# removing bundled libmysql - Thread: https://externals.io/message/2479 - Original archive: https://news-web.php.net/php.internals/2479 - Started by Sterling Hughes on 2003-06-21T15:43:30+00:00 - Messages: 22 - Reply by email to internals@lists.php.net - More for agents: search with https://externals.io/search.md?q={query} · JSON API at https://externals.io/api · documentation at https://externals.io/llms.txt --- ## #2479 — Sterling Hughes — 2003-06-21T15:43:30+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/2479#2479 Hey, I'm putting this message out as a feeler. I'm going to go ahead and remove the mysql library from the PHP source tree. This won't affect the extension, it simply means we won't be bundling the *library* with PHP anymore. This is in a large part due to MySQL's decision to switch to using the GPL for their client libraries as well. Linkage will still be available, but we can't ship the GPL library, and the MySQL 3.2.23 library can't connect to MySQL 4.1 servers, rendering it broken. Speak now, or forever hold your peace. ;-) -Sterling -- "That stuff's easy compared to installing Horde" - Alan Knowles, In response to my applause for creating a LALR parser for PHP. --- ## #2481 — Sterling Hughes — 2003-06-21T15:49:59+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/2479#2481 Yep, that's my plan :-) -Sterling > Hello Sterling, > > Saturday, June 21, 2003, 5:43:30 PM, you wrote: > > SH> Hey, > > SH> I'm putting this message out as a feeler. I'm going to go ahead and > SH> remove the mysql library from the PHP source tree. This won't affect > SH> the extension, it simply means we won't be bundling the *library* with > SH> PHP anymore. This is in a large part due to MySQL's decision to switch > SH> to using the GPL for their client libraries as well. Linkage will still > SH> be available, but we can't ship the GPL library, and the MySQL 3.2.23 > SH> library can't connect to MySQL 4.1 servers, rendering it broken. > > SH> Speak now, or forever hold your peace. ;-) > > Please disable ext/mysql by default then, too. -- "C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot; C++ makes it harder, but when you do, it blows away your whole leg." - Bjarne Stroustrup --- ## #2482 — Wez Furlong — 2003-06-21T15:59:12+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/2479#2482 · In reply to: #2479 +1 > I'm putting this message out as a feeler. I'm going to go ahead and > remove the mysql library from the PHP source tree. This won't affect > the extension, it simply means we won't be bundling the *library* with > PHP anymore. This is in a large part due to MySQL's decision to switch > to using the GPL for their client libraries as well. Linkage will still > be available, but we can't ship the GPL library, and the MySQL 3.2.23 > library can't connect to MySQL 4.1 servers, rendering it broken. --- ## #2485 — Derick Rethans — 2003-06-21T16:07:22+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/2479#2485 · In reply to: #2479 > I'm putting this message out as a feeler. I'm going to go ahead and > remove the mysql library from the PHP source tree. This won't affect > the extension, it simply means we won't be bundling the *library* with > PHP anymore. This is in a large part due to MySQL's decision to switch > to using the GPL for their client libraries as well. Linkage will still > be available, but we can't ship the GPL library, and the MySQL 3.2.23 > library can't connect to MySQL 4.1 servers, rendering it broken. +1 Derick -- "Interpreting what the GPL actually means is a job best left to those that read the future by examining animal entrails." ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Derick Rethans http://derickrethans.nl/ International PHP Magazine http://php-mag.net/ --- ## #2487 — Sascha Schumann — 2003-06-21T16:14:32+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/2479#2487 · In reply to: #2479 > I'm putting this message out as a feeler. I'm going to go ahead and > remove the mysql library from the PHP source tree. This won't affect > the extension, it simply means we won't be bundling the *library* with > PHP anymore. This is in a large part due to MySQL's decision to switch > to using the GPL for their client libraries as well. Linkage will still > be available, but we can't ship the GPL library, and the MySQL 3.2.23 > library can't connect to MySQL 4.1 servers, rendering it broken. Go ahead. There are rumours that MySQL AB does not want to provide a license exemption. The only consequence is that we should not steer users into their hands through simplified deployment. Actually, we should warn users of MySQL 3 that they won't be able to use new versions of MySQL under the same conditions, and that they should better look at Interbase/PostgreSQL. - Sascha --- ## #2488 — Ilia A. — 