# PHP's mail servers suck - Thread: https://externals.io/message/100939 - Original archive: https://news-web.php.net/php.internals/100939 - Started by Sara Golemon on 2017-10-25T14:30:29+00:00 - Messages: 35 - Page 1 of 2: messages 1 to 25 (25 per page, add `?page=N` to the URL) - Next page: https://externals.io/message/100939.md?page=2 - Reply by email to internals@lists.php.net - More for agents: search with https://externals.io/search.md?q={query} · JSON API at https://externals.io/api · documentation at https://externals.io/llms.txt --- ## #100939 — Sara Golemon — 2017-10-25T14:30:29+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/100939#100939 Quick show of hands: Who's had a "looks like spam" bounce from php.net mail servers in the past... lets say the past month. Or how about the fact that new users tend to have a very hard time even subscribing to this list? This isn't directed at any one person because AFAICT, the maintainer of those systems is "nobody". Is it time to pick someone to actually maintain that pile of mierde? Maybe replace the pieces that haven't worked since the 90s? Fed up with something this basic not working, -Sara --- ## #100941 — Helmut K. C. Tessarek — 2017-10-25T16:05:31+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/100939#100941 · In reply to: #100939 > Quick show of hands: Who's had a "looks like spam" bounce from > php.net mail servers in the past... lets say the past month. Not last month, but in the past. Quite often actually. > This isn't directed at any one person because AFAICT, the maintainer > of those systems is "nobody". When I mentioned years ago that there was a problem with the mail server, people on this list became very agressive. I even stopped writing to this list for this exact reason. People on this list tend to react with hostility, when they hear something they don't like or don't agree with. Good luck. -- regards Helmut K. C. Tessarek KeyID 0xF7832007C11F128D Key fingerprint = 28A3 1666 4FE8 D72C CFD5 8B23 F783 2007 C11F 128D /* Thou shalt not follow the `NULL` pointer for chaos and madness await thee at its end. */ --- ## #100942 — Aidan Woods — 2017-10-25T19:38:36+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/100939#100942 · In reply to: #100941 To throw something else on the heap of things that need fixing in the mail servers: I occasionally get emails from the mailing list bot warning I'll be auto-unsubscribed because messages it is sending to me are are bouncing. (It sends me back the bounce notification it received, so I can see that the cause is failed DMARC signing requirements on messages from a certain domain). I attempted to forward the bounced email text to internals-owner@lists[.]php[.]net (which was listed in the email as the owner of the bot) along with a link to Google's support page on why it failed. I was unable to make contact because the forwarded message inevitably contained URLs and IPs both in my text and in the forwarded bounce mail, and so I ran into multiple "looks like spam" warnings. If anyone wants to debug this I can forward the emails I've got (though obviously I can't send them via this mailing list because of domains contained in the text 🤷‍♂️) On 25 October 2017 at 17:05, Helmut K. C. Tessarek wrote: > > > […] > > Not last month, but in the past. Quite often actually. > > > […] > > When I mentioned years ago that there was a problem with the mail > server, people on this list became very agressive. > > I even stopped writing to this list for this exact reason. People on > this list tend to react with hostility, when they hear something they > don't like or don't agree with. > > Good luck. > > -- > regards Helmut K. C. Tessarek KeyID 0xF7832007C11F128D > Key fingerprint = 28A3 1666 4FE8 D72C CFD5 8B23 F783 2007 C11F 128D > > /* > Thou shalt not follow the `NULL` pointer for chaos and madness > await thee at its end. > */ --- ## #100943 — lists@rhsoft.net — 2017-10-25T19:46:24+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/100939#100943 · In reply to: #100942 Am 25.10.2017 um 21:38 schrieb Aidan Woods: > To throw something else on the heap of things that need fixing in the mail > servers: > I occasionally get emails from the mailing list bot warning I'll be > auto-unsubscribed because messages it is sending to me are are bouncing. > (It sends me back the bounce notification it received, so I can see that > the cause is failed DMARC signing requirements on messages from a certain > domain) the wording "bounce" is wrong as you don't send active mails, you reject messages anyways, don't reject mailing-list messages mailing-lists are typically *not* a real spam problem and should be whitelisted which is easy in case of SPF on the envelope-domain spamd: result: . -100 - CUST_DNSWL_2_SENDERSC_L,CUST_DNSWL_7_ORG_L,CUST_SHORTCIRCUIT1,SHORTCIRCUIT,USER_IN_SPF_WHITELIST --- ## #100944 — Sanford Whiteman — 2017-10-25T20:01:43+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/100939#100944 · In reply to: #100943 > > the wording "bounce" is wrong as you don't send active mails, you reject > messages FYI, while incorrect, the wording comes from ezmlm, not Aidan: Messages to you from the internals mailing list seem to > have been bouncing. I've attached a copy of the first bounce > message I received. --- ## #100945 — Helmut K. C. Tessarek — 2017-10-25T20:22:46+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/100939#100945 · In reply to: #100942 > I occasionally get emails from the mailing list bot warning I'll be > auto-unsubscribed because messages it is sending to me are are bouncing. > (It sends me back the bounce notification it received, so I can see that > the cause is failed DMARC signing requirements on messages from a certain > domain). I attempted to forward the bounced email text to > internals-owner@lists[.]php[.]net (which was listed in the email as the > owner of the bot) along with a link to Google's support page on why it > failed. I was unable to make contact because the forwarded message > inevitably contained URLs and IPs both in my text and in the forwarded > bounce mail, and so I ran into multiple "looks like spam" warnings. Yep, got these too. I have a sieve rule now which discards these messages. (They became quite irritating after a while.) Sending a mail to internals-owner did not work either and when I wrote to the list, I got a lot of replies and berating messages that I should send this email to the mailing list owner. What a joke. -- regards Helmut K. C. Tessarek KeyID 0xF7832007C11F128D Key fingerprint = 28A3 1666 4FE8 D72C CFD5 8B23 F783 2007 C11F 128D /* Thou shalt not follow the `NULL` pointer for chaos and madness await thee at its end. */ --- ## #100948 — Aidan Woods — 2017-10-25T21:17:14+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/100939#100948 · In reply to: #100945 > anyways, don't reject mailing-list messages I don't reject the messages, Google rejects the messages because of failed DMARC requirements. See support[.]google[.]com/mail/answer/2451690 The error occurs when the php mailing list attempts to forward messages from a domain which has a (likey strict) DMARC policy, and sends emails as if it was the sender from the domain holding that policy. In any case, despite failed delivery due to the policy being an issue – it would be great if I wouldn't be unsubscribed from the mailing list because of an error that has nothing to do with me 🤷‍♂️ On 25 October 2017 at 21:22, Helmut K. C. Tessarek wrote: > > > […] > > Yep, got these too. I have a sieve rule now which discards these > messages. (They became quite irritating after a while.) > > Sending a mail to internals-owner did not work either and when I wrote > to the list, I got a lot of replies and berating messages that I should > send this email to the mailing list owner. What a joke. > > -- > regards Helmut K. C. Tessarek KeyID 0xF7832007C11F128D > Key fingerprint = 28A3 1666 4FE8 D72C CFD5 8B23 F783 2007 C11F 128D > > /* > Thou shalt not follow the `NULL` pointer for chaos and madness > await thee at its end. > */ --- ## #100950 — Tom Samplonius — 2017-10-25T22:28:02+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/100939#100950 · In reply to: #100948 > > > > […] > > I don't reject the messages, Google rejects the messages because of failed > DMARC requirements. See support[.]google[.]com/mail/answer/2451690 > > The error occurs when the php mailing list attempts to forward messages > from a domain which has a (likey strict) DMARC policy, and sends emails as > if it was the sender from the domain holding that policy. > > In any case, despite failed delivery due to the policy being an issue – it > would be great if I wouldn't be unsubscribed from the mailing list because > of an error that has nothing to do with me 🤷‍♂️ I’m using GSuite for email, and I’ve never received a warning from the php.net mail system that mail was bouncing anytime in the past two years, nor have I been automatically unsubscribed. That said, email is a lot harder than it looks. Tom --- ## #100951 — Alexander Lisachenko — 2017-10-26T07:23:34+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/100939#100951 · In reply to: #100939 Hi, internals! Just quick idea: what about moving from old-school mailing list with unclear subscription logic and ugly interface to the RFC project on GitHub? Maybe https://github.com/php/rfc or similar. There are cases when language developers actively use GitHub for maintaining RFC-s, label them and review directly in github issues. For example, https://github.com/rust-lang/rfcs Organizing internals in this way could give a chance for community to grow, because everyone knows how to raise an issue on GitHub and how to contribute to the documentation/RFC. GitHub also provides flexible way to subscribe to repo/issues/summons. Maybe it's a good time to move internals to the public open-source system? Best regards, Alexander 2017-10-26 1:28 GMT+03:00 Tom Samplonius : > > > […] > failed > > […] > as > > […] > it > > […] > because > > […] > > I’m using GSuite