# Reserved namespaces - Thread: https://externals.io/message/42801 - Original archive: https://news-web.php.net/php.internals/42801 - Started by Andrei Zmievski on 2009-01-23T22:14:16+00:00 - Messages: 20 - Reply by email to internals@lists.php.net - More for agents: search with https://externals.io/search.md?q={query} · JSON API at https://externals.io/api · documentation at https://externals.io/llms.txt --- ## #42801 — Andrei Zmievski — 2009-01-23T22:14:16+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/42801#42801 Forgive me if I've missed this in the heat of all the namespaces discussions. Did we consider having reserved namespaces, like 'PHP' or 'SPL', so that if a user tries to declare a namespace with that name an error is raised? -Andrei --- ## #42802 — David Coallier — 2009-01-23T22:35:46+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/42801#42802 · In reply to: #42801 > Forgive me if I've missed this in the heat of all the namespaces > discussions. Did we consider having reserved namespaces, like 'PHP' or > 'SPL', so that if a user tries to declare a namespace with that name an > error is raised? I'd say what you are looking for is probably this. http://wiki.php.net/rfc/namespaces-for-internal-classes I know this has been discussed but I'm not sure if any decision has been made on that subject. Or if anyone had time to start digging into this issue further than discussions. Lars? Cheers, -- Slan, David --- ## #42804 — Hannes Magnusson — 2009-01-23T23:37:58+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/42801#42804 · In reply to: #42801 > Forgive me if I've missed this in the heat of all the namespaces > discussions. Did we consider having reserved namespaces, like 'PHP' or > 'SPL', so that if a user tries to declare a namespace with that name an > error is raised? I don't think we have to treat our users like a total fcking idiots. If anyone thinks using "SPL" or "PHP" as their root namespace is a good idea they deserve to be kicked in the nuts. -Hannes --- ## #42805 — Andrei Zmievski — 2009-01-23T23:49:31+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/42801#42805 · In reply to: #42804 Hannes Magnusson wrote: > I don't think we have to treat our users like a total fcking idiots. > If anyone thinks using "SPL" or "PHP" as their root namespace is a > good idea they deserve to be kicked in the nuts. And who's going to administer this kicking? -Andrei --- ## #42806 — Lukas Kahwe Smith — 2009-01-23T23:56:40+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/42801#42806 · In reply to: #42805 > Hannes Magnusson wrote: > > […] > > And who's going to administer this kicking? I think the decision was to not yet bother with reserving namespaces or starting to namespace-ify extensions. We might however want to put out a naming guide for namespaces. regards, Lukas Kahwe Smith mls@pooteeweet.org --- ## #42807 — Andrei Zmievski — 2009-01-23T23:58:22+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/42801#42807 · In reply to: #42806 Lukas Kahwe Smith wrote: > I think the decision was to not yet bother with reserving namespaces or > starting to namespace-ify extensions. We might however want to put out a > naming guide for namespaces. I agree. Whether the error is raised or not on reserved namespaces can be done later, but we should explicitly indicate that certain namespaces are off-limits. -Andrei --- ## #42808 — Alain Williams — 2009-01-24T00:07:51+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/42801#42808 · In reply to: #42807 > Lukas Kahwe Smith wrote: > > […] > > I agree. Whether the error is raised or not on reserved namespaces can be > done later, but we should explicitly indicate that certain namespaces are > off-limits. Could take the simple convention that exists in perl with modules. Module names begin with a capital letter, pragmase are lower case, thus you have: use strict; use IO::File Nobody is made to do anything, however you loose the option to complain if your namespace starts with a lower case character. -- Alain Williams Linux/GNU Consultant - Mail systems, Web sites, Networking, Programmer, IT Lecturer. +44 (0) 787 668 0256 http://www.phcomp.co.uk/ Parliament Hill Computers Ltd. Registration Information: http://www.phcomp.co.uk/contact.php Past chairman of UKUUG: http://www.ukuug.org/ #include > > […] > > Could take the simple convention that exists in perl with modules. > > Module names begin with a capital letter, pragmase are lower case, thus you have: > > use strict; > > use IO::File > > Nobody is made to do anything, however you loose the option to complain if your > namespace starts with a lower case character. > > -- > Alain Williams > Linux/GNU Consultant - Mail systems, Web sites, Networking, Programmer, IT Lecturer. > +44 (0) 787 668 0256 http://www.phcomp.co.uk/ > Parliament Hill Computers Ltd. Registration Information: http://www.phcomp.co.uk/contact.php > Past chairman of UKUUG: http://www.ukuug.org/ > #include > > -- > > > > -- Guilherme Blanco - Web Developer CBC - Certified Bindows Consultant Cell Phone: +55 (16) 9215-8480 MSN: guilhermeblanco@hotmail.com URL: http://blog.bisna.com São Paulo - SP/Brazil --- ## #42848 — Christian Schneider — 2009-01-26T12:06:01+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/42801#42848 · In reply to: #42806 Lukas Kahwe Smith wrote: > > > > […] > > I think the decision was to not yet bother with reserving namespaces or > starting to namespace-ify extensions. We might however want to put out a > naming guide for namespaces. Things gettings reserved at a later stage (like originally keywords, now namespaces) can lead to a big deal of frustration. Therefore I think it is crucial to have a clear naming guide now. And these guidelines have to be noticed by everybody who starts to use namespaces so they have to be placed prominently. Personally I'd even prefer them to be enforced in code so they can't be missed. Removing restrictions later on causes less trouble so I wouldn't mind too much if a couple of namespaces (or namespace prefixes) are reserved but never used. My two cents, - Chris --- ## #42849 — Alain Williams — 2009-01-26T12:27:28+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/42801#42849 · In reply to: #42848 > Things gettings reserved at a later stage (like originally keywords, now > namespaces) can lead to a big deal of frustration. Therefore I think it > is crucial to have a clear naming guide now. +1 > And these guidelines have to be noticed by everybody who starts to use > namespaces so they have to be placed prominently. > Personally I'd even prefer them to be enforced in code so they can't be > missed. No: * there are occasional times when rules might want to be broken * to enforce it just makes the language/compiler bigger * If it is advertised and someone breaks the rules - then it is their problem. > Removing restrictions later on causes less trouble so I wouldn't mind > too much if a couple of namespaces (or namespace prefixes) are reserved > but never used. As I suggested, do it the way that perl does: it is keyed off the case of the characters. So, the reserved spaces could be one of: 1) entirely lower case (or perhaps just start with lower case) 2) entirely upper case 3) start with an underscore ('_') Perl does (1). It might be better to do (2) because system variables tend to be in upper case anyway (think: $_GET). (3) also has the virtue that system things tend to start with an underscore. This scheme is nice and simple. -- Alain Williams Linux/GNU Consultant - Mail systems, Web sites, Networking, Programmer, IT Lecturer. +44 (0) 787 668 0256 http://www.phcomp.co.uk/ Parliament Hill Computers Ltd. Registration Information: http://www.phcomp.co.uk/contact.php Past chairman of UKUUG: http://www.ukuug.org/ #include > > […] > > +1 > > > […] > > > […] > > No: > * there are occasional times when rules might want to be broken > * to enforce it just makes the language/compiler bigger > * If it is advertised and someone breaks the rules - then it is their problem. > > > […] > > As I suggested, do it the way that perl does: it is keyed off the case of the characters. > So, the reserved spaces could be one of: > > 1) entirely lower case (or perhaps just start with lower case) > 2) entirely upper case People, can we all agree to remember that PHP is case-insensitive with the exception of variable names and a few constants? Thanks, Greg --- ## #43335 — Andrei Zmievski — 2009-03-12T23:39:28+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/42801#43335 · In reply to: #42848 Christian Schneider wrote: > Things gettings reserved at a later stage (like originally keywords, now > namespaces) can lead to a big deal of frustration. Therefore I think it > is crucial to have a clear naming guide now. > > And these guidelines have to be noticed by everybody who starts to use > namespaces so they have to be placed prominently. > Personally I'd even prefer them to be enforced in code so they can't be > missed. > > Removing restrictions later on causes less trouble so I wouldn't mind > too much if a couple of namespaces (or namespace prefixes) are reserved > but never used. Just a gentle reminder to make sure we don't miss this.. -Andrei --- ## #43336 — Lukas Kahwe Smith — 2009-03-13T08:42:04+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/42801#43336 · In reply to: #43335 > Christian Schneider wrote: > > […] > > Just a gentle reminder to make sure we don't miss this.. Well cant we just use the class naming guide? As in put a prefix in your namespace names, do not use an extension name (or something that could likely become an extension name) as your prefix. Then again for classes we say that the prefix should be prepended with an underscore as the separator as the ultimate protection. That of course does not seem feasible for namespaces. regards, Lukas Kahwe Smith mls@pooteeweet.org --- ## #43350 — Greg Beaver — 2009-03-15T03:41:18+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/42801#43350 · In reply to: #43336 Lukas Kahwe Smith wrote: > > > > > […] > > > Well cant we just use the class naming guide? As in put a prefix in