# [RFC] Deprecate and Remove utf8_encode and utf8_decode - Thread: https://externals.io/message/117079 - Original archive: https://news-web.php.net/php.internals/117079 - Started by Rowan Tommins on 2022-02-20T18:55:31+00:00 - Messages: 23 - Reply by email to internals@lists.php.net - More for agents: search with https://externals.io/search.md?q={query} · JSON API at https://externals.io/api · documentation at https://externals.io/llms.txt --- ## #117079 — Rowan Tommins — 2022-02-20T18:55:31+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/117079#117079 Good $daypart everybody, I would like to open discussion on an RFC to deprecate and later remove the functions `utf8_encode()` and `utf8_decode()` https://wiki.php.net/rfc/remove_utf8_decode_and_utf8_encode This is not a straight-forward decision, because these functions are not actually broken, and do have a narrow set of legitimate use cases - they convert between ISO 8859-1 (the single-byte encoding also known as "Latin 1") and UTF-8. However, their naming and implementation leads to them so frequently being misused, that I believe their inclusion in the language does more harm than good. By deprecating and removing them, we can encourage users to specify their source and target encodings explicitly using one of several more flexible functions. In previous discussions, alternatives have been proposed to improve these functions, but I am not convinced this is in the long-term interest of the language (see "Rejected Features" section in the RFC). Note: one of the alternatives, UConverter::transcode, is currently undocumented; I have written a documentation patch to address this and other issues, regardless of the RFC's result: https://github.com/php/doc-en/pull/1418 Your feedback on the RFC, and the proposal itself, are welcome. Regards, -- Rowan Tommins [IMSoP] --- ## #117081 — Craig Francis — 2022-02-20T21:24:19+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/117079#117081 · In reply to: #117079 > I would like to open discussion on an RFC to deprecate and later remove > the functions `utf8_encode()` and `utf8_decode()` > > https://wiki.php.net/rfc/remove_utf8_decode_and_utf8_encode > Thanks Rowan. Whenever I see these functions being used (including when I used them), it's been, as you note, "commonly misunderstood" - so I'd be happy to see the back of them. Only query I have is about the availability of different functions... not sure why, but the documentation says these are provided by the "xml" extension, even though it looks like they are in `./standard/string.c` (your pull request seems to correct this)... so I assume projects have used these functions on the basis that they are always available... I suppose you could argue that "iconv" is enabled by default, so that's hopefully reliable (even though it can be disabled with `--without-iconv`)... whereas "mbstring" and "intl" are non-default extensions. Craig --- ## #117082 — Rowan Tommins — 2022-02-20T23:11:49+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/117079#117082 · In reply to: #117081 > > Only query I have is about the availability of different functions... > not sure why, but the documentation says these are provided by the > "xml" extension, even though it looks like they are in > `./standard/string.c` (your pull request seems to correct this)... so > I assume projects have used these functions on the basis that they are > always available... I suppose you could argue that "iconv" is enabled > by default, so that's hopefully reliable (even though it can be > disabled with `--without-iconv`)... whereas "mbstring" and "intl" are > non-default extensions. Yes, since 7.2, utf8_encode and utf8_decode have been always available; before that, they were in ext/xml (which in practice meant *nearly* always available). The fact that none of the alternatives are guaranteed to be available is unfortunate, but by their nature they are large amounts of code, so moving or replicating them in core is not really an option. I don't have hard facts to back it up, but my impression is that ext/mbstring is quite commonly installed, and required by apps and libraries. Unlike the other two, it has no system dependencies, because the implementation is entirely in PHP's source tree. I'm not sure how often iconv is enabled (default according to php.net doesn't necessarily mean default according to Ubuntu / Centos / cheap shared hosting), but its functionality isn't very portable between systems - for instance, 3v4l.org rejects 'ISO-8859-1' as an encoding [https://3v4l.org/biGa8], but my local system accepts it, although both report `ICONV_IMPL` as "glibc". ext/intl is by far the most powerful of the three extensions, albeit extremely poorly documented; but it may not be installed as often, because that power comes from a large external library (ICU). The bright side is that if you really do only need one encoding pair, implementing in pure PHP is pretty