# Syntax in PHP 6 - Thread: https://externals.io/message/20218 - Original archive: https://news-web.php.net/php.internals/20218 - Started by Roman Ivanov on 2005-11-21T22:37:29+00:00 - Messages: 34 - Page 1 of 2: messages 1 to 25 (25 per page, add `?page=N` to the URL) - Next page: https://externals.io/message/20218.md?page=2 - Reply by email to internals@lists.php.net - More for agents: search with https://externals.io/search.md?q={query} · JSON API at https://externals.io/api · documentation at https://externals.io/llms.txt --- ## #20219 — Sara Golemon — 2005-11-21T22:37:21+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/20218#20219 · In reply to: #20218 > Will there be any major syntax changes in PHP 6? > Potentially namespaces (i.e. More Paamayim Nekudotayim lovin') Potentially labeled breaks. (i.e. break foo; -- in addition to the existing: break N; ) Unicode related changes (not syntax, but in the ballpark thereof) -Sara PHP 6? --- ## #20218 — Roman Ivanov — 2005-11-21T22:37:29+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/20218#20218 Will there be any major syntax changes in PHP 6? --- ## #20220 — Rowan Lewis — 2005-11-21T23:12:26+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/20218#20220 I'm not sure if this is the best place to ask, but will there be any name changes with functions? I know it would break everything, but it would also help PHP. file_get_contetns VS. FileGetContents... > I'm not sure if this is the best place to ask, but will there be any > name changes with functions? > > I know it would break everything, but it would also help PHP. > > file_get_contetns VS. FileGetContents... > > > > […] > > > -- > ____ > Rowan Lewis (AKA. The Wolf) > -- ____ Rowan Lewis (AKA. The Wolf) --- ## #20221 — Ilia Alshanetsky — 2005-11-21T23:14:46+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/20218#20221 · In reply to: #20220 Rowan Lewis wrote: > I'm not sure if this is the best place to ask, but will there be any > name changes with functions? > > I know it would break everything, but it would also help PHP. > > file_get_contetns VS. FileGetContents... Not going to happen, existing function names will remain as they are and the parameter order will also remain the same. Ilia --- ## #20222 — Rowan Lewis — 2005-11-22T00:09:38+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/20218#20222 · In reply to: #20221 Well, that just sucks. I can only dream... > Rowan Lewis wrote: > > […] > > Not going to happen, existing function names will remain as they are and > the parameter order will also remain the same. > > Ilia > -- ____ Rowan Lewis (AKA. The Wolf) --- ## #20223 — Andrei Zmievski — 2005-11-22T00:20:42+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/20218#20223 · In reply to: #20222 Maybe you should start a new language. With sensible function names, and anything else that you may desire. I hear it's a good exercise. -Andrei > Well, that just sucks. I can only dream... > > > > > […] > > > -- > ____ > Rowan Lewis (AKA. The Wolf) --- ## #20224 — Ian P. Christian — 2005-11-22T00:45:39+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/20218#20224 · In reply to: #20223 > Maybe you should start a new language. With sensible function names,   > and anything else that you may desire. I hear it's a good exercise. Accepting the risk of starting a flame war where 101 PHP developers start to hate me, I feel I should comment on this. I can't help but think this was a completely pointless email showing a complete lack of respect to a PHP user. I'm sure he is as nearly all PHP users will be, extremely grateful for PHP and the work people like yourselves put into the project. Having said this, mails like the one you just posted are pointlessly insulting and achieve nothing. It doesn't make you look good, in fact, I would suggest emails like this act quite contrary. I honestly don't want to start a flame war, and as such will not be drawn into a war by replying to any replied to this message. Andrei, I do appreciate your work - honestly I do. I just really do feel annoyance when developers publicly show this kind of behaviour. Kind Regards, -- Ian P. Christian ~ http://pookey.co.uk --- ## #20225 — Rowan Lewis — 2005-11-22T00:47:33+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/20218#20225 · In reply to: #20223 Andrei, I would if I could! Unfortunately, I wouldn't know where to begin, having never coded anything that complicated before. I've actually written a huge amount of specs for a language, but as I can't code it, there is little hope. All I can do is annoy you guys ;) > Maybe you should start a new language. With sensible function names, > and anything else that you may desire. I hear it's a good exercise. > > -Andrei > > > > > […] > > -- ____ Rowan Lewis (AKA. The Wolf) --- ## #20226 — Andrei Zmievski — 2005-11-22T02:45:57+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/20218#20226 · In reply to: #20224 Would my response have been better if it had had a smiley attached? I've been on