# is this thing on? - Thread: https://externals.io/message/122490 - Original archive: https://news-web.php.net/php.internals/122490 - Started by Rob Landers on 2024-02-25T20:02:50+00:00 - Messages: 22 - Reply by email to internals@lists.php.net - More for agents: search with https://externals.io/search.md?q={query} · JSON API at https://externals.io/api · documentation at https://externals.io/llms.txt --- ## #122490 — Rob Landers — 2024-02-25T20:02:50+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/122490#122490 Hello internals, from an alternate email address that hopefully works... Before I get to the meat of this email, first of all, IMHO, anyone should be able to email the list, even if they are not a member of the list. I've had to email ubuntu lists about bugs before and I really have no desire to join those lists, but I was always able to just send the email to the list just fine. Now for the issue: gmail is failing to send emails to the list (hence why it has probably been a bit quite around here). Here is the error: The response from the remote server was: 451 4.3.0 : Temporary lookup failure Now, to go figure out how to unsubscribe this email from the list... — Rob --- ## #122493 — Daniil Gentili — 2024-02-26T09:56:23+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/122490#122493 · In reply to: #122490 > gmail is failing to send emails to the list (hence why it has probably > been a bit quite around here). Here is the error: +1, personally I would just switch to github issues and discussions, even ignoring all the deliverability issues, I don't think using a mailing list is a good idea for a modern programming language, seeking new contributors and new ideas in 2024. VCS was already moved to github after the recent hack of the php VCS, a lot of technical internals-related discussion is already using exclusively github issues and pull request discussions, I believe that the mailing list is nothing more than a redundant relic of the past. Regards, Daniil Gentili --- ## #122494 — Rowan Tommins [IMSoP] — 2024-02-26T11:03:05+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/122490#122494 · In reply to: #122490 > Before I get to the meat of this email, first of all, IMHO, anyone should be able to email the list, even if they are not a > member of the list. I've had to email ubuntu lists about bugs before and I really have no desire to join those lists, but > I was always able to just send the email to the list just fine. The biggest problem with an open list is how to manage spam - if you don't catch the spam on the list server, it not only ends up in hundreds of inboxes, but in multiple archives and mirrors of the list. I don't know how the lists you mentioned handle that. This has also come up in the past regarding moving from e-mail to $currently_fashionable_technology - having some barrier to entry is actually quite useful, since we want people to put some effort into their contributions beyond "me too" or "I had this crazy idea in the pub". Note that this is exactly why bugs.php.net was abandoned: there was too much spam and low-quality content. > Now for the issue: > > gmail is failing to send emails to the list (hence why it has probably been a bit quite around here). Here is the error: > > The response from the remote server was: > 451 4.3.0 : Temporary lookup failure People are aware of this issue, and looking into it. In case you missed the previous thread, two things have unfortunately happened at once: - The mailing list was moved to a new server - GMail rolled out a much tighter set of anti-spam rules It's not immediately clear which of these is responsible for the 451 errors, but as I say, people are working on it. > Now, to go figure out how to unsubscribe this email from the list... Exactly the same way you subscribed, I believe: via the web form, or using +unsubscribe in the to address. Regards, -- Rowan Tommins [IMSoP] --- ## #122495 — Derick Rethans — 2024-02-26T11:25:15+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/122490#122495 · In reply to: #122494 > > > […] That's not true. There was a complex pre-auth system in use that you had to do once (the "confirmed list"). >The biggest problem with an open list is how to manage spam Exactly. See the results of that on the php-announce list which was open for a few hours. We can't make this an open list. >Exactly the same way you subscribed, I believe: via the web form, or using +unsubscribe in the to address. Correct. cheers Derick --- ## #122496 — Daniil Gentili — 2024-02-26T11:53:25+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/122490#122496 · In reply to: #122494 > This has also come up in the past regarding moving from e-mail to $currently_fashionable_technology - having some barrier to entry is actually quite useful, since we want people to put some effort into their contributions beyond "me too" or "I had this crazy idea in the pub". IMO sending an email is not a gigantic barrier to entry, as can be seen by the often low (technical and overall) quality of the replies to many of the threads on this list. Personally, I do not think that gatekeeping (!) and spam-prevention are a good reason to keep using a broken and outdated system like mailing lists in 2024. Large projects like PHP will still inevitably attract attention, regardless of whether github or mailing lists are used; I personally dislike mailing lists not because they are difficult to use, but because they are simply broken: every time I had to deal with any mailing list, including this one, I had both incoming and outgoing deliverability issues related either