# [VOTE][RFC] mb_ucfirst and mb_lcfirst functions - Thread: https://externals.io/message/122271 - Original archive: https://news-web.php.net/php.internals/122271 - Started by youkidearitai on 2024-02-02T00:59:54+00:00 - Messages: 15 - RFC: Multibyte for ucfirst and lcfirst functions (Implemented (PHP 8.4)) — https://externals.io/rfc/mb_ucfirst.md - Reply by email to internals@lists.php.net - More for agents: search with https://externals.io/search.md?q={query} · RFCs at https://externals.io/rfc.md · JSON API at https://externals.io/api · documentation at https://externals.io/llms.txt --- ## #122271 — youkidearitai — 2024-02-02T00:59:54+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/122271#122271 Hi, Internals I have just opened the voting "Multibyte ucfirst and lcfirst functions" RFC. https://wiki.php.net/rfc/mb_ucfirst Voting will be open until February 26th, 2024 at 01:00 UTC. Cheers Yuya -- --------------------------- Yuya Hamada (tekimen) - https://tekitoh-memdhoi.info - https://github.com/youkidearitai --- ## #122273 — Lynn — 2024-02-02T08:15:53+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/122271#122273 · In reply to: #122271 On Fri, Feb 2, 2024 at 2:00 AM youkidearitai wrote: > Hi, Internals > > I have just opened the voting "Multibyte ucfirst and lcfirst functions" > RFC. > https://wiki.php.net/rfc/mb_ucfirst > > Voting will be open until February 26th, 2024 at 01:00 UTC. > > Cheers > Yuya > > -- > --------------------------- > Yuya Hamada (tekimen) > - https://tekitoh-memdhoi.info > - https://github.com/youkidearitai > ----------------------------- > > -- > > To unsubscribe, visit: https://www.php.net/unsub.php > > In the proposal part is mentioned "From what I've researched with Unicode, it may not behave as expected in some languages. In that case, please deal with it in userland.". If my understanding here is wrong, please correct me. ucfirst and lcfirst are to uppercase/lowercase the first character of a word for characters that have an upper/lower case variant. Whether or not a word _should_ have an uppercase or lower case character is not important and currently doesn't behave in such a way for ucfirst and lcfirst. To me this isn't unexpected behavior, that's exactly how I would expect it to behave. --- ## #122275 — Ayesh Karunaratne — 2024-02-02T09:15:16+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/122271#122275 · In reply to: #122273 > > On Fri, Feb 2, 2024 at 2:00 AM youkidearitai > wrote: > > > […] > In the proposal part is mentioned "From what I've researched with Unicode, > it may not behave as expected in some languages. In that case, please deal > with it in userland.". If my understanding here is wrong, please correct > me. ucfirst and lcfirst are to uppercase/lowercase the first character of a > word for characters that have an upper/lower case variant. Whether or not a > word _should_ have an uppercase or lower case character is not important > and currently doesn't behave in such a way for ucfirst and lcfirst. To me > this isn't unexpected behavior, that's exactly how I would expect it to > behave. > I think the author refers to the potential edge cases in certain Unicode mappings. There isn't an ucfirst mapping, but there are uppercase and titlecase mappings. Unicode titlecase mapping is different from uppercase mapping. This PR seems to be using uppercase mapping. This should not matter for a vast majority of characters, except for ligatures and digraphs. I'm not at all and expert in these edge cases, but I just wanted to put my two cents forth that I personally think using titlecase mapping on the first word would be the more appropriate approach. Thank you. --- ## #122276 — youkidearitai — 2024-02-02T09:27:24+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/122271#122276 · In reply to: #122275 2024年2月2日(金) 18:15 Ayesh Karunaratne : > > […] > > > I think the author refers to the potential edge cases in certain Unicode mappings. There isn't an ucfirst mapping, but there are uppercase and titlecase mappings. > > Unicode titlecase mapping is different from uppercase mapping. This PR seems to be using uppercase mapping. This should not matter for a vast majority of characters, except for ligatures and digraphs. > > I'm not at all and expert in these edge cases, but I just wanted to put my two cents