both sides of this: as a language user, back in 1998, and as the developer since then. A lot of times it feels that the users take a lot for granted and expect the developers to produce a positive response to their requests. Some go as far as to _demand_ that the language change according to their wishes. The issue that Rowan brought up had been discussed multiple times before and the general consensus has not changed, so saying that "it sucks" is, while cathartic to some degree, is an exercise in futility. I was suggesting a better use of his time. :) That's all I'll say about this. -Andrei > > > > […] > > Accepting the risk of starting a flame war where 101 PHP developers > start to > hate me, I feel I should comment on this. > > I can't help but think this was a completely pointless email showing a > complete lack of respect to a PHP user. I'm sure he is as nearly > all PHP > users will be, extremely grateful for PHP and the work people like > yourselves > put into the project. Having said this, mails like the one you > just posted > are pointlessly insulting and achieve nothing. It doesn't make you > look > good, in fact, I would suggest emails like this act quite contrary. I > honestly don't want to start a flame war, and as such will not be > drawn into > a war by replying to any replied to this message. > > Andrei, I do appreciate your work - honestly I do. I just really do > feel > annoyance when developers publicly show this kind of behaviour. > > Kind Regards, > > -- > Ian P. Christian ~ http://pookey.co.uk --- ## #20227 — Andrei Zmievski — 2005-11-22T02:49:58+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/20218#20227 · In reply to: #20225 Rowan, This book should be a good start: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1558604421/ HTH, -Andrei > Andrei, I would if I could! > > Unfortunately, I wouldn't know where to begin, having never coded > anything that complicated before. > > I've actually written a huge amount of specs for a language, but as I > can't code it, there is little hope. > > All I can do is annoy you guys ;) > > > > > > […] > > > -- > ____ > Rowan Lewis (AKA. The Wolf) --- ## #20228 — Ian P. Christian — 2005-11-22T02:53:50+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/20218#20228 · In reply to: #20226 > Would my response have been better if it had had a smiley attached? Whilst RFC 1855 does say 'Don't assume that the inclusion of a smiley will make the recipient happy with what you say or wipe out an otherwise insulting comment.', I would add that it does go a long way of taking the edge of a post that might otherwise be considered.... harsh. Thanks for your reply Andrei, means a lot to me :) Perhaps I took your message in completly the wrong tone - It's far too easy to grab a stick by the wrong end with online discusions. > This book should be a good start: Fantastic link, I'll definatly add that to my reading list! Thanks again Andrei, kind regards, -- Ian P. Christian ~ http://pookey.co.uk --- ## #20229 — Lukas Smith — 2005-11-22T06:41:38+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/20218#20229 · In reply to: #20222 Rowan Lewis wrote: > Well, that just sucks. I can only dream... Ian: How was this mail more useful/polite/pointful than Andrei's reply? Now remember that PHP developers get stuff like this all the time, yet users most of the time just come here to complain now and then. Its like working at Wal-Mart at times, yet you do not get paid nor have the level of desperation to be working in such conditions while keeping that fake smile. Anyways lets just remind us all, that each and every one of us sets the tone of discussion and that some of us do actual work here. So I would assume the others maybe make a bigger effort at keeping the tone happy. regards, Lukas --- ## #20230 — Rowan Lewis — 2005-11-22T08:24:55+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/20218#20230 Well, this is all OK. I guess, even if it means PHP will remain messy for more years yet. But can someone point me as to why this (backwards) choice has been made? > Well, this is all OK. I guess, even if it means PHP will remain messy > for more years yet. > > But can someone point me as to why this (backwards) choice has been made? > > > > […] > > > -- > ____ > Rowan Lewis (AKA. The Wolf) > -- ____ Rowan Lewis (AKA. The Wolf) --- ## #20232 — Rowan Lewis — 2005-11-22T09:59:51+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/20218#20232 Well no, I guess you don't want to, but then do you want to keep adding new features following no specific naming method? Users I know of already complain about the lack of standard naming throughout PHP. As there are already alot of changes in PHP6, would it really hurt more to change to one standard naming system? Would it be better for the future? You're worried about conforming to a single naming standard, and that it might put old users off. At the same time, your looking at introducing many other features, like namespaces, which many people hate. No