# RIP PHP 4? - Thread: https://externals.io/message/30580 - Original archive: https://news-web.php.net/php.internals/30580 - Started by Andi Gutmans on 2007-07-07T04:37:40+00:00 - Messages: 33 - Page 1 of 2: messages 1 to 25 (25 per page, add `?page=N` to the URL) - Next page: https://externals.io/message/30580.md?page=2 - Reply by email to internals@lists.php.net - More for agents: search with https://externals.io/search.md?q={query} · JSON API at https://externals.io/api · documentation at https://externals.io/llms.txt --- ## #30580 — Andi Gutmans — 2007-07-07T04:37:40+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/30580#30580 I'd suggest something close to what Rasmus suggested: a) We make a clear statement on PHP.net that at the end of the year we plan to discontinue bug fixes for PHP 4 except for security fixes. b) We will discontinue supporting PHP 4 on 8/8/8 (because it sounds good and gives people about a year). I also suggest to move PHP 4 downloads to the museum. I suggest though to make a clear visible link from php.net/downloads.php to the museum and make a clear statement that PHP 4 has moved (I am sure there are still many who look for it for application compatibiity reasons). A year may seem a long time but it isn't when a company has to port a big application over. Also don't forget that one of the reasons so many people dislike Microsoft is because they constantly screw customers with support for older versions. There's nothing wrong with us being better on this front even if it comes at the expense of adoption of newer versions. Also I think just making the above mentioned statements and moving the downloads will have an immediate impact and won't linger things for another year. Andi > -----Original Message----- > From: Rasmus Lerdorf [mailto:rasmus@lerdorf.com] > Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 8:59 AM > To: Antony Dovgal > Cc: Derick Rethans; PHP Developers Mailing List > Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4? > > Antony Dovgal wrote: > > […] > realistically do that yet. > > […] > the status > > […] > answer to > > […] > anymore, install PHP5" > > […] > critical security > > […] > > When was the last time we did a PHP4-only bug fix? > > My fear is that the impact of the no-more-support statement is hurt > when we qualify it with the fact that nothing is really changing. > > I'd be more in favour of a statement that put a final death date on it > which means no new releases of any sort. We could still say > security-fixes only by the end of the year and then death by 08/08/08 > or something like that. > > -Rasmus > > -- > To unsubscribe, > visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php --- ## #30581 — Rasmus Lerdorf — 2007-07-07T05:25:32+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/30580#30581 · In reply to: #30580 Andi Gutmans wrote: > I'd suggest something close to what Rasmus suggested: > a) We make a clear statement on PHP.net that at the end of the year we > plan to discontinue bug fixes for PHP 4 except for security fixes. > b) We will discontinue supporting PHP 4 on 8/8/8 (because it sounds good > and gives people about a year). The number 8 also has lots of meaning in Chinese culture. For example the Beijing Olympics will begin on 8/8/8 at 8:08:08 pm because the word for 8 sounds like 发 which means prosper or wealth. -Rasmus --- ## #30582 — Andi Gutmans — 2007-07-07T05:33:58+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/30580#30582 · In reply to: #30581 Cool :) > -----Original Message----- > From: Rasmus Lerdorf [mailto:rasmus@lerdorf.com] > Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 10:26 PM > To: Andi Gutmans > Cc: PHP Developers Mailing List > Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4? > > Andi Gutmans wrote: > > […] > the year we > > […] > > The number 8 also has lots of meaning in Chinese culture. > For example the Beijing Olympics will begin on 8/8/8 at > 8:08:08 pm because the word for 8 sounds like 发 which means > prosper or wealth. > > -Rasmus --- ## #30588 — Jani Taskinen — 2007-07-07T13:01:00+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/30580#30588 · In reply to: #30580 Andi Gutmans wrote: > I'd suggest something close to what Rasmus suggested: > a) We make a clear statement on PHP.net that at the end of the year we > plan to discontinue bug fixes for PHP 4 except for security fixes. > b) We will discontinue supporting PHP 4 on 8/8/8 (because it sounds good > and gives people about a year). Gives a year? Nice. Suddenly we've got some kind of time machine here? :D It's weird that people think of releases like the thing suddenly vanishes from all servers it's installed on or it stops working altogether when we're just saying that we drop support for it. I wish that WAS possible...but unfortunately people still can install it from existing tar balls..and it will work just fine. > I also suggest to move PHP 4 downloads to the museum. I suggest though > to make a clear visible link from php.net/downloads.php to the museum > and make a clear