trivial, and there are multiple polyfills already out there. That leaves a minority of a minority of a minority, who a) actually need Latin1 <-> UTF-8, and no other encodings; b) can't rely on any of the three listed extensions; AND c) care enough about performance that a pure PHP implementation is problematic. Regards, -- Rowan Tommins [IMSoP] --- ## #117083 — Craig Francis — 2022-02-20T23:54:46+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/117079#117083 · In reply to: #117082 > I don't have hard facts to back it up, but my impression is that > ext/mbstring is quite commonly installed, and required by apps and > libraries. Unlike the other two, it has no system dependencies, because > the implementation is entirely in PHP's source tree. > Thanks for confirming those details Rowan. I'm just wondering, and this would not be necessary... considering how most systems need to deal with UTF-8 data today, could an argument be made for enabling etc/mbstring by default? I'm fairly sure Ubuntu and CentOS need to install the package `php-mbstring` separately; whereas my limited experience with cheep/shared hosting, they tend to have it enabled. Then `mb_convert_encoding()` could become the default suggested alternative, and everyone could trust functions like `mb_strlen()` are available as well. Just for my own interest - technically mbstring uses libmbfl, but that's already available from /ext/mbstring/libmbfl/ Craig --- ## #117087 — Rowan Tommins — 2022-02-21T09:09:12+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/117079#117087 · In reply to: #117083 > I'm just wondering, and this would not be necessary... considering how > most systems need to deal with UTF-8 data today, could an argument be > made for enabling etc/mbstring by default? > > I'm fairly sure Ubuntu and CentOS need to install the package > `php-mbstring` separately; whereas my limited experience with > cheep/shared hosting, they tend to have it enabled. Unfortunately, enabling by default in the distributed source files won't make any difference to that situation, as anything that can be built as a separate library file can (and seemingly will) be split into a separate package in a binary distribution. Making the extension always available (impossible to compile without it) is a potential option, and I think has been suggested before; I'm not sure of the exact pros and cons. > everyone could trust functions like `mb_strlen()` are available as well. I would personally encourage everyone to have ext/intl installed and use `grapheme_strlen()` instead of `mb_strlen()`, because knowing whether a particular instance of the string "Nguyễn" is written with 6, 7, or 8 code points is not nearly as useful as knowing that it looks like 6 "characters" to a user either way. Regards, -- Rowan Tommins [IMSoP] --- ## #117102 — Craig Francis — 2022-02-21T15:52:57+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/117079#117102 · In reply to: #117087 > Making the extension always available (impossible to compile without it) > is a potential option, and I think has been suggested before; I'm not > sure of the exact pros and cons. > [...] I would personally encourage everyone to have ext/intl installed and use > `grapheme_strlen()` instead of `mb_strlen()`, because knowing whether a > particular instance of the string "Nguyễn" is written with 6, 7, or 8 > code points is not nearly as useful as knowing that it looks like 6 > "characters" to a user either way. > Good point. I would like something that can be relied on to convert a strings character encoding... I assume it's a question of ext/mbstring having all of its dependencies already present (easier to compile?), vs ext/intl potentially being more useful (if a little bigger?). Craig --- ## #117103 — Christoph M. Becker — 2022-02-21T16:21:42+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/117079#117103 · In reply to: #117102 > > > > […] > > [...] > > I would personally encourage everyone to have ext/intl installed and use > > […] > > Good point. > > I would like something that can be relied on to convert a strings character > encoding... I assume it's a question of ext/mbstring having all of its > dependencies already present (easier to compile?), vs ext/intl potentially > being more useful (if a little bigger?). We cannot make any extension with external dependencies mandatory. If we would require ext/intl, we had to bundle ICU, which is highly unlikely to happen. Making ext/mbstring (without ext/mbregex) mandatory would be an option, but there should be a separate RFC about that. -- Christoph M. Becker --- ## #117104 — Alain D D Williams — 2022-02-21T16:29:53+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/117079#117104 · In reply to: #117102 > I would personally encourage everyone to have ext/intl installed and use > > […] Looking at the description of `grapheme_strlen()` I note that it can return null. However it does not say