forth that I personally think using titlecase mapping on the first word would be the more appropriate approach. > > Thank you. Hi, Thank you for reply. > > I think the author refers to the potential edge cases in certain Unicode mappings. There isn't an ucfirst mapping, but there are uppercase and titlecase mappings. > Yes, Ayesh is right. This is a text that is the result of investigating edge cases. > I'm not at all and expert in these edge cases, but I just wanted to put my two cents forth that I personally think using titlecase mapping on the first word would be the more appropriate approach. I see. I'll change mb_ucfirst using titlecase. Thank you. Regards Yuya -- --------------------------- Yuya Hamada (tekimen) - https://tekitoh-memdhoi.info - https://github.com/youkidearitai --- ## #122289 — Tim Starling — 2024-02-05T23:33:06+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/122271#122289 · In reply to: #122276 > I see. I'll change mb_ucfirst using titlecase. Per my comments a month ago on the GitHub issue , I think it is much better to use title case for `mb_ucfirst()` than to use upper case, since conversion of the first character to upper case has the effect of corrupting text in the Georgian script, and initial lower-case ligatures are converted to a form which appears like two upper case letters. So I'm pleased to see this change to the PR. I would appreciate it if the RFC could also be updated to include this detail, since my vote depends on whether title case or upper case will be used. -- Tim Starling --- ## #122290 — youkidearitai — 2024-02-06T02:40:10+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/122271#122290 · In reply to: #122289 2024年2月6日(火) 8:33 Tim Starling : > > > > I see. I'll change mb_ucfirst using titlecase. > > Per my comments a month ago on the GitHub issue , I think it is much better to use title case for `mb_ucfirst()` than to use upper case, since conversion of the first character to upper case has the effect of corrupting text in the Georgian script, and initial lower-case ligatures are converted to a form which appears like two upper case letters. So I'm pleased to see this change to the PR. > > I would appreciate it if the RFC could also be updated to include this detail, since my vote depends on whether title case or upper case will be used. > > -- Tim Starling Hi, Tim Thank you for your comment. I modified to "uses unicode case title" in an RFC. Regards Yuya -- --------------------------- Yuya Hamada (tekimen) - https://tekitoh-memdhoi.info - https://github.com/youkidearitai --- ## #122307 — Juliette Reinders Folmer — 2024-02-06T17:55:44+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/122271#122307 · In reply to: #122290 > 2024年2月6日(火) 8:33 Tim Starling : > > […] > Hi, Tim > > Thank you for your comment. > I modified to "uses unicode case title" in an RFC. > > Regards > Yuya > Help me out here, but doesn't changing what is actually proposed in an RFC **after** the vote has started invalidate the vote ? Shouldn't the vote be closed/withdrawn and restarted in that case ? --- ## #122311 — youkidearitai — 2024-02-06T19:49:25+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/122271#122311 · In reply to: #122307 2024年2月7日(水) 2:56 Juliette Reinders Folmer : > > > > […] > > Help me out here, but doesn't changing what is actually proposed in an > RFC **after** the vote has started invalidate the vote ? > > Shouldn't the vote be closed/withdrawn and restarted in that case ? Hi, Internals. Juliette, Thank you for pointing. I'm mistake. I checked the following and it was exactly as I said. https://wiki.php.net/RFC/voting#voting > A valid voting period must be declared when voting is started and must not be changed during the vote. I broke this rule. In this case, should I return to "Under discussion"? I apologize to those who voted, admitting lack of discussion, I want to reorganize. Regards Yuya -- --------------------------- Yuya Hamada (tekimen) - https://tekitoh-memdhoi.info - https://github.com/youkidearitai --- ## #122317 — youkidearitai — 2024-02-06T20:19:45+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/122271#122317 · In reply to: #122311 2024年2月7日(水) 4:49 youkidearitai : > > 2024年2月7日(水) 2:56 Juliette Reinders Folmer : > > […] > > Hi, Internals. > > Juliette, Thank you for pointing. > I'm