# - Thread: https://externals.io/message/41374 - Original archive: https://news-web.php.net/php.internals/41374 - Started by Lukas Kahwe Smith on 2008-10-25T18:07:06+00:00 - Messages: 14 - Reply by email to internals@lists.php.net - More for agents: search with https://externals.io/search.md?q={query} · JSON API at https://externals.io/api · documentation at https://externals.io/llms.txt --- ## #41374 — Lukas Kahwe Smith — 2008-10-25T18:07:06+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/41374#41374 Hi all, Thx to the initiative of Scott and Steph we had an IRC discussion with several code developers. The result is that we have decided to go with backslash as new separator for namespaces. The IRC log that illustrates why we in the end decided to go with changing the separator and the final decision on backslash can be found on the wiki [1]. Greg is working on a patch, however Dmitry said he will assist even though he was actually opposed to the decision we made in the end. I very much appreciate Dmitry accepting this decision in such a professional manner. At the same time I hope that all people that have participated in this discussion accept this decision as one that was made by a sufficiently large subset of the development community. We did not take the decision lightly but we felt confident that this decision is for the best of PHP going forward. As the patch is still under development it is yet unclear how this will affect the scheduling PHP 5.3. regards, Lukas Kahwe Smith mls@pooteeweet.org [1] http://wiki.php.net/rfc/namespaceseparator --- ## #41375 — David Grudl — 2008-10-25T21:07:16+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/41374#41375 · In reply to: #41374 I hope it is only very bad joke :-( namespace myNamespace; class theLoader { function load($class) { ... } } // somewhere else spl_autoload_register(array("myNamespace\theLoader", "load")); -> registers myNamespaceheLoader::load() David Grudl -------- Původní zpráva -------- Předmět: Od: mls@pooteeweet.org (Lukas Kahwe Smith) Komu: Datum: 25.10.2008 20:07 > Hi all, > > Thx to the initiative of Scott and Steph we had an IRC discussion with > several code developers. The result is that we have decided to go with > backslash as new separator for namespaces. The IRC log that illustrates > why we in the end decided to go with changing the separator and the > final decision on backslash can be found on the wiki [1]. --- ## #41376 — Gregory Beaver — 2008-10-25T21:12:50+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/41374#41376 · In reply to: #41375 David Grudl wrote: > I hope it is only very bad joke :-( > > > namespace myNamespace; > > class theLoader > { > function load($class) { ... } > } > > > // somewhere else > spl_autoload_register(array("myNamespace\theLoader", "load")); > -> registers myNamespaceheLoader::load() Fortunately, there is a simple workaround: spl_autoload_register(array('myNamespace\theLoader', 'load')); or slightly less simple: spl_autoload_register(array("myNamespace\\theLoader", "load")); Greg --- ## #41377 — Stan Vassilev | FM — 2008-10-26T08:04:02+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/41374#41377 · In reply to: #41374 Hi, I want to thank you all for opting for the technically sound, clear and performant solution. Of course some users will never understand the precise reasons :: was avoided, but it's something we'll have to live with, given some past design choices in PHP. Regarding "foo\tbar" turning into "foo[tab]bar", I just wanted to throw it out there, although I don't think it's a great idea. We have only few escape combinations in string literals which can also be in a valid identifier: \t \n \r There are also some which aren't a problem since they can't be in a valid identifier: \x.. \0 \\ \$ \' \" \{..} etc. So the problem is with exactly three combos: \t, \n and \r. In the few places PHP takes class/function identifiers as strings, TAB, CR and LF could be interpolated back into the two characters they express, since TAB, CR and LF aren't valid on their own in identifiers, so ambiguity is not possible. Those places of the top of my mind are: new $class(), $class::property, call_user_*(), _autoload, and all other places accepting callbacks. This would mean both of those will work correctly: "foo\\tbar" and "foo\tbar" when used as an identifier. Think of it as a plan B in case people cause a big fuss about it (which I think they won't: think about escaping of windows file paths and escaping in regex pattern, we're doing just fine there). Regards, Stan Vassilev --- ## #41378 — Catalin Zamfir Alexandru | KIT Software CAZ — 2008-10-26T08:30:00+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/41374#41378 · In reply to: #41377 Ok, for short: "Cry havoc, and let loose the dogs of war." The fact that they chose '\' instead of ::: or anything else is going to be a killer to teach for novice PHP devs. Just my 0.02$ ... > -----Original Message----- > From: Stan Vassilev | FM [mailto:sv_forums@fmethod.com] > Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2008 10:04 AM > To: PHP internals > Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] > > > Hi, > > I want to thank you all for opting for the technically sound, clear and > performant solution. Of course some users will never understand the > precise > reasons :: was avoided, but it's something we'll have to live with, > given > some past design choices in PHP. > > Regarding "foo\tbar" turning into "foo[tab]bar", I just wanted to throw > it > out there, although I don't think it's a great idea. We have only few > escape > combinations in string literals which can also be in a valid identifier: > > \t \n \r > > There are also some which aren't a problem since they can't be in a > valid > identifier: > > \x.. \0 \\ \$ \' \" \{..