why. https://www.php.net/manual/en/function.grapheme-strlen.php Digging in the code I see that it will return null if intl_convert_utf8_to_utf16() fails. I think because of one of: U_BUFFER_OVERFLOW_ERROR means that *target buffer is not large enough U_STRING_NOT_TERMINATED_WARNING usually means that the input string is empty u_strFromUTF8() failing. -- Alain Williams Linux/GNU Consultant - Mail systems, Web sites, Networking, Programmer, IT Lecturer. +44 (0) 787 668 0256 https://www.phcomp.co.uk/ Parliament Hill Computers Ltd. Registration Information: https://www.phcomp.co.uk/Contact.html #include Looking at the description of `grapheme_strlen()` I note that it can return null. > However it does not say why. Huh, that feels like a bug to me, since it can also return false, which is the more standard way of indicating failure. The obvious failure case is an input string that's not valid UTF-8, e.g. grapheme_strlen("\xFF"). It appears that currently returns null; so I'm not actually sure how you'd trigger the false case. Regards, -- Rowan Tommins [IMSoP] --- ## #117110 — Christoph M. Becker — 2022-02-21T18:48:50+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/117079#117110 · In reply to: #117106 > > > > […] > Huh, that feels like a bug to me, since it can also return false, which > is the more standard way of indicating failure. This is not the only function which returns null or false for different kinds of failures. > The obvious failure case is an input string that's not valid UTF-8, e.g. > grapheme_strlen("\xFF"). It appears that currently returns null; so I'm > not actually sure how you'd trigger the false case. false is returned, if the internal function grapheme_get_break_iterator() fails. I'm not sure under which circumstances that function may fail, but from looking at the code and the ICU documentation[1], it seems we're relying on functionality which is deprecated as of ICU 52; it's probably a good idea to adjust the code, and to possibly bump the ICU version requirements (currently, ICU >= 50.1 is required). [1] -- Christoph M. Becker --- ## #117267 — Rowan Tommins — 2022-03-04T23:27:08+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/117079#117267 · In reply to: #117079 > Good $daypart everybody, > > I would like to open discussion on an RFC to deprecate and later > remove the functions `utf8_encode()` and `utf8_decode()` > > https://wiki.php.net/rfc/remove_utf8_decode_and_utf8_encode Hi all, I have made some minor updates to this RFC, to explicitly recommend mb_convert_encoding as the alternative. See the "Alternatives to Removed Functionality" for the reasoning. If there is no further feedback, I will open voting some time next week, so if you have any concerns or queries please let me know. Regards, -- Rowan Tommins [IMSoP] --- ## #117403 — Rowan Tommins — 2022-03-23T13:46:44+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/117079#117403 · In reply to: #117079 > > I would like to open discussion on an RFC to deprecate and later > remove the functions `utf8_encode()` and `utf8_decode()` > > https://wiki.php.net/rfc/remove_utf8_decode_and_utf8_encode Final chance for feedback on this RFC, as revised, before I put it to a vote. There's been very little reaction on this thread, which I'm hoping means everyone's either planning to vote "Yes" or just doesn't care... Regards, -- Rowan Tommins [IMSoP] --- ## #117405 — Wade Rossmann — 2022-03-23T18:06:10+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/117079#117405 · In reply to: #117403 As someone who has spent a _lot_ of time on IRC and StackOverflow answering encoding questions over the last 10 years or so I am 100% behind this change, even though I'm not able to vote for it. Thank you for putting this RFC forward. On Wed, Mar 23, 2022 at 6:47 AM Rowan Tommins wrote: > > > […] > > > Final chance for feedback on this RFC, as revised, before I put it to a > vote. > > There's been very little reaction on this thread, which I'm hoping means > everyone's either planning to vote "Yes" or just doesn't care... > > Regards, > > -- > Rowan Tommins > [IMSoP] > > -- > > To unsubscribe, visit: https://www.php.net/unsub.php --- ## #117409 — Juliette Reinders Folmer — 2022-03-23T23:39:34+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/117079#117409 · In reply to: #117403 > > > […] > > > Final chance for feedback on this RFC, as revised, before I put it to > a vote. > > There's been very little reaction on this thread, which I'm hoping > means everyone's either planning to vote "Yes" or just doesn't care... > > Regards, > While I agree the functions are often used incorrectly, what worries me about this RFC is that the only viable alternatives for these functions are in two optional extensions, which in practice will mean lots of projects will need to start polyfilling the old functions and/or start including a polyfill for one of the extensions, as they can not rely on those optional extensions being turned