to DKIM/DMARC, or some other issue caused by modern anti-spam measures that mailing lists do not account for. I really don't think that a modern discussion system can afford to randomly loose messages: mailing lists should not be used in 2024. Regards, Daniil Gentili. --- ## #122497 — Christian Schneider — 2024-02-26T12:51:35+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/122490#122497 · In reply to: #122493 Am 26.02.2024 um 10:56 schrieb Daniil Gentili : > > […] > +1, personally I would just switch to github issues and discussions, even ignoring all the deliverability issues, I don't think using a mailing list is a good idea for a modern programming language, seeking new contributors and new ideas in 2024. > VCS was already moved to github after the recent hack of the php VCS, a lot of technical internals-related discussion is already using exclusively github issues and pull request discussions, I believe that the mailing list is nothing more than a redundant relic of the past. I very much disagree as I still prefer email to having discussions in issues or PRs. It is still the sweet spot for me with easy of use and feature support from a modern email client. Issues and PRs are IMHO suited for bugs, feature requests and other code changes, not for discussions. And no, I don't like discussion forums like reddit or Discord either. Writing to the amount of people following php internals should be done with some consideration and more social media type of platforms unfortunately - in my experience - tend to encourage noise. Just my $.02, - Chris --- ## #122498 — Daniil Gentili — 2024-02-26T13:25:43+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/122490#122498 · In reply to: #122497 > And no, I don't like discussion forums like reddit or Discord either. Discord should be completely out of question, given that it is non-indexable by search engines (btw, technically this mailing list isn't indexable either without projects like externals.io). > Writing to the amount of people following php internals should be done with some consideration and more social media type of platforms unfortunately - in my experience - tend to encourage noise. As I mentioned in my other reply in this thread, IMO sending an email is not a gigantic barrier to entry, as can be seen by the often low (technical and overall) quality of the replies to many of the threads on this list. Personally, I do not think that gatekeeping (!) and spam-prevention are a good reason to keep using a broken and outdated system like mailing lists in 2024. Large projects like PHP will still inevitably attract attention, regardless of whether github or mailing lists are used; I personally dislike mailing lists not because they are difficult to use, but because they are simply broken: every time I had to deal with any mailing list, including this one, I had both incoming and outgoing deliverability issues related either to DKIM/DMARC, both on gmaill and zoho mail on a custom domain, or some other issue caused by modern anti-spam measures that mailing lists do not account for. I really don't think that a modern discussion system can afford to randomly loose messages: mailing lists should not be used in 2024. Regards, Daniil Gentili. --- ## #122499 — Christian Schneider — 2024-02-26T15:56:50+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/122490#122499 · In reply to: #122498 Am 26.02.2024 um 14:25 schrieb Daniil Gentili : > I really don't think that a modern discussion system can afford to randomly loose messages: mailing lists should not be used in 2024. Just because Gmail decided to tighten the rules about SPF/DKIM just now does not mean email is broken or loses messages on a regular basis. Repeating it does not make it true, let's agree to disagree. Regards, - Chris --- ## #122500 — Rob Landers — 2024-02-26T16:14:49+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/122490#122500 · In reply to: #122494 > > > […] > > The biggest problem with an open list is how to manage spam - if you don't catch the spam on the list server, it not only ends up in hundreds of inboxes, but in multiple archives and mirrors of the list. I don't know how the lists you mentioned handle that. https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/Ubuntu-devel-discuss You can send an email and ask :) no subscription required. > > This has also come up in the past regarding moving from e-mail to $currently_fashionable_technology - having some barrier to entry is actually quite useful, since we want people to put some effort into their contributions beyond "me too" or "I had this crazy idea in the pub". > > Note that this is exactly why bugs.php.net was abandoned: there was too much spam and low-quality content. > > > > […] > > People are aware of this issue, and looking into it. In case you missed the previous thread, two things have unfortunately happened at once: > > - The mailing list was moved to a new server > - GMail rolled out a much tighter set of anti-spam rules > > It's not immediately clear which of these is responsible for the 451 errors, but as I say, people are working on it. There wasn’t any mention about issues FROM Gmail TO the list. I sent this email because it didn’t seem like ANYONE was aware of the issue (otherwise someone would have mentioned it, so people would stop hammering the server trying to send emails that couldn’t be sent). Even emailing people like Derrick directly was failing to be sent. > > > […] > > Exactly the same way you subscribed, I believe: via the web form, or using +unsubscribe in the to address. > > Regards, > -- > Rowan Tommins > [IMSoP] > P.S. I