body I know of (assuming that they are sane) would complain if a standard naming system was adopted. Most of them would feel that the quality of the language has just been given a large boost. I won't sit here and take the "running away from the language", knowing that bigger more confusing and perhaps less useful changes will be implemented. To everyone taking part in PHP6 development, thanks for the work, just don't let the users down. And to everyone who has worked on PHP, thank you for giving me a simple OOP capable language! > > > […] > The current function naming scheme being messy is really a subject of > personal opinion. I personally think that if it comes to a point where > all the functions are replaced with ones like you outlined above, I'd > be running away from the language. > > Not to mention backwards compatability, do we really want to piss off > every person that has coded in PHP over the last few years? > > -- > --Robert Deaton > -- ____ Rowan Lewis (AKA. The Wolf) --- ## #20233 — Derick Rethans — 2005-11-22T10:10:57+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/20218#20233 · In reply to: #20232 > Well no, I guess you don't want to, but then do you want to keep > adding new features following no specific naming method? Bullshit, we have guidelines for that: http://cvs.php.net/annotate.php/php-src/CODING_STANDARDS?rev=1.32#84 > As there are already alot of changes in PHP6, would it really hurt > more to change to one standard naming system? yes > Would it be better for the future? maybe > You're worried about conforming to a single naming standard, and that > it might put old users off. At the same time, your looking at > introducing many other features, like namespaces, which many people > hate. But many people request too. You don't *have* to use the new features if you hate them. Derick -- Derick Rethans http://derickrethans.nl | http://ez.no | http://xdebug.org --- ## #20234 — status@quo.org — 2005-11-22T16:12:11+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/20218#20234 · In reply to: #20232 Perhaps this has already been proposed and I missed it as I'm new to the list, but why not set a release in the future, say PHP8, in which there will be no holds barred about breaking bc? Everyone would know that this upcomming release would be the one that resolves all inconsistencies with lots of time to debate them and get ready for the upgrade, and meanwhile people who complain could be told to wait for release x and told where they can give their opinion about styles etc. -- Matt Asher > Well no, I guess you don't want to, but then do you want to keep > adding new features following no specific naming method? Users I know > of already complain about the lack of standard naming throughout PHP. > > As there are already alot of changes in PHP6, would it really hurt > more to change to one standard naming system? Would it be better for > the future? > > You're worried about conforming to a single naming standard, and that > it might put old users off. At the same time, your looking at > introducing many other features, like namespaces, which many people > hate. > > No body I know of (assuming that they are sane) would complain if a > standard naming system was adopted. Most of them would feel that the > quality of the language has just been given a large boost. > > I won't sit here and take the "running away from the language", > knowing that bigger more confusing and perhaps less useful changes > will be implemented. > > To everyone taking part in PHP6 development, thanks for the work, just > don't let the users down. > > And to everyone who has worked on PHP, thank you for giving me a > simple OOP capable language! > > > > […] > > > -- > ____ > Rowan Lewis (AKA. The Wolf) --- ## #20235 — Joseph Crawford — 2005-11-22T16:15:45+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/20218#20235 · In reply to: #20234 i would agree with you matt :) -- Joseph Crawford Jr. Zend Certified Engineer Codebowl Solutions, Inc. 1-802-671-2021 codebowl@gmail.com --- ## #20240 — Ben Ramsey — 2005-11-22T18:37:08+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/20218#20240 · In reply to: #20234 > Perhaps this has already been proposed and I missed it as I'm new to the > list, but why not set a release in the future, say PHP8, in which there > will be no holds barred about breaking bc? Everyone would know that this > upcomming release would be the one that resolves all inconsistencies with > lots of time to debate them and get ready for the upgrade, and meanwhile > people who complain could be told to wait for release x and told where > they can give their opinion about styles etc. Hasn't this stuff already been debated enough in the past? -- Ben Ramsey http://benramsey.com/ --- ## #20263 — Sergio A. Kessler — 2005-11-23T14:04:55+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/20218#20263 · In reply to: #20233 Derick Rethans wrote: [about namespaces] > > But many people request too. You don't *have* to use the