on. --- ## #117411 — Rowan Tommins — 2022-03-24T09:32:59+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/117079#117411 · In reply to: #117409 > > While I agree the functions are often used incorrectly, what worries > me about this RFC is that the only viable alternatives for these > functions are in two optional extensions, which in practice will mean > lots of projects will need to start polyfilling the old functions > and/or start including a polyfill for one of the extensions, as they > can not rely on those optional extensions being turned on. > While I certainly understand this concern, the more I look into it, the less worried I am, because so many projects already require the mbstring extension. The list includes projects like PHPUnit, Laravel, Drupal, and phpBB. A lot of others will probably detect it at run-time, and disable certain functionality - WooCommerce lists it as required only for non-English sites, for instance. There probably is a case for making mbstring always-on rather than optional, but that perhaps requires a bigger discussion around what a "minimum" PHP should include. Why is XML support not always enabled, for instance? If these functions were proposed today, under better names but the same feature set, I don't think mbstring being optional would be accepted as reasoning for adding them to core. So the only reason to keep them is if they're widely (and successfully) used, which I've not found evidence for. Regards, -- Rowan Tommins [IMSoP] --- ## #117412 — Christian Schneider — 2022-03-24T09:52:26+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/117079#117412 · In reply to: #117411 Am 24.03.2022 um 10:32 schrieb Rowan Tommins : > > > […] [...] > If these functions were proposed today, under better names but the same feature set, I don't think mbstring being optional would be accepted as reasoning for adding them to core. So the only reason to keep them is if they're widely (and successfully) used, which I've not found evidence for. This argument is somewhat broken: Not adding something because an alternative exists is not the same as removing something (requiring code changes) where an alternative exists. Don't get me wrong: I'm on the fence if deprecating and later removing is the right thing to do, I'm not completely against it. I have one issue with the wording in the RFC: While “Function utf8_encode is deprecated; check usage is correct and consider mb_convert_encoding or other replacement.” suggests to replace it, the part about checking the usage implies that if someone is sure about the correct usage it is fine to keep using `utf8_encode()`. But as the proposal wants to remove it for 9.0 I think this is somewhat misleading. Regards, - Chris --- ## #117413 — Rowan Tommins — 2022-03-24T11:19:25+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/117079#117413 · In reply to: #117412 > > […] > This argument is somewhat broken: Not adding something because an alternative exists is not the same as removing something (requiring code changes) where an alternative exists. Absolutely, and an earlier draft of my e-mail said that more explicitly, but I edited for conciseness. I was trying to make the distinction that we wouldn't want to tell new users "if you want to measure the length of the string, install ext/strlen"; but telling new users "if you want to convert encodings, install ext/mbstring" is probably reasonable. You are absolutely right that that does *not* apply to *existing* uses of the functions, and there will be some proportion of users / libraries who were previously using these functions successfully, but do not have mbstring installed / required. I think the usage is low enough, and the install base of mbstring is high enough, that that won't affect many people; but it's hard to prove that conclusively. In the end, we have to weigh two costs: the cost to *new* users of leaving these confusing functions in place; and the cost to some portion of *existing* users of forcing them to change their code, and possibly install ext-mbstring (or some alternative). Doing nothing is not automatically better. > I have one issue with the wording in the RFC: While “Function utf8_encode is deprecated; check usage is correct and consider mb_convert_encoding or other replacement.” suggests to replace it, the part about checking the usage implies that if someone is sure about the correct usage it is fine to keep using `utf8_encode()`. But as the proposal wants to remove it for 9.0 I think this is somewhat misleading. That's a fair point. The intention was to encourage people to look at whether they were using the function right in the first place, not blindly replace it with mb_convert_encoding, since the whole point of the deprecation is that they probably aren't. I'm not sure how to concisely say "replace with mb_convert_encoding if you actually need to, but maybe you can just delete this function call and your code will be