mistake. > > I checked the following and it was exactly as I said. > https://wiki.php.net/RFC/voting#voting > > > […] > > I broke this rule. In this case, should I return to "Under discussion"? > I apologize to those who voted, admitting lack of discussion, I want > to reorganize. > > Regards > Yuya Hi, Internals. This an RFC is revert to "Under Discussion". https://wiki.php.net/rfc/howto Referenced Section 7.3: > A serious issue with your RFC needs to be addressed: update the status of your RFC page and its section on https://wiki.php.net/RFC to “Under Discussion” and continue again from step 5. I would like to wait another two weeks to vote again. Scheduled for February 21st, GMT 00:00 restart voting. Please feel free to comment. I apologize to everyone who voted again. Regards Yuya -- --------------------------- Yuya Hamada (tekimen) - https://tekitoh-memdhoi.info - https://github.com/youkidearitai --- ## #122321 — Ayesh Karunaratne — 2024-02-07T02:43:30+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/122271#122321 · In reply to: #122289 > > […] > > Per my comments a month ago on the GitHub issue , I think it is much > better to use title case for `mb_ucfirst()` than to use upper case, > since conversion of the first character to upper case has the effect > of corrupting text in the Georgian script, and initial lower-case > ligatures are converted to a form which appears like two upper case > letters. So I'm pleased to see this change to the PR. > > I would appreciate it if the RFC could also be updated to include this > detail, since my vote depends on whether title case or upper case will > be used. > > -- Tim Starling > Hi Tim, Now that the RFC is restarted, could you mention some examples in Georgian that might be good test cases? I was thinking there might be some good test cases in Turkish, but couldn't find any. The RFC has examples (https://github.com/php/php-src/pull/13161) in Vietnamese, but they are correct for both "uppercase first character" and titlecase conversions. Thank you. --- ## #122322 — Tim Starling — 2024-02-07T03:56:40+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/122271#122322 · In reply to: #122321 > > Hi Tim, > Now that the RFC is restarted, could you mention some examples in > Georgian that might be good test cases? > > I was thinking there might be some good test cases in Turkish, but > couldn't find any. The RFC has examples > (https://github.com/php/php-src/pull/13161) in Vietnamese, but they > are correct for both "uppercase first character" and titlecase > conversions. Any Georgian word would do. Your ASCII test case is "abc". The Georgian equivalent for that would be "აბგ" (ani bani gani, U+10D0 U+10D1 U+10D2) which should remain the same after passing through `mb_ucfirst()`. Compare mb_strtoupper("აბგ") -> "ᲐᲑᲒ" (U+1C90 U+1C91 U+1C92). On the task I mentioned that ligatures are also affected. I gave the example mb_ucfirst("lj") -> "Lj", that is, U+01C9 -> U+01C8. You could add a test case for that. Compare mb_strtoupper("lj") -> "LJ" (U+01C7). To repeat my rationale -- we can view `ucfirst()` either through a technical lens (convert the first character of a string to upper case) or through a natural language lens (convert a string to sentence case, with the initial letter capitalised per local conventions). I am arguing to make `mb_ucfirst()` be a natural language extension of `ucfirst()`, because applying the technical extension would produce results that look quite jarring in a natural language context. There are some edge cases which are not quite right. To really do a good job, a new case map will be needed. But if we document it as being for natural language, and set the right expectations, we can fix the edge cases later. -- Tim Starling --- ## #122340 — youkidearitai — 2024-02-08T08:03:32+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/122271#122340 · In reply to: #122322 2024年2月7日(水) 12:56 Tim Starling : > > > > […] > > Any Georgian word would do. Your ASCII test case is "abc". The > Georgian equivalent for that would be "აბგ" (ani bani gani, U+10D0 > U+10D1 U+10D2) which should remain the same after passing through > `mb_ucfirst()`. Compare mb_strtoupper("აბგ") -> "ᲐᲑᲒ" (U+1C90 U+1C91 > U+1C92). > > On the task I mentioned that ligatures are also affected. I gave the > example