# voting - Thread: https://externals.io/message/34761 - Original archive: https://news-web.php.net/php.internals/34761 - Started by Lukas Kahwe Smith on 2008-01-12T13:04:51+00:00 - Messages: 13 - Reply by email to internals@lists.php.net - More for agents: search with https://externals.io/search.md?q={query} · JSON API at https://externals.io/api · documentation at https://externals.io/llms.txt --- ## #34761 — Lukas Kahwe Smith — 2008-01-12T13:04:51+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/34761#34761 Hi, I think its painfully obvious that a system to manage the voting is needed. Like I said, ideally it should also have an email interface. People should be able to vote from +1 to -1 and be able to add a comment. Notifications should be send to this list about the start and final result of the vote. Voting itself should be split by people with access to cvs.php.net and those that do not. This is open source, everybody can voice their opinions, but the developers of the project should have final say. However if the end user and developer votes diverge greatly it will still be an important hint to take into account. That being said, end user polling imho belongs somewhere else and before the final developer vote. The features of PEPr in PEAR cover all of this quite well, except for the email interface. I personally would not need that and maybe its too much of a hassle to get this done in a reliable and secure way. regards, Lukas --- ## #34763 — Gregory Beaver — 2008-01-12T14:57:10+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/34761#34763 · In reply to: #34761 Lukas Kahwe Smith wrote: > Hi, > > I think its painfully obvious that a system to manage the voting is > needed. Like I said, ideally it should also have an email interface. > People should be able to vote from +1 to -1 and be able to add a > comment. Notifications should be send to this list about the start and > final result of the vote. > > Voting itself should be split by people with access to cvs.php.net and > those that do not. This is open source, everybody can voice their > opinions, but the developers of the project should have final say. > However if the end user and developer votes diverge greatly it will > still be an important hint to take into account. That being said, end > user polling imho belongs somewhere else and before the final developer > vote. > > The features of PEPr in PEAR cover all of this quite well, except for > the email interface. I personally would not need that and maybe its too > much of a hassle to get this done in a reliable and secure way. PEPr, unfortunately, is very tightly bound to the pearweb code, and would be a big hassle to separate as it currently stands. We have been working (by we, I mostly mean Helgi) for over a year now trying to clean up pearweb and still are only about halfway through the codebase, but when PEPr is tackled, I will let you all know. Of course, if there is someone enterprising who wants to assist with that specific part of the cleanup, the code is in cvs at pearweb/. PEPr-specific code is located in pearweb/include/pepr, pearweb/public_html/pepr, and pearweb/cron/pepr.php. Thanks, Greg --- ## #34766 — David Coallier — 2008-01-13T00:25:48+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/34761#34766 · In reply to: #34763 > Lukas Kahwe Smith wrote: > > […] > > PEPr, unfortunately, is very tightly bound to the pearweb code, and > would be a big hassle to separate as it currently stands. We have been > working (by we, I mostly mean Helgi) for over a year now trying to clean > up pearweb and still are only about halfway through the codebase, but > when PEPr is tackled, I will let you all know. Of course, if there is > someone enterprising who wants to assist with that specific part of the > cleanup, the code is in cvs at pearweb/. PEPr-specific code is located > in pearweb/include/pepr, pearweb/public_html/pepr, and > pearweb/cron/pepr.php. > And if that entrepreneur-person needs tips about the pearweb code or "mentoring", I'll be glad to help. > Thanks, > Greg > > > -- > > > > -- David Coallier, Founder & Software Architect, Agora Production (http://agoraproduction.com) 51.42.06.70.18 --- ## #34771 — Stanislav Malyshev — 2008-01-14T01:06:06+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/34761#34771 · In reply to: #34761 > I think its painfully obvious that a system to manage the voting is > needed. Like I said, ideally it should also have an email interface. Voting to achieve what? -- Stanislav Malyshev, Zend Software Architect stas@zend.com http://www.zend.com/ (408)253-8829 MSN: stas@zend.com --- ## #34772 — Pierre — 2008-01-14T01:34:20+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/34761#34772 · In reply to: #34771 > > […] > > Voting to achieve what? Fair decisions in a simpler, effective and right manner (and not discutable, ideally). -- Pierre http://blog.thepimp.net | http://www.libgd.org --- ## #34773 — Stanislav Malyshev — 2008-01-14T01:58:58+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/34761#34773 · In reply to: #34772 > > […] > > Fair decisions in a simpler, effective and right manner (and not > discutable, ideally). I do not consider "fairness", whatever that could mean, having anything to do with technical decisions regarding PHP, neither I think counting votes is the process that allows to arrive to a decision best for PHP. I personally know very little about some areas of PHP code, and it make little sense that my vote would carry the same weight as opinion of the person that