2003-06-21T17:04:45+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/2479#2488 · In reply to: #2479 > Hey, > > I'm putting this message out as a feeler. I'm going to go ahead and > remove the mysql library from the PHP source tree. This won't affect > the extension, it simply means we won't be bundling the *library* with > PHP anymore. This is in a large part due to MySQL's decision to switch > to using the GPL for their client libraries as well. Linkage will still > be available, but we can't ship the GPL library, and the MySQL 3.2.23 > library can't connect to MySQL 4.1 servers, rendering it broken. > +1 The non-bunbled lib for 3.X series in most cases is a later (better?) version then the one distributed with PHP by default. Ilia --- ## #2491 — Derick Rethans — 2003-06-21T17:10:31+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/2479#2491 > > > […] > > Please don't, if the configure script can find the mysql library needed by the > extension on the system I see no reason why not to enable to mysql extension > by default. Given the large number of php + mysql users, it'll surely reduce > the amount of frustration users will experience once they realize their PHP > no longer has a default MySQL extension. Our policy is not to enable any extension by default that relies on an external library. If the MySQL guys think that they should make it much harder to use because of their license change that should not mean that we need to change our policies because of them. Derick -- "Interpreting what the GPL actually means is a job best left to those that read the future by examining animal entrails." ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Derick Rethans http://derickrethans.nl/ International PHP Magazine http://php-mag.net/ --- ## #2502 — Derick Rethans — 2003-06-21T18:03:27+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/2479#2502 · In reply to: #2501 > By the way, was there an official MySQL announcement about the move to GPL? Not really... atleast nobody send something to a PHP list about it. I was highly suprised when Arjen told me at a conference, and it looks like they tried to hide it or something. Derick -- "Interpreting what the GPL actually means is a job best left to those that read the future by examining animal entrails." ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Derick Rethans http://derickrethans.nl/ International PHP Magazine http://php-mag.net/ --- ## #2492 — Andi Gutmans — 2003-06-21T18:17:35+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/2479#2492 · In reply to: #2479 At 11:43 AM 6/21/2003 -0400, Sterling Hughes wrote: >Hey, > >I'm putting this message out as a feeler. I'm going to go ahead and >remove the mysql library from the PHP source tree. This won't affect >the extension, it simply means we won't be bundling the *library* with >PHP anymore. This is in a large part due to MySQL's decision to switch >to using the GPL for their client libraries as well. Linkage will still >be available, but we can't ship the GPL library, and the MySQL 3.2.23 >library can't connect to MySQL 4.1 servers, rendering it broken. > >Speak now, or forever hold your peace. ;-) +1 from me. It's their loss more than it is ours. Andi --- ## #2501 — Andi Gutmans — 2003-06-21T18:58:41+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/2479#2501 · In reply to: #2479 By the way, was there an official MySQL announcement about the move to GPL? Andi At 08:17 PM 6/21/2003 +0200, Andi Gutmans wrote: >At 11:43 AM 6/21/2003 -0400, Sterling Hughes wrote: > > […] > >+1 from me. It's their loss more than it is ours. > >Andi --- ## #2507 — Georg Richter — 2003-06-21T20:17:05+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/2479#2507 · In reply to: #2479 Hi all, as maintainer of ext/mysql and ext/mysqli I'm standing between php and mysql, and I spent a lot of time on both extensions, so don't ask me :) Currently bundled libmysql prevents users to violate license. If you need an external lib, you normally download latest stable, which is 4.0.x and is GPL. According to the MySQL license, you need a commercial license when using PHP 4 with MySQL 4.x, cause PHP license isn't a) OSI approved and b) GPL compatible. We have the same problem with ext/mysqli which isn't compatible to GPL, and will be removed therefore from PHP 5 beta. The combination with MySQL was one of the reasons that PHP growed up to one of the best and most used scripting languages. PHP was one reason, that MySQL became one the most popular OpenSource databases. So I ask you, is it really necessary, that we try to force a decision. Zak is already working on license problems, incompatibility and possible solutions. Wouldn't it be better to give him and MySQL AB a little bit more time? Just my 2 cents Georg --- ## #2508 — Georg Richter — 