your > namespace names, do not use an extension name (or something that could > likely become an extension name) as your prefix. > > Then again for classes we say that the prefix should be prepended with > an underscore as the separator as the ultimate protection. That of > course does not seem feasible for namespaces. -1 for using existing guide Please don't make us do this This is fine: Greg --- ## #43547 — Lukas Kahwe Smith — 2009-03-30T23:28:49+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/42801#43547 · In reply to: #43335 > Christian Schneider wrote: > > […] > > Just a gentle reminder to make sure we don't miss this.. So where are we at here? If nobody proposes something, this will just slide by .. I guess we can say that there is a definate risk, that eventually extensions will become namespaced. Same for internal functions. So calling a namespace "Date" or "str" is probably not a good idea .. right? Now for the less obvious stuff .. does the ZF prefix all their top level namespaces with ZF etc.? Speaking of ZF ... wasnt there an effort over at ZF to define a sensible standard? regards, Lukas Kahwe Smith mls@pooteeweet.org --- ## #43548 — Paul Biggar — 2009-03-30T23:56:20+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/42801#43548 · In reply to: #43547 > If nobody proposes something, this will just slide by .. It seems simple enough to add a note on the manual page reserving the use of some namespaces: PHP (even if we never use it, best no-one else does) internals (ditto) SPL (reserved for SPL) PEAR (reserved for PEAR) PECL (reserved for PECL) Though we could add a simple check to the parser, I see no real need if we make this list conspicuous enough. Once the users have been warned, we are in a better position to administer their kick to the nuts. Paul -- Paul Biggar paul.biggar@gmail.com --- ## #43549 — Ilia Alshanetsky — 2009-03-31T00:03:12+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/42801#43549 · In reply to: #43548 IMHO any extension name should be reserved as a namespace. Ilia Alshanetsky > On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 12:28 AM, Lukas Kahwe Smith > […] > > It seems simple enough to add a note on the manual page reserving the > use of some namespaces: > > PHP (even if we never use it, best no-one else does) > internals (ditto) > SPL (reserved for SPL) > PEAR (reserved for PEAR) > PECL (reserved for PECL) > > Though we could add a simple check to the parser, I see no real need > if we make this list conspicuous enough. Once the users have been > warned, we are in a better position to administer their kick to the > nuts. > > > Paul > > > > -- > Paul Biggar > paul.biggar@gmail.com --- ## #43550 — Greg Beaver — 2009-03-31T02:47:55+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/42801#43550 · In reply to: #43547 Lukas Kahwe Smith wrote: > > > > > […] > > > So where are we at here? > If nobody proposes something, this will just slide by .. I propose reserving PHP. extensions can be PHP\extname (i.e. class PHP\Phar, or for extensions with multiple levels of hierarchy PHP\PDO\mysql etc.) Alternately, we forbid namespaces in extensions, and thus users can guarantee no conflict with PHP internals simply by using them. Anything else will lead to insanity very quickly. Either we'll get wonderful conflicts or no way to figure out in advance what namespaces are OK. Ilia's suggestion of reserving any extension, current or future, as a namespace makes it impossible to predict what namespaces should not be used in userspace, and as we know, extensions can have literally any name. This, in my opinion, is no option at all, as we need to be able to know whether names we choose can be safely used with future versions of PHP. Greg --- ## #43551 — Hannes Magnusson — 2009-03-31T06:51:12+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/42801#43551 · In reply to: #43550 > Lukas Kahwe Smith wrote: > > […] > > I propose reserving PHP.  extensions can be PHP\extname (i.e. class > PHP\Phar, or for extensions with multiple levels of hierarchy > PHP\PDO\mysql etc.) +1 I don't think we should magically raise errors if someone tries to declare such namespace, but updating the userland naming guide would be good. That being said; Would it be possible to enforce the PHP\ internally? Otherwise extension authors will simply ignore the rule and come up with their own conventions... -Hannes --- ## #43655 — Lukas Kahwe Smith — 2009-04-07T14:46:59+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/42801#43655 · In reply to: #43551 > On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 04:47, Greg Beaver > wrote: > > […] > > +1 > > I don't think we should magically raise errors if someone tries to > declare such namespace, but updating the userland naming guide would > be good. > That being said; Would it be possible to enforce the PHP\ internally? > Otherwise extension authors will simply ignore the rule and come up > with their own conventions... Ok, is this settled now? Anyone working a patch? regards, Lukas Kahwe Smith mls@pooteeweet.org