roadblocks, etc. > > People who were at the meeting: > > Day 1 >  * Brian Shire >  * Derick Rethans >  * Dmitry Stogov >  * Elizabeth Smith >  * Ilia Alshanetsky >  * Sara Golemon >  * Scott MacVicar >  * Stas Malyshev >  * Tom Hanrahan (Microsoft) >  * Wez Furlong >  * me > > Day 2 (Day 1 people) + >  * Ben Ramsey >  * Cal Evans >  * Chris Jones >  * Chris Shiflett >  * Hank Jannsen (Microsoft) >  * Andrew Kass (Microsoft) >  * Sean Coates > > The notes from the meeting are available on the wiki: > >  http://wiki.php.net/summits/pdmnotesmay09 > > I don't want people here to assume that these notes are "decisions" > necessarily. You mean "are not decicions" right? Cheers, -- Pierre http://blog.thepimp.net | http://www.libgd.org --- ## #44149 — Lukas Kahwe Smith — 2009-06-04T06:40:08+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/44137#44149 · In reply to: #44137 > I don't want people here to assume that these notes are "decisions" > necessarily. They reflect the consensus of the group that was at the > meeting and we should still take up the unresolved or arguable > issues on this list. But hopefully we have a more structured and > outlined list of things that we can follow for PHP 5.4/6. There are > a couple of items that were unclear from the original notes — > looking at you, Liz Smith :) - so, those of you who remember the > discussion, please fill them in. To me its absolutely critical that we do not give the impression that the next bigger update after 5.3 will be 5.4. The next big thing is 6.0. If we do a 5.4 then it will come after 6.0, just like 4.4 to ease migration. But it makes no sense to release 5.4 with forward compatibility stuff until we know we really nailed 6.0. regards, Lukas Kahwe Smith mls@pooteeweet.org --- ## #44150 — Andi Gutmans — 2009-06-04T06:46:25+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/44137#44150 · In reply to: #44143 > -----Original Message----- > From: Elizabeth M Smith [mailto:auroraeosrose@gmail.com] > Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 2:43 PM > To: internals@lists.php.net > Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Notes from the PDM in Chicago > yes Hannes - interfaces for userland implemented streams would help > people trying to figure out if they have all the methods they need for > a > particular stream type (SeekableStream et al) - this would be backward > compat (you wouldn't HAVE to implement the interfaces IIRC, at least > not > right away) but would help things along - Sara had the general ideas > for > how this would be done. Btw, this is also true for PDO. We would want interfaces for PDOStatement and some other classes there too. That is in the TODO for PDO I believe but if we do this then let's make sure we do it consistently. Andi --- ## #44151 — Pierre Joye — 2009-06-04T06:49:47+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/44137#44151 · In reply to: #44150 > > […] > > Btw, this is also true for PDO. We would want interfaces for PDOStatement and some other classes there too. That is in the TODO for PDO I believe but if we do this then let's make sure we do it consistently. I would suggest to create a specific RFC about this topic in the wiki. Cheers, -- Pierre http://blog.thepimp.net | http://www.libgd.org --- ## #44152 — Kalle Sommer Nielsen — 2009-06-04T06:50:17+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/44137#44152 · In reply to: #44149 2009/6/4 Lukas Kahwe Smith : > > > > > […] > > > To me its absolutely critical that we do not give the impression that the > next bigger update after 5.3 will be 5.4. The next big thing is 6.0. If we > do a 5.4 then it will come after 6.0, just like 4.4 to ease migration. But > it makes no sense to release 5.4 with forward compatibility stuff until we > know we really nailed 6.0. I completely agree, we have already seen how much further 5.3's release process was extended by constant new proposals and in the middle namespaces, doing a 5.4 (before a 6.0.0 alpha/beta/rc) will most likely crease development in HEAD (again, again) and extend the development a year. 5.4 could be a considerable upgrade after the 6.0.0 release, 6.0.0 have already been delayed many years, I remember in Paris 2005 someone said something about an expected 6.0.0 alpha or similar within a half