mb_ucfirst("lj") -> "Lj", that is, U+01C9 -> U+01C8. You could > add a test case for that. Compare mb_strtoupper("lj") -> "LJ" (U+01C7). > > To repeat my rationale -- we can view `ucfirst()` either through a > technical lens (convert the first character of a string to upper case) > or through a natural language lens (convert a string to sentence case, > with the initial letter capitalised per local conventions). I am > arguing to make `mb_ucfirst()` be a natural language extension of > `ucfirst()`, because applying the technical extension would produce > results that look quite jarring in a natural language context. > > There are some edge cases which are not quite right. To really do a > good job, a new case map will be needed. But if we document it as > being for natural language, and set the right expectations, we can fix > the edge cases later. > > -- Tim Starling > Hi, Tim Thank you for Georgian test case. I added to test case. If other any comments, please feel free. Regards Yuya -- --------------------------- Yuya Hamada (tekimen) - https://tekitoh-memdhoi.info - https://github.com/youkidearitai --- ## #122434 — youkidearitai — 2024-02-19T09:55:15+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/122271#122434 ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: youkidearitai Date: 2024年2月19日(月) 18:46 Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV][VOTE][RFC] mb_ucfirst and mb_lcfirst functions To: 2024年2月7日(水) 5:19 youkidearitai : > > 2024年2月7日(水) 4:49 youkidearitai : > > […] > > Hi, Internals. > This an RFC is revert to "Under Discussion". > > https://wiki.php.net/rfc/howto > Referenced Section 7.3: > > […] > > I would like to wait another two weeks to vote again. > Scheduled for February 21st, GMT 00:00 restart voting. > > Please feel free to comment. > > I apologize to everyone who voted again. > > Regards > Yuya > > -- > --------------------------- > Yuya Hamada (tekimen) > - https://tekitoh-memdhoi.info > - https://github.com/youkidearitai > ----------------------------- I send below message, but kicked by internals. Resend to it. Hi, Internals. This is a reminder. If nothing another comments, This an RFC restart voting at February 21st, GMT 00:00. Thank you. Regards Yuya -- --------------------------- Yuya Hamada (tekimen) - https://tekitoh-memdhoi.info - https://github.com/youkidearitai --- ## #122444 — youkidearitai — 2024-02-21T00:16:38+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/122271#122444 · In reply to: #122434 2024年2月19日(月) 18:55 youkidearitai : > > ---------- Forwarded message --------- > From: youkidearitai > Date: 2024年2月19日(月) 18:46 > Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV][VOTE][RFC] mb_ucfirst and mb_lcfirst functions > To: > > > 2024年2月7日(水) 5:19 youkidearitai : > > […] > > I send below message, but kicked by internals. Resend to it. > > Hi, Internals. > This is a reminder. > > If nothing another comments, This an RFC restart voting at February > 21st, GMT 00:00. > Thank you. > > Regards > Yuya > > -- > --------------------------- > Yuya Hamada (tekimen) > - https://tekitoh-memdhoi.info > - https://github.com/youkidearitai > ----------------------------- Hi, Internals. Restarted voting phase to Multibyte for ucfirst, lcfirst functions, mb_ucfirst mb_lcfirst. https://wiki.php.net/rfc/mb_ucfirst Voting end at March 7th 00:00:00 GMT. Thanks Yuya -- --------------------------- Yuya Hamada (tekimen) - https://tekitoh-memdhoi.info - https://github.com/youkidearitai --- ## #122581 — youkidearitai — 2024-03-07T01:38:57+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/122271#122581 · In reply to: #122444 2024年2月21日(水) 9:16 youkidearitai : > > 2024年2月19日(月) 18:55 youkidearitai : > > […] > > Hi, Internals. > > Restarted voting phase to Multibyte for ucfirst, lcfirst functions, > mb_ucfirst mb_lcfirst. > https://wiki.php.net/rfc/mb_ucfirst > > Voting end at March 7th 00:00:00 GMT. > > Thanks > Yuya > > -- > --------------------------- > Yuya Hamada (tekimen) > - https://tekitoh-memdhoi.info > - https://github.com/youkidearitai > ----------------------------- Hi, Internals The RFC has been ended. Result is accepted (yes: 14, no: 0) Thank you very much for voting. Regards Yuya -- --------------------------- Yuya Hamada (tekimen) - https://tekitoh-memdhoi.info - https://github.com/youkidearitai