wrote and maintains the code. There's nothing in arithmetic majority of people that makes any decision better, more effective, more right and not disputable. Thousands of people can be wrong as easy as one person can be, and one person can be as right as a thousand. Also, vast majority of PHP users never read this list and would know nothing of any votes held or announced here, so representing that as a poll reflecting opinion of a millions-wide PHP community makes no sense whatsoever. -- Stanislav Malyshev, Zend Software Architect stas@zend.com http://www.zend.com/ (408)253-8829 MSN: stas@zend.com --- ## #34775 — Pierre — 2008-01-14T03:34:41+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/34761#34775 · In reply to: #34773 > > […] > > I do not consider "fairness", whatever that could mean, having anything > to do with technical decisions regarding PHP, neither I think counting > votes is the process that allows to arrive to a decision best for PHP. There is many decisions that directly affect what users can do or not. What I have to use daily or not. I do not need to know perfectly the portion of the PHP sources to take a wise decision or choise. It is also a process to use when we fail to find a compromise. I still strongly believe in our self discipline and control. -- Pierre http://blog.thepimp.net | http://www.libgd.org --- ## #34786 — Ronald Chmara — 2008-01-15T07:12:50+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/34761#34786 · In reply to: #34773 > > […] > > I do not consider "fairness", whatever that could mean, having > anything to do with technical decisions regarding PHP, I vote that PHP should get a pony! Who's with me! Voting is good in that it helps express the wills and desires *of those who vote*. Some of those opinions may be wrong, insane, or silly, but it provides a means to evaluate an opinion professed by a group, rather than as an individual. IMSHO, for PHP, voting is an *informative*, not *conformative*, process. Let's take two arguments, with different heritages, authors, and origins. Suoshin patches. mysql_session patches. We could have 100% voted desire to make all of these HEAD, and still say "No." Voting expresses voter *will*, not outcome. For the former and latter, these are feature, not technical, requests. > neither I think counting votes is the process that allows to arrive > to a decision best for PHP. That's why votes influence, but do not determine, outcomes. > I personally know very little about some areas of PHP code, It's a big club. We should get T-shirts. > and it make little sense that my vote would carry the same weight > as opinion of the person that wrote and maintains the code. There's > nothing in arithmetic majority of people that makes any decision > better, more effective, more right and not disputable. Thousands of > people can be wrong as easy as one person can be, and one person > can be as right as a thousand. True, that. For those not versed in US-style democracy, the way we do it here is to elect (theoretically) somebody with a clue. Their one "clue" easily vote trumps thousands. The thing is, is that, well, if Rasmus, Zeev, Andi, Wez, *whoever* has a big voice, stopped listening or went insane or *whatever*, we have to have a way of fixing such a case. > Also, vast majority of PHP users never read this list and would > know nothing of any votes held or announced here, so representing > that as a poll reflecting opinion of a millions-wide PHP community > makes no sense whatsoever. Agreed. -Ronabop --- ## #34791 — Lukas Kahwe Smith — 2008-01-15T08:34:43+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/34761#34791 · In reply to: #34775 > > > […] > > There is many decisions that directly affect what users can do or not. > What I have to use daily or not. I do not need to know perfectly the > portion of the PHP sources to take a wise decision or choise. > > It is also a process to use when we fail to find a compromise. I still > strongly believe in our self discipline and control. We have some decisions that are mostly questions of taste that do not require specific expertise beyond being a trusted member of the community. The array syntax question imho is a good example of this. There are other decisions that should be approached differently. But the voting has traditionally been used in the project, only figuring out reliable results was needlessly hard. Because people did not participate (either because they did not know about the vote, because they thought that they have expressed their opinion before the person that tallied up the vote started the tally, because its impossible to figure out the background of the person voting etc.). regards, Lukas --- ## #34787 — Larry Garfield — 2008-01-15T08:48:40+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/34761#34787 · In reply to: #34786 > > > […] > > I vote that PHP should get a pony! Who's with me! I am! :-) > IMSHO, for PHP, voting is an *informative*, not *conformative*, process. So let's call it what it is, and what, honestly, the array [] thread seemed like: It's not a vote, it's a poll. Confusion solved. :-) -- Larry Garfield AIM: LOLG42 larry@garfieldtech.com ICQ: 6817012 "If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the possession of every one, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it." -- Thomas Jefferson --- ## #34788 — BuildSmart — 2008-01-15T09:17:00+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/34761#34788 · In reply to: #34786 > > > […] > > I vote that PHP should get a pony! Who's