year. > > regards, > Lukas Kahwe Smith > mls@pooteeweet.org > > > > > -- > > > > -- regrads, Kalle Sommer Nielsen kalle@php.net --- ## #44154 — Karsten Dambekalns — 2009-06-04T07:56:25+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/44137#44154 · In reply to: #44149 Hi Lukas. > To me its absolutely critical that we do not give the impression that > the next bigger update after 5.3 will be 5.4. The next big thing is 6.0. Thumbs up, and good luck with this ambitious plan! ;) We'd be happy to switch to PHP 6... Regards, Karsten --- ## #44157 — Andrei Zmievski — 2009-06-04T18:29:50+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/44137#44157 · In reply to: #44147 Greg Beaver wrote: > I think some people were "volunteered" based on prior contributions? > The first I heard of my role in phar for PHP 6 was reading it on the > wiki. Not that I have a problem with that, but I wonder if there are > other people who don't know their names are on the list? Yes, we basically looked at the current maintainer of the extension or code when making the list. Hopefully, this is not a problem with anyone - people can pass off the task to someone else. -Andrei --- ## #44158 — Andrei Zmievski — 2009-06-04T18:37:39+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/44137#44158 · In reply to: #44149 Lukas Kahwe Smith wrote: > To me its absolutely critical that we do not give the impression that > the next bigger update after 5.3 will be 5.4. The next big thing is 6.0. > If we do a 5.4 then it will come after 6.0, just like 4.4 to ease > migration. But it makes no sense to release 5.4 with forward > compatibility stuff until we know we really nailed 6.0. Yes, let me make this absolutely clear. All development effort regarding new features and such should go into PHP 6. PHP 5.4 should happen after majority of work on PHP 6 is done. -Andrei --- ## #44163 — Andi Gutmans — 2009-06-04T21:59:55+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/44137#44163 · In reply to: #44151 > -----Original Message----- > From: Pierre Joye [mailto:pierre.php@gmail.com] > Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 11:50 PM > To: Andi Gutmans > Cc: Elizabeth M Smith; internals@lists.php.net > Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Notes from the PDM in Chicago > > > […] > PDOStatement and some other classes there too. That is in the TODO for > PDO I believe but if we do this then let's make sure we do it > consistently. > > I would suggest to create a specific RFC about this topic in the wiki. The requirement itself is captured in http://wiki.php.net/rfc/pdov1. The problem is of course coming up with an RFC for a standard way to do interfaces for internal classes that need that (naming convention). Will try and look into what precedence we have and see what we can suggest. Andi --- ## #44190 — Keisial — 2009-06-05T21:01:02+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/44137#44190 · In reply to: #44143 Elizabeth M Smith wrote: > yes Hannes - interfaces for userland implemented streams would help > people trying to figure out if they have all the methods they need for a > particular stream type (SeekableStream et al) - this would be backward > compat (you wouldn't HAVE to implement the interfaces IIRC, at least not > right away) but would help things along - Sara had the general ideas for > how this would be done. > > rough draft sounds good - code? > > Thanks > Elizabeth Smith > While dealing with the streams interfaces, what about making the api saner, too? All those bucket and brigade functions make streams unnecessarily complex to deal with. http://www.php.net/manual/en/ref.stream.php --- ## #44192 — Hannes Magnusson — 2009-06-05T21:34:34+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/44137#44192 · In reply to: #44190 > While dealing with the streams interfaces, what about making the api > saner, too? > All those bucket and brigade functions make streams unnecessarily complex > to deal with. > http://www.php.net/manual/en/ref.stream.php I made an honest attempt documenting the stream wrapper (http://php.net/streamwrapper) few weeks ago and was planning on hitting the filter stuff next.. I lost to many braincells in the process and fear going through the filters will leave me with none left.. Help appreciated! :) -Hannes