} etc. > > So the problem is with exactly three combos: \t, \n and \r. In the few > places PHP takes class/function identifiers as strings, TAB, CR and LF > could > be interpolated back into the two characters they express, since TAB, CR > and > LF aren't valid on their own in identifiers, so ambiguity is not > possible. > > Those places of the top of my mind are: new $class(), $class::property, > call_user_*(), _autoload, and all other places accepting callbacks. > > This would mean both of those will work correctly: "foo\\tbar" and > "foo\tbar" when used as an identifier. > > Think of it as a plan B in case people cause a big fuss about it (which > I > think they won't: think about escaping of windows file paths and > escaping in > regex pattern, we're doing just fine there). > > Regards, > Stan Vassilev --- ## #41384 — Benjamin Schulz — 2008-10-26T15:21:44+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/41374#41384 · In reply to: #41374 Thanks for another great argument to move away from PHP asap. > that we have decided to go with backslash as new separator for > namespaces. --- ## #41385 — Greg Beaver — 2008-10-26T15:29:15+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/41374#41385 · In reply to: #41377 Stan Vassilev | FM wrote: > > Hi, > > I want to thank you all for opting for the technically sound, clear and > performant solution. Of course some users will never understand the > precise reasons :: was avoided, but it's something we'll have to live > with, given some past design choices in PHP. > > Regarding "foo\tbar" turning into "foo[tab]bar", I just wanted to throw > it out there, although I don't think it's a great idea. We have only few > escape combinations in string literals which can also be in a valid > identifier: > > \t \n \r > > There are also some which aren't a problem since they can't be in a > valid identifier: > > \x.. \0 \\ \$ \' \" \{..} etc. > > So the problem is with exactly three combos: \t, \n and \r. In the few > places PHP takes class/function identifiers as strings, TAB, CR and LF > could be interpolated back into the two characters they express, since > TAB, CR and LF aren't valid on their own in identifiers, so ambiguity is > not possible. there are other escape sequences (such as \f) > Those places of the top of my mind are: new $class(), $class::property, > call_user_*(), _autoload, and all other places accepting callbacks. > > This would mean both of those will work correctly: "foo\\tbar" and > "foo\tbar" when used as an identifier. > > Think of it as a plan B in case people cause a big fuss about it (which > I think they won't: think about escaping of windows file paths and > escaping in regex pattern, we're doing just fine there). I don't see this as a real problem, simply because when one makes a mistake, it is obvious. A fatal error is displayed with the offending class name/function name/constant name (yes, namespace constants die with fatal error if they are not found, unlike traditional un-namespaced constants). Although it may be possible to magically replace escaped characters, this could have unintended side effects. For instance, if a user is instantiating a class based on external input, it would introduce a new way to have unexpected behavior, as newlines would be converted to \n or \r. As I stated in my last message on the subject, the best approach for any string is to always use single quotes. You're far less likely to run into trouble. This has been true for years, and is not changed by namespaces or any other addition in 5.3 Shall we let this one go? Greg --- ## #41413 — Guilherme Blanco — 2008-10-27T04:16:35+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/41374#41413 · In reply to: #41385 Hi guys, I'm really interested to read the IRC conversation logs. Does anyone recorded it? Regards, > Stan Vassilev | FM wrote: > > […] > > there are other escape sequences (such as \f) > > > […] > > I don't see this as a real problem, simply because when one makes a > mistake, it is obvious. A fatal error is displayed with the offending > class name/function name/constant name (yes, namespace constants die > with fatal error if they are not found, unlike traditional un-namespaced > constants). Although it may be possible to magically replace escaped > characters, this could have unintended side effects. For instance, if a > user is instantiating a class based on external input, it would > introduce