have no idea if this email is sent via html or plain text or how to switch it. I apologize for the shenanigans if this is html. — Rob --- ## #122501 — Gina P. Banyard — 2024-02-26T17:35:53+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/122490#122501 · In reply to: #122496 > > IMO sending an email is not a gigantic barrier to entry, as can be seen by the often low (technical and overall) quality of the replies to many of the threads on this list. Yet people complain about it being a barrier to entry, and a barrier to contributing to the project. > I really don't think that a modern discussion system can afford to randomly loose messages: mailing lists should not be used in 2024. This is a take and a half, a lot of self-hosted modern discussion system still require an email server and list. Moreover, internals is far from the only mailing list that contributors/core devs rely on. > Large projects like PHP will still inevitably attract attention, regardless of whether github or mailing lists are used; I personally dislike mailing lists not because they are difficult to use, but because they are simply broken: every time I had to deal with any mailing list, including this one, I had both incoming and outgoing deliverability issues related either to DKIM/DMARC, or some other issue caused by modern anti-spam measures that mailing lists do not account for. I'm sorry this has been your experience, but I never really had any issues with mailing lists, and they have always just worked TM Part of the issue is that we were forced to migrate the mailing list on short notice. And I do agree that certain things the list does about DKIM/DMARC is less than optimal. However, demanding to change the workflow of core developers for _your_ convenience is, not a good way of moving change forward. I find it akin to being a new hire at a large, established company and storming into a meeting of the board of directors within your first week of working to demand change because the way it is currently being operated is "shit". I can let you imagine the fallout of such an action if attempted in real life. Yes, the list is far from ideal, but it is an established process that has somewhat worked and people have integrated this into their workflow. Are there better options? Sure. But shouting "just use GitHub discussion", or whatever $myPreferedPlatformOrMethod is not conducive to change. For us to move away from the internals list you *must* have core developer endorsement for the new solution. And, with people I have talked to, me included, find GitHub discussions to be ill-suited. It probably works perfectly for a library, tooling, or projects built with PHP and I'm happy for projects where it is a good fit. What is the purpose of the list, and internals? I'm not exactly sure, as it seems to have morphed and shifted over the course of its existence. Is the objective is to have core developers interact on it willingly by having technical discussion which might go over most people head? Is the objective just for people to be able spit ball ideas as an initial stage on a wide-reaching platform with minimal interaction from core developers? Is the objective to just propose, announce, and discuss RFCs and vote on them? etc. Probably each of these objectives require different solutions, and this would probably be a more useful conversation to have. Best regards, Gina P. Banyard --- ## #122502 — Rob Landers — 2024-02-26T18:07:15+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/122490#122502 > > > […] > > > Absolutely, it wasn't my intention to criticise you for asking, just to > reassure you that it is a known issue - I only know myself because I > reached out on a different forum, and was reassured in my turn. > > The mention of the other problems was just in case you hadn't spotted > that thread. Oh no worries! I’m just glad people know that they know. > > Hopefully all will be resolved soon, and we can get back to our > regularly scheduled bikeshedding ;) Looking forward to it! I have a very long question I sent to the list a few minutes after it broke, mostly about a bug with traits that has been fixed and broken at least once and I’m not sure if it is intentionally broken. I can open a PR to fix it, but if it’s intentionally broken and needs an RFC to fix, it probably won’t happen (at least by me). > Regards, > > -- > Rowan Tommins > [IMSoP] > > — Rob --- ## #122515 — John Coggeshall — 2024-02-26T18:14:30+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/122490#122515 · In reply to: #122493 > VCS was already moved to github after the recent hack of the php VCS, a lot of technical internals-related discussion is already using exclusively github issues and pull request discussions, I believe that the mailing list is nothing more than a redundant relic of the past. > As one of those relics of the past, I'll say that there are plenty of people, myself included, who stay subscribed to this list to keep an eye on things -- I would be really disappointed to discover I now have to actively go search out what's going on by digging into issues and PRs. John --- ## #122505 — tim@bastelstu.be — 2024-02-26T19:45:05+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/122490#122505 · In reply to: #122493 Hi > even ignoring all the deliverability issues, I don't think using a > mailing list is a good idea for a modern programming language, seeking And neither is GitHub Discussions. When I have the choice between GitHub Discussions and a mailing list, I'd take a mailing list all day, every day. See also this previous email of mine: https://news-web.php.net/php.internals/120010 > exclusively github issues and pull request discussions, I believe that > the mailing list is nothing more than a redundant relic of the past. Mailing lists are fine and PHP is not the only project using them. The Linux kernel successfully uses them, the HAProxy project does as well and so does Debian. Best regards Tim Düsterhus --- ## #122506 — tim@bastelstu.be — 2024-02-26T19:46:44+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/122490#122506 · In reply to: #122498 Hi > > […] > > Discord should be completely out of question, given that it is Agreed. > non-indexable by search engines (btw, technically this mailing list > isn't indexable either without projects like externals.io). This is false. There is an official web-accessible archive of the list: https://news-web.php.net/php.internals Best regards Tim Düsterhus --- ## #122520 — youkidearitai — 2024-02-27T00:34:40+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/122490#122520 · In reply to: #122505 2024年2月27日(火) 6:13 Tim Düsterhus : > > Hi > > > > […] > > And neither is GitHub Discussions. When I have the choice between GitHub > Discussions and a mailing list, I'd take a mailing list all day, every > day. See also this previous email of mine: > https://news-web.php.net/php.internals/120010 > > > […] > > Mailing lists are fine and PHP is not the only project using them. The > Linux kernel successfully uses them, the HAProxy project does as well > and so does Debian. > > Best regards > Tim Düsterhus Hi, Internals There are times when I explore archives (mbstring and character code etc), so it's helpful to have something left in communication form. Therefore a mailing list would be better for that. Regards Yuya -- --------------------------- Yuya Hamada (tekimen) - https://tekitoh-memdhoi.info - https://github.com/youkidearitai --- ## #122554 — daniil@daniil.it — 2024-03-04T19:20:57+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/122490#122554 · In reply to: #122520 > > […] > > Hi, Internals > > There are times when I explore archives (mbstring and character code > etc), so it's helpful to have something left in communication form. > Therefore a mailing list would be better for that. Modern programming languages like Rust and Go use exclusively github for internals discussion and RFCs, and all conversations are easily accessible, searchable and indexed by Google, with a much better UX than mailing lists. Just my two cents, I still believe using mailing lists and an invite-only wiki adds needless friction. Regards, Daniil Gentili. --- ## #122555 — Lars Nielsen — 2024-03-04T21:35:27+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/122490#122555 · In reply to: #122554 > > > […] > > Modern programming languages like Rust and Go use exclusively github > for internals discussion and RFCs, and all conversations are easily > accessible, searchable and indexed by Google, with a much better UX > than mailing lists. > > Just my two cents, I still believe using mailing lists and an > invite-only wiki adds needless friction. > > Regards, > Daniil Gentili. Has Microsoft made a commitment to support open source forever? I mean MS owns Github, what ensures that it will stay free? Regards Lars Nielsen --- ## #122556 — daniil@daniil.it — 2024-03-04T22:26:37+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/122490#122556 · In reply to: #122555 > Has Microsoft made a commitment to support open source forever? I mean MS owns Github, what ensures that it will stay free? This is a silly argument, if that were the case, maybe the VCS should move back to a self-hosted instance too? Jokes aside, if Microsoft suddenly decides to throw away or to charge for github, one of their biggest assets after Windows and OpenAI, PHP would have bigger problems than RFCs being managed on the github issue tracker. Regards, Daniil Gentili. --- ## #122557 — Derick Rethans — 2024-03-04T22:53:15+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/122490#122557 · In reply to: #122556 > > […] > >This is a silly argument, if that were the case, maybe the VCS should move back to a self-hosted instance too? The VSC part from github (hosting our code), can very easily be ported. Issues, discussions etc can not. >Jokes aside, if Microsoft suddenly decides to throw away or to charge for github, one of their biggest assets after Windows and OpenAI, PHP would have bigger problems than RFCs being managed on the github issue tracker. With the ongoing enshittification of most of the Internet due to advertising and tracking, we'd be negligent not hosting and owning our own content (including our issue tracker, but that ship has sailed now). Email has been around for half a century. Will things like Slack, Discord, and the like still be operational and allow access to our archives in another 25 years? I'm almost certain it won't be. cheers Derick --- ## #122558 — daniil@daniil.it — 2024-03-04T23:11:29+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/122490#122558 · In reply to: #122557 > The VSC part from github (hosting our code), can very easily be ported. Issues, discussions etc can not. > > With the ongoing enshittification of most of the Internet due to advertising and tracking, we'd be negligent not hosting and owning our own content (including our issue tracker, but that ship has sailed now). PHP actually recently moved from a self-hosted VCS to github due to a hack that compromised php's source code, moving back to a self-hosted instance seems like a downgrade. However, if that's being discussed, it can be done properly, i.e. with a self-hosted gitlab