better". Regards, -- Rowan Tommins [IMSoP] --- ## #117416 — Björn Larsson via internals — 2022-03-24T15:51:14+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/117079#117416 · In reply to: #117403 Den 2022-03-23 kl. 14:46, skrev Rowan Tommins: > > > […] > > > Final chance for feedback on this RFC, as revised, before I put it to a > vote. > > There's been very little reaction on this thread, which I'm hoping means > everyone's either planning to vote "Yes" or just doesn't care... > > Regards, > Well, the usecase I can provide is that we have a site with content in ISO9959-1 (Latin 1). Now the utf8_decode are used in the backend when the webapps and site are communicating with DB, e.g. in Ajax calls. The webapps are built in Javascript. Our feedback would be that the usage of this function have had zero issues or bugs for more then five years that e.g. the apps have been in production. So in this specific use case there is no benefit at the moment with this removal. OTOH, the usage of this function is mostly wrapped so it's not a big job changing it and it's good that the RFC points out alternatives, where we would go for mbstring. I also find the usage of both functions in one of our most important Open Source libraries. How important they are there I don't know. r//Björn --- ## #117419 — Rowan Tommins — 2022-03-24T18:48:04+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/117079#117419 · In reply to: #117416 > Well, the usecase I can provide is that we have a site with content > in ISO9959-1 (Latin 1). Thanks for the data point. Out of curiosity, what language is the site in, and where are you based? One of the things missing from Latin-1 is the Euro symbol (because it wasn't invented yet), so I'm guessing your site doesn't need that? > I also find the usage of both functions in one of our most important > Open Source libraries. How important they are there I don't know. Can you point me to the library in question? I'd be interested to see how they're using it. Regards, -- Rowan Tommins [IMSoP] --- ## #117423 — Björn Larsson via internals — 2022-03-25T01:12:01+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/117079#117423 · In reply to: #117419 Den 2022-03-24 kl. 19:48, skrev Rowan Tommins: > > > […] > > > Thanks for the data point. Out of curiosity, what language is the site > in, and where are you based? > It's in swedish and I'm located in Sweden. > One of the things missing from Latin-1 is the Euro symbol (because it > wasn't invented yet), so I'm guessing your site doesn't need that? > No, we are not using that one. In one specific case for payment we just write euro ;-) > > > […] > > > Can you point me to the library in question? I'd be interested to see > how they're using it. > Yes, it's the Revive Ad server. At the moment we are on v4, going for v5.4 as soon it's released. Regards //Björn Larsson --- ## #117424 — php@beccati.com — 2022-03-25T08:58:46+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/117079#117424 · In reply to: #117423 Hi Bjorn, > > […] > Yes, it's the Revive Ad server. At the moment we are on v4, going for > v5.4 as soon it's released. Thanks, I was supposed to check myself, but you beat me to it! From a cursory look: - some calls are wrapped in a function_exists check and are lower priority then mbstring or iconv. - some are surely inappropriate usages. If not 5.4.0, I'll make sure the matter is fully taken care of in a subsequent release. So please, I'm all for burning utf8_en/decode with fire in 9.0. Cheers -- Matteo Beccati Development & Consulting - http://www.beccati.com/ --- ## #117434 — Rowan Tommins — 2022-03-26T22:22:44+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/117079#117434 · In reply to: #117413 > > […] > > > That's a fair point. The intention was to encourage people to look at > whether they were using the function right in the first place, not > blindly replace it with mb_convert_encoding, since the whole point of > the deprecation is that they probably aren't. I'm not sure how to > concisely say "replace with mb_convert_encoding if you actually need > to, but maybe you can just delete this function call and your code > will be better". Maybe I'm trying to be "too helpful" there. Should we just use the generic deprecation message, and let people look up the in-depth explanation in the manual? Anyone have any thoughts on that? Regards, -- Rowan Tommins [IMSoP] --- ## #117475 — Rowan Tommins — 2022-04-04T17:50:21+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/117079#117475 · In reply to: #117434 > Maybe I'm trying to be "too helpful" there. Should we just use the > generic deprecation message, and let people look up the in-depth > explanation in the manual? I've dropped the custom deprecation message from the proposal, as there's just not room for the subtlety I was trying to get across. I will open voting this time tomorrow unless anyone has any further comments. Regards, -- Rowan Tommins [IMSoP]