a new way to have unexpected behavior, as newlines would be > converted to \n or \r. > > As I stated in my last message on the subject, the best approach for any > string is to always use single quotes. You're far less likely to run > into trouble. This has been true for years, and is not changed by > namespaces or any other addition in 5.3 > > Shall we let this one go? > > Greg > > -- > > > > -- Guilherme Blanco - Web Developer CBC - Certified Bindows Consultant Cell Phone: +55 (16) 9166-6902 MSN: guilhermeblanco@hotmail.com URL: http://blog.bisna.com Rio de Janeiro - RJ/Brazil --- ## #41414 — crrodriguez@suse.de — 2008-10-27T04:17:08+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/41374#41414 · In reply to: #41374 Lukas Kahwe Smith escribió: > The result is that we have decided to go with > backslash as new separator for namespaces. Im truly sorry, looking at the horrendously ugly example code, I just hope the average joe programmer dont touch this feature and stay with class prefixes for sanity sake. I understand why there was not other suitable alternative though :-( My sincere condolences. -- "A computer is like an Old Testament god, with a lot of rules and no mercy. " Cristian Rodríguez R. Platform/OpenSUSE - Core Services SUSE LINUX Products GmbH Research & Development http://www.opensuse.org/ --- ## #41415 — Josh Davis — 2008-10-27T04:24:31+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/41374#41415 · In reply to: #41413 2008/10/27 Guilherme Blanco : > Hi guys, > > > I'm really interested to read the IRC conversation logs. > Does anyone recorded it? If you follow the link [1] from the first mail, you'll find the log you're looking for in the References section. [1] http://wiki.php.net/rfc/namespaceseparator --- ## #41416 — Josh Davis — 2008-10-27T04:41:30+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/41374#41416 · In reply to: #41414 2008/10/27 Cristian Rodríguez : > Im truly sorry, looking at the horrendously ugly example code, I just > hope the average joe programmer dont touch this feature and stay with > class prefixes for sanity sake. If by "don't touch" you mean "don't even try" then I'd say it's not a very good advice. I've tried Greg's patch [1] the day this thread was created. Even if I wasn't terribly happy with the choice (still beats the triple-colon in my opinion, though), even if I had to spend half an hour to convert my files to the new namespace separator (that's why it's called the "bleeding" edge I guess) and even if the first few minutes were uncomfortable, I'm now 36 hours after committing the changes to my personal code repository and the backslash doesn't even feel weird anymore. You just have to use it. It took a while to get used to PHP 5's object model, it will take a while to get used to PHP 5.3's namespacing. -JD [1] http://wiki.php.net/rfc/backslashnamespaces#patch --- ## #41444 — Ilia Alshanetsky — 2008-10-27T12:30:02+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/41374#41444 · In reply to: #41374 Thanks for all your hard work guys. While \ separator is a bit weird, I wholeheartedly support the decision to use a distinct separator for namespaces. > Hi all, > > Thx to the initiative of Scott and Steph we had an IRC discussion > with several code developers. The result is that we have decided to > go with backslash as new separator for namespaces. The IRC log that > illustrates why we in the end decided to go with changing the > separator and the final decision on backslash can be found on the > wiki [1]. > > Greg is working on a patch, however Dmitry said he will assist even > though he was actually opposed to the decision we made in the end. I > very much appreciate Dmitry accepting this decision in such a > professional manner. > > At the same time I hope that all people that have participated in > this discussion accept this decision as one that was made by a > sufficiently large subset of the development community. We did not > take the decision lightly but we felt confident that this decision > is for the best of PHP going forward. > > As the patch is still under development it is yet unclear how this > will affect the scheduling PHP 5.3. > > regards, > Lukas Kahwe Smith > mls@pooteeweet.org > > [1] http://wiki.php.net/rfc/namespaceseparator > > -- > > > Ilia Alshanetsky --- ## #41446 — Marco — 2008-10-27T12:36:36+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/41374#41446 · In reply to: #41444 2008/10/27 Ilia Alshanetsky > Thanks for all your hard work guys. While \ separator is a bit weird, I > wholeheartedly support the decision to use a distinct separator for > namespaces. > Totally agree, Originally I thought WTF they've chosen \ but once I got past all the FUD and really thought about it then it makes sense. Thanks for stepping up to the plate and making what wasn't a very easy decision! Regards Marco --- ## #41479 — Andrei Zmievski — 2008-10-27T18:50:52+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/41374#41479 · In reply to: #41384 You're welcome. Benjamin Schulz wrote: > Thanks for another great argument to move away from PHP asap. > > > > > […]