new features if > you hate them. derick, this is the same song that C++ people sing along... and is a *very* flawed reason for adding mo' features... regards, /sak --- ## #20264 — Derick Rethans — 2005-11-23T14:06:35+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/20218#20264 · In reply to: #20263 > [about namespaces] > > […] > > derick, this is the same song that C++ people sing along... > > and is a *very* flawed reason for adding mo' features... yes, why should we make people's life easier when using PHP? Derick -- Derick Rethans http://derickrethans.nl | http://ez.no | http://xdebug.org --- ## #20280 — Rowan Lewis — 2005-11-23T23:19:35+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/20218#20280 · In reply to: #20264 Indeed why not? Instead of adding new amazing features, I'd be just as happy if all of the function names where standardised. I know its not going to happen, but then, you should know that by now, I'm not goint to stop suggesting it... > > > > […] > > yes, why should we make people's life easier when using PHP? > > Derick > > -- > Derick Rethans > http://derickrethans.nl | http://ez.no | http://xdebug.org > -- ____ Rowan Lewis (AKA. The Wolf) --- ## #20282 — Roman Ivanov — 2005-11-24T00:45:46+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/20218#20282 · In reply to: #20226 Andrei Zmievski wrote: > Would my response have been better if it had had a smiley attached? > > The issue that Rowan brought up had been discussed multiple times before I think the number of unreasonable requests and questions would drop significantly if there were some kind of design digest, or developers blog. Something that would explain why thing work like they do, and how/why are they going to change. Right now the only way to get such information is to read everything on the internals list. --- ## #20328 — Michael Cordover — 2005-11-25T04:15:00+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/20218#20328 · In reply to: #20234 status@quo.org wrote: > Perhaps this has already been proposed and I missed it as I'm new to the > list, but why not set a release in the future, say PHP8, in which there > will be no holds barred about breaking bc? Everyone would know that this > upcomming release would be the one that resolves all inconsistencies with > lots of time to debate them and get ready for the upgrade, and meanwhile > people who complain could be told to wait for release x and told where > they can give their opinion about styles etc. Ok, so I know this is already close to a flamewar and I don't mean to add to that, but how difficult would it be to select a naming scheme, shove all the functions into and alias the non-conforming names to those functions. New code would be consistent, old code would work. And then at PHP 8 or so the old versions could be totally scrapped. I'm probably missing some basic impediment to doing this and I'd appreciate it being pointed out to me - with or without a smiley ;). -mjec -- http://mine.mjec.net/ --- ## #20329 — Sara Golemon — 2005-11-25T05:04:45+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/20218#20329 · In reply to: #20328 > Ok, so I know this is already close to a flamewar and I don't mean to add > to that, but how difficult would it be to select a naming scheme, shove > all the functions into and alias the non-conforming names to those > functions. New code would be consistent, old code would work. And then > at PHP 8 or so the old versions could be totally scrapped. > I say this with no degree of sarcasm or ill-will: Create a formal proposal. Write up precisely what functions you would rename, how you would rename them, and what else would be involved in your plan to "clean up the function list". Bear in mind factors such as documentation and backward compatability in your proposal. Remember that PHP is a community based project and it only grows and changes with the input of the members of that community. Will your proposal be met with resistence? Certainly. Such an undertaking represents no small amount of effort and a no less pain when the final BC break occurs. It does however, stand a much better chance of being seriously considered if the implications appear to be well thought out and planned for with a reasoned and lasting approach. -Sara --- ## #20556 — Roman Ivanov — 2005-11-26T15:44:33+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/20218#20556 · In reply to: #20329 Sara Golemon wrote: > Will your proposal be met with resistence? Certainly. Such an > undertaking represents no small amount of effort and a no less pain when > the final BC break occurs. No need to break BC! I have a solution. All we need is to introduce $THAT superglobal object, plus couple of new functions. define_usual_php_variable($var, 1); $THAT->va2 = 1; //not recommendedm, gives `E_NOTICE` class Bla{ function doSomething(){ $THAT->print($THAT->var); $THAT->str_sub($THAT->var2); } } [ This message is a joke. A bitter one. ] --- Next page: https://externals.io/message/20218.md?page=2