2003-06-21T20:30:45+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/2479#2508 · In reply to: #2501 > By the way, was there an official MySQL announcement about the move to GPL? > Yes they did, but it was not the title of the announcement. :) Georg --- ## #2511 — Zak Greant — 2003-06-21T21:08:41+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/2479#2511 · In reply to: #2487 ... > There are rumours that MySQL AB does not want to provide a > license exemption. The only consequence is that we should > not steer users into their hands through simplified > deployment. What!?! Given that I am the one working on the exception right now I would very much like to hear where that little rumour came from! :) Cheers! --zak --- ## #2512 — Zak Greant — 2003-06-21T21:12:33+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/2479#2512 · In reply to: #2507 ... > Zak is already working on license problems, incompatibility and > possible solutions. Wouldn't it be better to give him and MySQL AB a > little bit more time? I had hoped to have the exception done over a week ago, but there have been a few complications involved in getting a suitable exception authored. Cheers! --zak --- ## #2514 — Shane Caraveo — 2003-06-21T21:22:22+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/2479#2514 · In reply to: #2487 Sascha Schumann wrote: > > There are rumours that MySQL AB does not want to provide a > license exemption. The only consequence is that we should > not steer users into their hands through simplified > deployment. > Derick Rethans wrote: > > > > > […] to GPL? > > > Not really... atleast nobody send something to a PHP list about it. I > was highly suprised when Arjen told me at a conference, and it looks > like they tried to hide it or something. > > Derick > I got to speak with Zak at some length about the license change, and while I don't really agree with GPL in general, I can easily understand why they want to change the license. Anyway, I've known about the license change for some time and don't have any impression of anything being hidden, more that it is just not finalized yet. Second, I know that Zak is struggling with this issue trying to come up with a clean and fair license that allows for projects like PHP. Of course, until the license is done there is no guarauntee that PHP will be exempted, but I'm willing to give them the benefit of time to finish it. Shane --- ## #2515 — Georg Richter — 2003-06-21T21:32:30+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/2479#2515 · In reply to: #2487 > There are rumours that MySQL AB does not want to provide a > license exemption. The only consequence is that we should > not steer users into their hands through simplified > deployment. rumors from #php.de ? :) Georg --- ## #2936 — David Axmark — 2003-06-21T23:54:13+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/2479#2936 · In reply to: #2487 > > […] > > Go ahead. > > There are rumours that MySQL AB does not want to provide a > license exemption. Absolutely untrue. I am very sure about this since we have made a decision about this issue. And I am the one responsible inside MySQL AB/Inc. I just myself who have not had time to do the legwork. Investment negotiations take a LOT of time since there are a lot of things to now. And I have had the bad fortune to be sick a a couple of times this spring/summer and that has screwed up my timetable significantly. We plan to do a generic exception making our GPL client linkable with all licenses approved by OpenSource.org. And a extra thing for OpenSSL since that does not pass. But this is a thing that makes our lawyers (even if they are GPL trained by now) unsure about how to write in. And a lawyer needs EXACT text. Zak is the one who is now working with our lawyers on a actual text. > The only consequence is that we should > not steer users into their hands through simplified > deployment. I see nothing wrong with our model. We are trying to make money on Free Software but if are free there is never any question that MySQL is also free. And if you are trying to make money with propreietary software we want a share. This has given us a good growth ground so far and we are now close to doubling (we can not handle more) our development team again. And all the results are available under the GPL! This has lead to a lot of interest from the business community that the BSD license model have not got. > Actually, we should warn users of MySQL 3 that they won't be > able to use new versions of MySQL under the same conditions, > and that they should better look at Interbase/PostgreSQL. Well, if they are free we are free. If not I think they can pay us for a license. I see nothing wrong with that. /David PS: If you have questions about this you can email me directly. Just understand