# Short syntax for array literals [...] - Thread: https://externals.io/message/37786 - Original archive: https://news-web.php.net/php.internals/37786 - Started by Stan Vassilev | FM on 2008-05-22T02:12:49+00:00 - Messages: 93 - Page 1 of 4: messages 1 to 25 (25 per page, add `?page=N` to the URL) - Next page: https://externals.io/message/37786.md?page=2 - Reply by email to internals@lists.php.net - More for agents: search with https://externals.io/search.md?q={query} · JSON API at https://externals.io/api · documentation at https://externals.io/llms.txt --- ## #37786 — Stan Vassilev | FM — 2008-05-22T02:12:49+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/37786#37786 Hi, I hear this often by other developers and I tend to agree with them, that arrays are used often, and often nested, so that having a long syntax for array literals tend to produce less legible code than in other scriping languages. $a = array(array(1,2), array(3,4), 5, 6); $b = array('a' => 1, 'b' =>2); We use arrays in our configurations, in passing complex parameters to functions, fetching information from databases, basically everything. So it adds up. Some frameworks have somewhat funny attempts to remedy this by introducing "shortcuts" like this: function a() { return func_get-args(); }. Of course this doesn't work when you need to specify the key name, and the overhead isn't worth it. It looks as there may not be a specific reason not to allow the JS syntax as an alternative syntax (while keeping the current one in parallel): $a = [[1, 2], [3, 4], 5, 6]; $b = ['a' => 1, 'b' =>2]; There shouldn't be confusion to the parser as the brackets aren't preceded by an identifier. Was this discussed before on the list? Regards, Stan Vassilev --- ## #37787 — Felipe Pena — 2008-05-22T02:20:49+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/37786#37787 · In reply to: #37786 Hello Em Qui, 2008-05-22 às 05:12 +0300, Stan Vassilev | FM escreveu: > Was this discussed before on the list? Yes. http://marc.info/?l=php-internals&m=119995972028293&w=2 > > Regards, > Stan Vassilev -- Regards, Felipe Pena. --- ## #37788 — Stanislav Malyshev — 2008-05-22T03:53:42+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/37786#37788 · In reply to: #37786 Hi! > $a = [[1, 2], [3, 4], 5, 6]; Proposed twice at least, but PHP developer community doesn't seem to like it. -- Stanislav Malyshev, Zend Software Architect stas@zend.com http://www.zend.com/ (408)253-8829 MSN: stas@zend.com --- ## #37792 — Pierre Joye — 2008-05-22T09:46:33+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/37786#37792 · In reply to: #37788 > Hi! > > > […] > > Proposed twice at least, but PHP developer community doesn't seem to like > it. Many of us like it. And the end users I know like it too. Cheers, -- Pierre http://blog.thepimp.net | http://www.libgd.org --- ## #37793 — Antony Dovgal — 2008-05-22T09:56:57+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/37786#37793 · In reply to: #37792 > > > […] > > Many of us like it. And the end users I know like it too. I see no advantages here, only another way to do already possible thing and yet another way to confuse people. But starting this discussion from the very beginning makes very little sense. -- Wbr, Antony Dovgal --- ## #37795 — Pierre Joye — 2008-05-22T10:33:26+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/37786#37795 · In reply to: #37793 > > > […] > > I see no advantages here, only another way to do already possible thing and > yet another way to confuse people. > But starting this discussion from the very beginning makes very little > sense. Agreed, we should simply go through a vote and be done with that. -- Pierre http://blog.thepimp.net | http://www.libgd.org --- ## #37801 — johannes@php.net — 2008-05-22T13:56:29+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/37786#37801 · In reply to: #37795 Hi, > Agreed, we should simply go through a vote and be done with that. Vote until all are annoyed and don't vote against it anymore just to stop voting? ("it's less annoying to have it than vote about it every two months") There was some voting about this feature quite recently, don't have the archive link at hand. johannes --- ## #37802 — Pierre Joye — 2008-05-22T14:29:02+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/37786#37802 · In reply to: #37801 > Hi, > > > > […] > > Vote until all are annoyed and don't vote against it anymore just to > stop voting? ("it's less annoying to have it than vote about it every > two months") There was some voting about this feature quite recently, > don't have the archive link at hand. Really? I missed the conclusion then. But if there was one, let begin to count. -- Pierre http://blog.thepimp.net | http://www.libgd.org --- ## #37804 — Philip Olson — 2008-05-22T15:55:25+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/37786#37804 · In reply to: #37802 > On Thu, May 22, 2008 at 3:56 PM, Johannes Schlüter > wrote: > > […] > > Really? I missed the conclusion then. But if there was one, let > begin to count. Whether something is concluded or not is in the eye of the beholder... but it appears the conclusion here is: This is too much [unnecessary] magic: - http://php.markmail.org/message/k2xoyx5ql65vj6r6 Regards, Philip --- ## #37805 — Stanislav Malyshev — 2008-05-22T16:18:07+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/37786#37805 · In reply to: #37792 Hi! > Many of us like it. And the end users I know like it too. You don't need to convince me :) -- Stanislav Malyshev, Zend Software Architect stas@zend.com http://www.zend.com/ (408)253-8829 MSN: stas@zend.com --- ## #37815 — Andi Gutmans — 2008-05-23T04:16:14+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/37786#37815 · In reply to: #37804 Not sure we really reached a conclusion. I think it was inconclusive and people got tired. As I've stated in the past in general I don't like the ability to do things in more than one way but in this case I think the advantages of the cleaner syntax outweigh the fact that we'd have two ways. I'd prefer to support [] but I don't think it's a huge deal if we don't do it. It would make PHP a bit nicer :) Andi --- ## #37816 — Brian Moon — 2008-05-23T04:30:01+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/37786#37816 · In reply to: #37815 Andi Gutmans wrote: > Not sure we really reached a conclusion. I think it was inconclusive and people got tired. > > As I've stated in the past in general I don't like the ability to do things in more than one way but in this case I think the advantages of the cleaner syntax outweigh the fact that we'd have two ways. I'd prefer to support [] but I don't think it's a huge deal if we don't do it. It would make PHP a bit nicer :) > > Andi I almost typed it the other day not thinking. Been doing a lot of YUI and {} and [] are growing on me. +1 -- Brian Moon Senior Developer/Engineer ------------------------------ When you care enough to spend the very least. http://dealnews.com/ --- ## #37819 — Lokrain — 2008-05-23T08:28:47+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/37786#37819 · In reply to: #37816 Hello, -100. This discussion is closed long ago. --- ## #37820 — Pierre Joye — 2008-05-23T08:59:17+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/37786#37820 · In reply to: #37816 > Andi Gutmans wrote: > > […] > > I almost typed it the other day not thinking. Been doing a lot of YUI and > {} and [] are growing on me. > > +1 For the record here, +1. -- Pierre http://blog.thepimp.net | http://www.libgd.org --- ## #37821 — Alexey Zakhlestin — 2008-05-23T09:06:42+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/37786#37821 · In reply to: #37820 > For the record here, +1. +1 (for informational purposes, do not have karma to actually vote) -- Alexey Zakhlestin http://blog.milkfarmsoft.com/ --- ## #37822 — Jani Taskinen — 2008-05-23T11:45:51+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/37786#37822 · In reply to: #37801 Johannes Schlüter wrote: > Hi, > > > > […] > > Vote until all are annoyed and don't vote against it anymore just to > stop voting? ("it's less annoying to have it than vote about it every > two months") There was some voting about this feature quite recently, > don't have the archive link at hand. I vote for no votes. They're meaningless anyway. Whoever commits first, wins. ;) Pierre: Care to reply to my email (sent to pierre.dev@gmail.com several times now..) --Jani --- ## #37824 — Eric Coleman — 2008-05-23T13:44:20+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/37786#37824 · In reply to: #37822 +1 > Johannes Schlüter wrote: > > […] > > I vote for no votes. They're meaningless anyway. Whoever commits first, > wins. ;) > > Pierre: Care to reply to my email (sent to pierre.dev@gmail.com several > times now..) > > --Jani --- ## #37831 — Yi Wang — 2008-05-23T15:18:10+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/37786#37831 · In reply to: #37786 I'm not using this syntax. But I don't oppose it. > > Hi, > > I hear this often by other developers and I tend to agree with them, that arrays are used often, and often nested, so that having a long syntax for array literals tend to produce less legible code than in other scriping languages. > > $a = array(array(1,2), array(3,4), 5, 6); > > $b = array('a' => 1, 'b' =>2); > > We use arrays in our configurations, in passing complex parameters to functions, fetching information from databases, basically