with me! > > Voting is good in that it helps express the wills and desires *of > those who vote*. Some of those opinions may be wrong, insane, or > silly, but it provides a means to evaluate an opinion professed by > a group, rather than as an individual. > > IMSHO, for PHP, voting is an *informative*, not *conformative*, > process. > > Let's take two arguments, with different heritages, authors, and > origins. > > Suoshin patches. > mysql_session patches. > > We could have 100% voted desire to make all of these HEAD, and > still say "No." > > Voting expresses voter *will*, not outcome. For the former and > latter, these are feature, not technical, requests. > > > […] > > That's why votes influence, but do not determine, outcomes. Now that's a crock of shit. Related to PHP it has been my experience that the vote is just a whitewash as the outcome has already been predetermined or that the votes of only a select few are used as the basis for a decision. If your going to put something to a vote like electing a president or including a feature in PHP and you decide against the people's choice then your basically saying that you'll only accept the votes as long as it coincides with your decision, yeah a really nice demonstration of false democracy and deception in action. People are not interested in voting on the off-chance that maybe you'll accept the outcome of the vote, they expect you to meet the obligations for the outcome of that vote. Basically you've confirmed it's not a vote, it's a suggestion and the suggestion wont bear any weight to the outcome if you don't believe the suggestion has any merit or that you don't like the suggestion. If you propose a list of options to be voted on then accept the outcome of the vote, if there is no chance that an option will be accepted despite it's vote then the option should not be proposed, then you don't have to worry about insulting your integrity and disappointing the people because their choice is not accepted. > > > […] > > It's a big club. We should get T-shirts. > > > […] > > True, that. > > For those not versed in US-style democracy, the way we do it here > is to elect (theoretically) somebody with a clue. Their one "clue" > easily vote trumps thousands. > > The thing is, is that, well, if Rasmus, Zeev, Andi, Wez, *whoever* > has a big voice, stopped listening or went insane or *whatever*, we > have to have a way of fixing such a case. These are guaranteed by the rules and policies written for and established by the people which can be used as a footprint, the PHP king is elected and he can be impeached along with an array of PHP representatives who represent the different areas of PHP, the representatives submit what the people of their territory or area of expertise want, the house which is the collection of these representatives votes based on the arguments offered before the house and anything passed by the house becomes effected or is then passed along to a vote of the people, that is democracy. > > > […] Of course not, there are a significant number of end users who believe that the PHP dev team is nothing more than a collection of pompous assholes based on their limited minor experiences and staying away means less headaches and aggravation in ones life. The community is successful only because those involved believe the project has merit and a portion of the end users are grateful for the community of developers because they have a better understanding of it's inner-workings and value. If you want to create a true public voting environment then add something to the website that allows for people to come and vote, a single vote based on a captcha and email address vote confirmation to prevent manipulation of the voting system and accept the outcome of the vote. You can also create an e-mail voting system, they send an email and a confirmation requesting a reply is sent, anything that does not get a confirmation reply or is undeliverable is probably invalid and the vote doesn't count. There are endless possibilities to a public voting system but the key would be in awareness, if the people don't know then they wont participate and there's no guarantee that even if they do know that they'll participate, that old adage comes to mind, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. > > Agreed. > > -Ronabop > > -- > > > > -- Dale --- ## #34789 — Pierre — 2008-01-15T09:22:52+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/34761#34789 · In reply to: #34786 Hi, > > > […] > > I vote that PHP should get a pony! Who's with me! Besides the completely useless rant you mad here (joking or not), you miss one important paragraph. As a convenience, I will paste here again: > It is also a process to use when we fail to find a compromise. I still > strongly believe in our self discipline and control. -- Pierre http://blog.thepimp.net | http://www.libgd.org --- ## #34793 — Richard Lynch — 2008-01-15T21:55:46+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/34761#34793 · In reply to: #34788 I don't believe the PHP Dev Team has ever claimed that votes counted for anything at all. IIRC, the last known Dev Team structure was defined as "benevolent junta" I do not think anybody who can count past 10 with their shoes on can mistake "benevolent junta" for a vote-based democracy. :-) Larry may have said it best "call it a poll and be done with it" -- Some people have a "gift" link here. Know what I want? I want you to buy a CD from some indie artist. http://cdbaby.com/from/lynch Yeah, I get a buck. So?