statement that PHP 4 has moved (I am sure there are > still many who look for it for application compatibiity reasons). This to be done immediately? > A year may seem a long time but it isn't when a company has to port a > big application over. Also don't forget that one of the reasons so many Again, the existing installation won't stop working or vanish anywhere on the date we stop _support_ and don't release new versions of it.. :) --Jani --- ## #30592 — Derick Rethans — 2007-07-07T14:26:33+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/30580#30592 · In reply to: #30580 > I'd suggest something close to what Rasmus suggested: > a) We make a clear statement on PHP.net that at the end of the year we > plan to discontinue bug fixes for PHP 4 except for security fixes. > b) We will discontinue supporting PHP 4 on 8/8/8 (because it sounds good > and gives people about a year). > > I also suggest to move PHP 4 downloads to the museum. I suggest though > to make a clear visible link from php.net/downloads.php to the museum > and make a clear statement that PHP 4 has moved (I am sure there are > still many who look for it for application compatibiity reasons). A miracle, it seems like we're even reached consensus on this within a day :) I'll be preparing the patches to implement this while I'll pass by here. And I checked the museum page views, there were 1.2 million of them since april 20, 2006. Derick -- Derick Rethans http://derickrethans.nl | http://ez.no | http://xdebug.org --- ## #30593 — Andi Gutmans — 2007-07-07T16:01:33+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/30580#30593 · In reply to: #30588 See below: > -----Original Message----- > From: Jani Taskinen [mailto:jani.taskinen@sci.fi] > Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2007 6:01 AM > To: Andi Gutmans > Cc: PHP Developers Mailing List > Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4? > > Andi Gutmans wrote: > > […] > the year we > > […] > > Gives a year? Nice. Suddenly we've got some kind of time > machine here? :D > > It's weird that people think of releases like the thing > suddenly vanishes from all servers it's installed on or it > stops working altogether when we're just saying that we drop > support for it. I wish that WAS possible...but unfortunately > people still can install it from existing tar balls..and it > will work just fine. It's not the same. Not giving our users enough heads-up to plan, find the resources, migrate, test and redeploy is what Microsoft does to its users (ok so they do give some time but it's always too early and upgrade path is often much harder). I think we owe it to our users to be more friendly. For this time period they will require important bug fixes especially security fixes so I think it ends up being good for all. Also don't forget once we make a statement like this, many people will start planning their migration right away. > > […] > suggest though > > […] > the museum > > […] > there are > > […] > > This to be done immediately? Yes, I think we should do this immediately and be sure to make it clear where to get PHP 4 (clear message with clear visible link). But it will still "feel" 2nd rate to users. Andi --- ## #30615 — Stanislav Malyshev — 2007-07-08T09:22:33+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/30580#30615 · In reply to: #30581 > The number 8 also has lots of meaning in Chinese culture. For example > the Beijing Olympics will begin on 8/8/8 at 8:08:08 pm because the word > for 8 sounds like 发 which means prosper or wealth. Well, then I guess we have no choice but to declare official PHP 4 end-of-life to be on 8:08:08 pm too :) Now we only need to choose a suitable timezone :) -- Stanislav Malyshev, Zend Software Architect stas@zend.com http://www.zend.com/ (408)253-8829 MSN: stas@zend.com --- ## #30616 — Derick Rethans — 2007-07-08T09:46:08+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/30580#30616 · In reply to: #30615 > > […] > > Well, then I guess we have no choice but to declare official PHP 4 end-of-life > to be on 8:08:08 pm too :) Now we only need to choose a suitable timezone :) GMT+8 of course... Derick --- ## #30620 — Alain Williams — 2007-07-08T14:15:11+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/30580#30620 · In reply to: #30616 > > > > […] > > GMT+8 of course... Which, appropriately enough, includes China. So: support for PHP4 ends when the Olympics start. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3d/Timezones_optimized.png -- Alain Williams Linux Consultant - Mail systems, Web sites, Networking, Programmer, IT Lecturer. +44 (0) 787 668 0256 http://www.phcomp.co.uk/ Parliament Hill Computers Ltd. Registration Information: http://www.phcomp.co.uk/contact.php #include > > […] > > Which, appropriately enough, includes China. > > So: support for PHP4 ends when the Olympics start. one day porting to the next major version of PHP will be olympic ;) regards, Lukas --- ## #30622 — Keryx Web — 2007-07-08T18:09:34+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/30580#30622 · In reply to: #30616 > > […] Well, for us using the 24 hr clock I'd say 8:08:08 am (ante meridiem) as it otherwise will be 20:08:08 when we speak and write about this event. Lars Gunther --- ## #30627 — Rasmus Lerdorf — 2007-07-08T20:05:31+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/30580#30627 · In reply to: #30622 Keryx Web wrote: > > > […] > > Well, for us using the 24 hr clock I'd say 8:08:08 am (ante meridiem) as > it otherwise will be 20:08:08 when we speak and write about this event. Except no real geek would schedule anything for 8am. -R --- ## #30629 — Tomas Kuliavas — 2007-07-08T20:25:44+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/30580#30629 · In reply to: #30627 > > […] > > Except no real geek would schedule anything for 8am. Easy. Schedule it for 8am in China. Do it in Canada, UK or Israel. :) -- Tomas --- ## #30630 — David Coallier — 2007-07-08T21:21:07+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/30580#30630 · In reply to: #30629 > > […] > > Easy. Schedule it for 8am in China. Do it in Canada, UK or Israel. :) > What about 8/8/8 8pm in china and 01/01/08 Canada, UK, USA.. that way we can get rid of it quickly and if it's meaningful for chinese people to use the number 8, we can do it on 8/8/8 for them (irony/joke) ? Seriously.. I don't really see the point in keeping it for another year.. imho end of the year is great and more than enough time to upgrade, we've got to cut the cord sometimes.. why not keep it until 9/9/9 since it's 6/6/6 upside down and means the devil.. the end of things.. could also be the end of php4 > > -- > Tomas > > -- > > > > D --- ## #30631 — Andi Gutmans — 2007-07-08T23:03:44+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/30580#30631 · In reply to: #30630 Because some of us don't believe 6 months is enough time for the broad market to make the move. One year is more suitable. As we already stated the message would already be strong today and people wouldn't wait until the year ends with an end-of-life coming up. Andi > -----Original Message----- > From: david.coallier@gmail.com > [mailto:david.coallier@gmail.com] On Behalf Of David Coallier > Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 2:21 PM > To: Tomas Kuliavas > Cc: internals@lists.php.net > Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4? > > > > […] > official PHP > > […] > and write about this event. > > […] > Israel. :) > > […] > > What about 8/8/8 8pm in china and 01/01/08 Canada, UK, USA.. > that way we can get rid of it quickly and if it's meaningful > for chinese people to use the number 8, we can do it on 8/8/8 > for them (irony/joke) ? > Seriously.. I don't really see the point in keeping it for > another year.. imho end of the year is great and more than > enough time to upgrade, we've got to cut the cord sometimes.. > why not keep it until > 9/9/9 since it's 6/6/6 upside down and means the devil.. the > end of things.. could also be the end of php4 > > > […] > unsubscribe, > > […] > > > D > > -- > To > unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php --- ## #30632 — Tijnema — 2007-07-08T23:28:49+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/30580#30632 · In reply to: #30631 > Because some of us don't believe 6 months is enough time for the broad > market to make the move. > One year is more suitable. > As we already stated the message would already be strong today and > people wouldn't wait until the year ends with an end-of-life coming up. > Andi But after PHP4 is dropped, people can still use it, so if people really need to use it longer then they can just continue using it, once they are done they can still move on. Tijnema > > > […] > > -- > > > > -- Vote for PHP Color Coding in Gmail! -> http://gpcc.tijnema.info --- ## #30634 — Larry Garfield — 2007-07-09T00:06:49+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/30580#30634 · In reply to: #30631 I have to agree with Andi. The GoPHP5 effort wanted to have a fairly aggressive timeline because its main target is projects and shared hosts, and if it was too far in the future no one would notice. The involved projects also won't actually have their next feature release until later in the year some time. The PHP dev team, however, has a different set of targets. It has to include distros and business servers. A longer warning period is sensible. Which of course means that the sooner an EOL date is announced, the sooner PHP 4 can be retired. :-) Sometime next summer sounds reasonable, and I've no problem whatsoever with kitch dates[1]. [1] http://gophp5.org/faq#n9 > Because some of us don't believe 6 months is enough time for the broad > market to make the move. > One year is more suitable. > As we already stated the message would already be strong today and > people wouldn't wait until the year ends with an end-of-life coming up. > Andi > > > […] -- Larry Garfield AIM: LOLG42 larry@garfieldtech.com ICQ: 6817012 "If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the possession of every one, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it." -- Thomas