that my email load is --- ## #2522 — Sterling Hughes — 2003-06-22T06:11:23+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/2479#2522 · In reply to: #2507 > Zak is already working on license problems, incompatibility and possible > solutions. Wouldn't it be better to give him and MySQL AB a little bit more > time? > What would've been better if MySQL provided a suitable option before they changed their licenses to the GPL. This is MySQL's mess not ours, and its theirs to cleanup, if they so desire. MySQL certainly wouldn't rest their release cycle on undefined PHP license changes which were promised in an indeterminate period of time. I just want to add here, that I'm pro-mysql. I don't particularly like how the change was done, or the fact that the MySQL library is GPL. That said, I'm certainly not trying to dictate their licensing policy, I'm a programmer, not a lawyer or business person. I also have full confidence that Zak (and MySQL AB too ;) will work out a license exception that is suitable for PHP's needs. Further, keep in mind that this is a beta. Its still a good 6-9 months (at least) before a final PHP5 release. If MySQL provides a suitable solution in the interim, I would frankly be overjoyed to re-add mysqli. As for debundling libmysql, well, it really makes sense that it happens regardless. First of all, I seriously doubt that a suitable exception will exist (ie, enabling it by default). Further, redistributing an old version of the library that doesn't work with MySQL 4.1, is back asswards. If users want MySQL, they can explicitly enable it, and be aware what version they are using. -Sterling -- "Programming today is a race between software engineers stirring to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the universe is winning." - Unknown --- ## #2543 — Peter Neuman — 2003-06-22T15:07:09+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/2479#2543 · In reply to: #2479 Hello, "Sterling Hughes" : > Speak now, or forever hold your peace. ;-) -1 what have you actually always for problems with the GPL licenses? simply the license changes and good is, but please does NOT delete things only because it one would like it means it is not for the license good! Thanks Peter Neuman > Sorry, my english is not good < --- ## #2544 — Derick Rethans — 2003-06-22T15:07:13+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/2479#2544 · In reply to: #2543 > what have you actually always for problems with the GPL licenses? > simply the license changes and good is, but please does NOT delete > things only because it one would like it means it is not for the > license good! So you're suggesting we should violate a license? Derick -- "Interpreting what the GPL actually means is a job best left to those that read the future by examining animal entrails." ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Derick Rethans http://derickrethans.nl/ International PHP Magazine http://php-mag.net/ --- ## #2545 — Cristiano Duarte — 2003-06-22T15:12:30+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/2479#2545 · In reply to: #2479 +1 Cristiano Duarte "Sterling Hughes" escreveu na mensagem news:1056210210.26964.4.camel@hasele... > Hey, > > I'm putting this message out as a feeler. I'm going to go ahead and > remove the mysql library from the PHP source tree. This won't affect > the extension, it simply means we won't be bundling the *library* with > PHP anymore. This is in a large part due to MySQL's decision to switch > to using the GPL for their client libraries as well. Linkage will still > be available, but we can't ship the GPL library, and the MySQL 3.2.23 > library can't connect to MySQL 4.1 servers, rendering it broken. > > Speak now, or forever hold your peace. ;-) > > -Sterling > > -- > "That stuff's easy compared to installing Horde" > - Alan Knowles, In response to my applause for creating a LALR > parser for PHP. --- ## #2599 — Per Lundberg — 2003-06-23T08:34:46+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/2479#2599 · In reply to: #2507 > Zak is already working on license problems, incompatibility and possible > solutions. Wouldn't it be better to give him and MySQL AB a little bit more > time? That would be a good thing. What I think should be clearly stated is that it is a *very* *bad* *idea* to get a PHP-specific agreement with MySQL. In other words, getting an agreement that states that it is legal to link the MySQL libraries into PHP but not into other software in general. This is a discriminatory license that should not be accepted because it is contrary to the very principles of Open Source and Free Software (since it would make derivate works of PHP unable to use the MySQL extension). -- Best regards, Per Lundberg / Capio ApS Phone: +46-18-4186040 Fax: +46-18-4186049 Web: http://www.nobolt.com