instance, which also provides issues, projects, CI, basically the full devops experience, that would be the perfect chance to also move the mailing list and php wiki to gitlab (which is how many FOSS projects work currently, I.e. wayland, xorg, mesa, pipewire, asahi use the gitlab.freedesktop.org gitlab instance, arch linux has its own gitlab instance (which is also used for RFCs)). > Email has been around for half a century. Will things like Slack, Discord, and the like still be operational and allow access to our archives in another 25 years? I'm almost certain it won't be. No one is proposing to move the issue tracker to discord, slack or telegram: those are messengers, and should not be used as support forums for such a major language, mainly because they're non-indexable. Regards, Daniil Gentili --- ## #122559 — Andreas Heigl — 2024-03-05T06:09:06+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/122490#122559 · In reply to: #122558 Hey Folks. Am 05.03.24 um 00:11 schrieb daniil@daniil.it: > > […] > > PHP actually recently moved from a self-hosted VCS to github due to a > hack that compromised php's source code, moving back to a self-hosted > instance seems like a downgrade. > > However, if that's being discussed, it can be done properly, i.e. with a > self-hosted gitlab instance, which also provides issues, projects, CI, > basically the full devops experience, that would be the perfect chance > to also move the mailing list and php wiki to gitlab (which is how many > FOSS projects work currently, I.e. wayland, xorg, mesa, pipewire, asahi > use the gitlab.freedesktop.org gitlab instance, arch linux has its own > gitlab instance (which is also used for RFCs)). > > > > […] > > No one is proposing to move the issue tracker to discord, slack or > telegram: those are messengers, and should not be used as support forums > for such a major language, mainly because they're non-indexable. > > Regards, > Daniil Gentili > If I have learned one thing in decades of software development and emergency management it is: Never change a process in an emergency Processes are there to help in emergencies. They provide stable ways to process information. And in any case, any decission taken in an emergency situation will be influenced by the wish to fastly overcome the emergency and not by the wish to optimize the process. Also discussions about whether a process is necessary or not or needs to be changed wastes resources that can help solve the problem. That said: It is fine to discuss whether the mailinglists are the best thing to foster communication about the development of PHP - when the mailinglist is working fine. When the mailinglist is broken (and it'S not that that happens every other week) the only discussion is either about the development of PHP or how one can help to fix the issue. Some things didn't go well. Some things did go well. We (meaning those that fixed and still fix the issues at hand) might come together for a retrospective once everything works fine again and see what can be improved to help avoid such a situation the next time. Once that is done and everything works fine I am looking forward to an RFC proposing better ways to communicate about all the aspects of developing PHP in a worldwide distributed community of volunteers. Cheers Andreas -- ,,, (o o) +---------------------------------------------------------ooO-(_)-Ooo-+ | Andreas Heigl | | mailto:andreas@heigl.org N 50°22'59.5" E 08°23'58" | | https://andreas.heigl.org | +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ | https://hei.gl/appointmentwithandreas | +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ | GPG-Key: https://hei.gl/keyandreasheiglorg | +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ --- ## #122648 — Peter Kokot — 2024-03-15T21:06:35+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/122490#122648 · In reply to: #122558 > > > […] > > PHP actually recently moved from a self-hosted VCS to github due to a hack that compromised php's source code, moving back to a self-hosted instance seems like a downgrade. > > However, if that's being discussed, it can be done properly, i.e. with a self-hosted gitlab instance, which also provides issues, projects, CI, basically the full devops experience, that would be the perfect chance to also move the mailing list and php wiki to gitlab (which is how many FOSS projects work currently, I.e. wayland, xorg, mesa, pipewire, asahi use the gitlab.freedesktop.org gitlab instance, arch linux has its own gitlab instance (which is also used for RFCs)). > > > > […] > > No one is proposing to move the issue tracker to discord, slack or telegram: those are messengers, and should not be used as support forums for such a major language, mainly because they're non-indexable. > > Regards, > Daniil Gentili > Interesting thing with GitHub discussions, issues and PRs is that they are also like some sort of temporary chat. In my experience whatever we've discussed on PHP GitHub places was never actually very important for the project maintainers nor taken seriously. Mailing list was always a bit more serious and taken with a slight priority. Interesting is that we have discussed something on GitHub but then later people have implemented something completely different or completely forgot about the thing we've discussed on GitHub. I think that GitHub requires a lot of effort to participate. You can't only discuss it from your mobile phone. There actual implementations need to be done. And by all means, GitHub PHP places are all there, waiting for people to jump in and write a word or two where they feel needed.