everything. So it adds up. > > Some frameworks have somewhat funny attempts to remedy this by introducing "shortcuts" like this: function a() { return func_get-args(); }. Of course this doesn't work when you need to specify the key name, and the overhead isn't worth it. > > It looks as there may not be a specific reason not to allow the JS syntax as an alternative syntax (while keeping the current one in parallel): > > $a = [[1, 2], [3, 4], 5, 6]; > > $b = ['a' => 1, 'b' =>2]; > > There shouldn't be confusion to the parser as the brackets aren't preceded by an identifier. > > Was this discussed before on the list? > > Regards, > > Stan Vassilev -- Regards, Wang Yi --- ## #37921 — Sebastian Deutsch — 2008-05-27T20:53:44+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/37786#37921 · In reply to: #37786 dont have karma - but I would love it! so +1 here. would it make sense to write an RFC? cheers Sebastian Stan Vassilev | FM schrieb: > Hi, > > I hear this often by other developers and I tend to agree with them, that arrays are used often, and often nested, so that having a long syntax for array literals tend to produce less legible code than in other scriping languages. > > $a = array(array(1,2), array(3,4), 5, 6); > > $b = array('a' => 1, 'b' =>2); > > We use arrays in our configurations, in passing complex parameters to functions, fetching information from databases, basically everything. So it adds up. > > Some frameworks have somewhat funny attempts to remedy this by introducing "shortcuts" like this: function a() { return func_get-args(); }. Of course this doesn't work when you need to specify the key name, and the overhead isn't worth it. > > It looks as there may not be a specific reason not to allow the JS syntax as an alternative syntax (while keeping the current one in parallel): > > $a = [[1, 2], [3, 4], 5, 6]; > > $b = ['a' => 1, 'b' =>2]; > > There shouldn't be confusion to the parser as the brackets aren't preceded by an identifier. > > Was this discussed before on the list? > > Regards, > Stan Vassilev --- ## #37922 — Sebastian Deutsch — 2008-05-27T22:58:24+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/37786#37922 · In reply to: #37921 fyi - i added a RFC http://wiki.php.net/rfc/shortsyntaxforarrays please add your votes cheers Sebastian Sebastian Deutsch schrieb: > dont have karma - but I would love it! so +1 here. > would it make sense to write an RFC? > > cheers > > Sebastian > > Stan Vassilev | FM schrieb: > > […] --- ## #37923 — Stanislav Malyshev — 2008-05-27T23:10:34+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/37786#37923 · In reply to: #37922 > please add your votes I'm +1. BTW - how hard would it be to add voting interface to the wiki? -- Stanislav Malyshev, Zend Software Architect stas@zend.com http://www.zend.com/ (408)253-8829 MSN: stas@zend.com --- ## #37924 — Jani Taskinen — 2008-05-27T23:14:37+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/37786#37924 · In reply to: #37923 Stanislav Malyshev kirjoitti: > > […] > > I'm +1. > > BTW - how hard would it be to add voting interface to the wiki? For the record: I'm -1. array() is enough. Ridiculous idea to begin with..and please no more voting, isn't there enough spam already? --Jani --- ## #37925 — Stanislav Malyshev — 2008-05-27T23:18:28+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/37786#37925 · In reply to: #37924 Hi! > Ridiculous idea to begin with..and please no more voting, isn't there > enough spam already? What do you mean "no more voting"? -- Stanislav Malyshev, Zend Software Architect stas@zend.com http://www.zend.com/ (408)253-8829 MSN: stas@zend.com --- ## #37926 — Sebastian Deutsch — 2008-05-27T23:21:24+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/37786#37926 · In reply to: #37815 Andi Gutmans schrieb: > Not sure we really reached a conclusion. I think it was inconclusive and people got tired. > > As I've stated in the past in general I don't like the ability to do things in more than one way but in this case I think the advantages of the cleaner syntax outweigh the fact that we'd have two ways. I'd prefer to support [] but I don't think it's a huge deal if we don't do it. It would make PHP a bit nicer :) > > Andi > can I take this one as a +1? Sebastian --- ## #37927 — Rasmus Lerdorf — 2008-05-28T00:27:40+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/37786#37927 · In reply to: #37923 Stanislav Malyshev wrote: > > […] > > I'm +1. I'm ok with it as well. Like I said over a year ago (*), it is a syntax very familiar to web developers and it feels natural to most people. (*) http://marc.info/?l=php-internals&m=117060700805108&w=2 -Rasmus --- Next page: https://externals.io/message/37786.md?page=2