Jefferson --- ## #30635 — Andi Gutmans — 2007-07-09T03:49:47+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/30580#30635 · In reply to: #30632 No. If they don't get security updates then they can't really use it anymore... > -----Original Message----- > From: Tijnema [mailto:tijnema@gmail.com] > Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 4:29 PM > To: Andi Gutmans > Cc: David Coallier; Tomas Kuliavas; internals@lists.php.net > Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4? > > > > […] > for the broad > > […] > end-of-life coming up. > > […] > > But after PHP4 is dropped, people can still use it, so if > people really need to use it longer then they can just > continue using it, once they are done they can still move on. > > Tijnema > > […] > only need to > > […] > for them > > […] > for another > > […] > the end of > > […] > unsubscribe, > > […] > unsubscribe, > > […] > > > -- > Vote for PHP Color Coding in Gmail! -> http://gpcc.tijnema.info --- ## #30636 — Pierre — 2007-07-09T05:28:31+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/30580#30636 · In reply to: #30635 > No. If they don't get security updates then they can't really use it > anymore... That's the ideal world. They should really not use it anymore but they can and they will. No matter what we do. I saw many hosts with outdated versions or using old Debian or BSD setups (have been used a 4.3 or 4.2 in the last months). Some Linux distributors will certainly take care of php5 for an even longer period. It is not really important if it is one year or six months (not like php4 gives us a lot of work :), my preference still goes to the end of this year. From my point of view, the year is merely a marketing argument, if it helps us to get a better image, why not... --Pierre --- ## #30637 — Cristian Rodriguez — 2007-07-09T06:29:26+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/30580#30637 · In reply to: #30636 > That's the ideal world. Unfortunately yes. >They should really not use it anymore but they > can and they will. No matter what we do. Right. > Some Linux distributors will certainly > take care of php5 for an even longer period. Yes, about 6 or 7 years more. > It is not really important if it is one year or six months (not like > php4 gives us a lot of work :), my preference still goes to the end of > this year. From my point of view, the year is merely a marketing > argument, if it helps us to get a better image, why not... IMHO this should be done this way 1. Announce **clearly** that PHP4 has reached EOL ASAP. 2. Stop any kind of non-security bugfixing **inmediately** ( well. that is happening now anyway, :-) ) This include marking as wont fix all the opened PHP4 bug reports and removing PHP4 from the version list in the bugtracker as well adding a warning in the bug report form about this. 3. Move PHP4 releases to the Museum ASAP. 4. gave users a reasonable time to discontinue security fixes (no less that 8 months IMHO) also state clearly that this covers only critical security bugs. 5. Fix the documentation, the migration to PHP5 documents are missing many backward incompatible changes. just as an example. http://php.net/manual/en/migration5.incompatible.php does not list the fact that you cannot reasign $this and that unset($this) does nothing. there are many others. 6. finally people will attempt to use backward compatibilty hacks like the horrendous and non-working like zend.ze1_compatibility_mode, it is very important to either fix it or remove it ( I suggest removing it) , there are many extensions that dont even work or crash with it enabled. my $2 chilean pesos. --- ## #30639 — Richard Lynch — 2007-07-09T06:41:10+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/30580#30639 · In reply to: #30637 With the benefit of a lot of reading in this thread... And not sure my vote even counts. +1 PHP4 link to museum +1 Announce ASAP "security fixes only until 8/8/8" It is not "abandoning" users, at this point, to do this, imho. They've had years to switch to PHP 5. They've got another years' worth of legacy security-only support. PHP 5 is stable enough and easy enough to switch to, for 99.99% of the code-base, that only inertia keeps most of these folks on PHP 4. I don't think it's wise to tie it to PHP 6 release. That sets a bad precedent. What if PHP 8 takes "forever" to get released, and PHP 6 *needs* to die? The only real thing to tie it to is the availability of a stable next release, and a reasonable "do or die" time-frame to migrate. -- Some people have a "gift" link here. Know what I want? I want you to buy a CD from some indie artist. http://cdbaby.com/browse/from/lynch Yeah, I get a buck. So? --- ## #30642 — Pierre — 2007-07-09T07:37:54+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/30580#30642 · In reply to: #30637 > > […] > > Yes, about 6 or 7 years more. I meant PHP4, but I fear that your answer will be the same :) --Pierre --- ## #30654 — Derick Rethans — 2007-07-09T08:25:33+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/30580#30654 · In reply to: #30580 > I'd suggest something close to what Rasmus suggested: > a) We make a clear statement on PHP.net that at the end of the year we > plan to discontinue bug fixes for PHP 4 except for security fixes. > b) We will discontinue supporting PHP 4 on 8/8/8 (because it sounds good > and gives people about a year). The attached patch mentions the above. As you can see, the idea is to release this on the 13th, 3 years after php 5 was released for this first time. > I also suggest to move PHP 4 downloads to the museum. I suggest though > to make a clear visible link from php.net/downloads.php to the museum > and make a clear statement that PHP 4 has moved (I am sure there are > still many who look for it for application compatibiity reasons). I think this is a bit premature - I suggest doing this at the end of the year as the museum does not have MD5 sums and the like. I did add a couple of lines in the patch for phpweb to point out this upcoming issue though on both the downloads and releases pages. Please have a look at the attached patch and feel free to make any suggestions towards making the text better. regards, Derick -- Derick Rethans http://derickrethans.nl | http://ez.no | http://xdebug.org --- ## #30665 — Pierre — 2007-07-09T09:47:42+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/30580#30665 · In reply to: #30654 > > > > […] > > The attached patch mentions the above. As you can see, the idea is to > release this on the 13th, 3 years after php 5 was released for this > first time. First thanks for the patch! This paragraph is confusing and somehow made my point: +

+ Hereby the PHP development team announces that support for PHP 4 will + continue until the end of this year only. From 2007-12-31 there will be no + more releases of PHP 4.4, besides important security releases. Security + releases will continue until 2008-08-08 after which PHP 4.4 will no longer be + supported officially. Please use the rest of this year to make your + application suitable to run on PHP 5. +

Either we support it or we don't. That means we support it for security problems only (all non sec bugs reported in php4 will be bogused or move to php5+ if still present). That also means we will have security release only until 2008-08-08. I know that it is what this paragraph says but it could be clearer. Something like: - From 2008-01-01, only security fixes will be fixed (btw, there is no "unimportant" security issue) - From 2008-08-08, PHP4 is dead, officially and physically Is there a way to tell something like that in a non confusing way? There is no need to hide the facts behind some form of kindness :-) hth Cheers, --Pierre --- ## #30712 — Peter Brodersen — 2007-07-10T04:23:50+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/30580#30712 · In reply to: #30581 On Fri, 06 Jul 2007 22:25:32 -0700, in php.internals rasmus@lerdorf.com (Rasmus Lerdorf) wrote: > > […] > >The number 8 also has lots of meaning in Chinese culture. For example >the Beijing Olympics will begin on 8/8/8 at 8:08:08 pm because the word >for 8 sounds like ? which means prosper or wealth. A bit more off-topic: A search for Beijing Olympics at Google gives Reporters sans frontières (Reporters Without Borders), www.rsf.org , as one of the first results. If they don't upgrade their PHP 4 installation it would create a great conspiracy theory :) (of course, sites won't magically go black at that exact moment) In general I really think every bit of help and information about the issue would be paramount. Both information about the motive for discontinuing support and practical information of how to test existing scripts with PHP 5. Usually the PHP development does not bother with specific vendors, products, hosting companies or recommendations in general and so on. But if we really are up for it, it might have a pacific effect to put up some "known-good" lists; stuff like "Yes, phpbb does work with PHP5. Yes, your ISP does support PHP5. Yes, we can recommend tools to check for basic PHP5 compatibility. Yes, MySQL does work with PHP5". The hard part about this is that if the lists are just somewhat non-exhaustive people could be lead to think that all the stuff not mentioned is not compatible. php -l might provide a basic indication of how much havoc an upgrade will cause. Even though php is downloadable as a shell executable for Windows as well I think that a bunch of the php developers still using PHP4 are not into command line administration themselves. Maybe creating a simple tool (perhaps graphic) to check for the 25 most common bc breaks as well as lint checks and with detailed information of what to do. Basically when we tell users "You can't do that anymore" the obvious question from the users would be "But what would I have to do instead?". I know the development of such a tool might be outside the scope of usual php development. But if we want to change the behaviour pattern of the users in the transitional phase it could be necessary. -- - Peter Brodersen --- Next page: https://externals.io/message/30580.md?page=2