for email, and I’ve never received a warning from the > php.net mail system that mail was bouncing anytime in the past two years, > nor have I been automatically unsubscribed. > > That said, email is a lot harder than it looks. > > > Tom 2017-10-25 17:30 GMT+03:00 Sara Golemon : > Quick show of hands: Who's had a "looks like spam" bounce from php.net > mail servers in the past... lets say the past month. > Or how about the fact that new users tend to have a very hard time > even subscribing to this list? > This isn't directed at any one person because AFAICT, the maintainer > of those systems is "nobody". > Is it time to pick someone to actually maintain that pile of mierde? > Maybe replace the pieces that haven't worked since the 90s? > > Fed up with something this basic not working, > -Sara --- ## #100952 — Florian Anderiasch — 2017-10-26T11:31:17+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/100939#100952 · In reply to: #100951 > Organizing internals in this way could give a chance for community to grow, > because everyone knows how to raise an issue on GitHub and how to > contribute to the documentation/RFC. > > GitHub also provides flexible way to subscribe to repo/issues/summons. > Maybe it's a good time to move internals to the public open-source system? Mailing lists in general are fine, the problem at hand really is the php.net mail infrastructure, so I'd suggest sticking to solving that problem. If you want to abandon email as an official discussion medium for this project, please write up a RFC - https://wiki.php.net/rfc Greetings, Florian --- ## #100954 — Sebastian Bergmann — 2017-10-26T12:32:06+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/100939#100954 · In reply to: #100952 Am 26.10.2017 um 13:31 schrieb Florian Anderiasch: > Mailing lists in general are fine, the problem at hand really is the > php.net mail infrastructure, so I'd suggest sticking to solving that > problem. +1 --- ## #101085 — Sara Golemon — 2017-11-07T13:38:21+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/100939#101085 · In reply to: #100939 Biweekly reminder that PHP mail servers suck. > Quick show of hands: Who's had a "looks like spam" bounce from php.net > mail servers in the past... lets say the past month. > Or how about the fact that new users tend to have a very hard time > even subscribing to this list? > This isn't directed at any one person because AFAICT, the maintainer > of those systems is "nobody". > Is it time to pick someone to actually maintain that pile of mierde? > Maybe replace the pieces that haven't worked since the 90s? > > Fed up with something this basic not working, > -Sara --- ## #101086 — Eli White — 2017-11-07T13:48:03+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/100939#101086 · In reply to: #101085 Just chiming in that I have constantly had issues (since you asked for hands), get emails denied (let's see if this one goes through), and semi-constant threads of being auto-removed because of bounces that have nothing to do with me (see above gmail discussion). Yeah, it sucks. And it's been brought up in the past. And invariably it all falls back to "Oh, only one person really knew how to maintain that random mail server and they aren't active anymore, and now no-one really does, so it just keeps running and no-one wants to take the effort to try to update/fix/move it" Eli PS. Not it > Biweekly reminder that PHP mail servers suck. > > > > […] --- ## #101087 — Andreas Heigl — 2017-11-07T14:07:41+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/100939#101087 · In reply to: #101086 Hey all. Am 07.11.17 um 14:48 schrieb Eli White: > Just chiming in that I have constantly had issues (since you asked for > hands), get emails denied (let's see if this one goes through), and > semi-constant threads of being auto-removed because of bounces that have > nothing to do with me (see above gmail discussion). > > Yeah, it sucks. And it's been brought up in the past. And invariably it > all falls back to "Oh, only one person really knew how to maintain that > random mail server and they aren't active anymore, and now no-one really > does, so it just keeps running and no-one wants to take the effort to try > to update/fix/move it" Just a reminder: There where offers from people to help out (me included) but the response was so overwhelming that not one of them knew which answer to read first … When people offer help and the only reply they get is no reply at all that is not really a good thing to happen. So should PHP-internals want other people than the current usual suspects (that only a limited number of people by now know of) to help managing the infrastructure it would be great when they'd at least signal a "thanks, offer noted, we might come back to you". Even better with actually getting back… But as it is currently the chances are that we will have to live with a messy list-server and over time probably move somewhere else for discussions as the old system becomes more and more unreliable… Just my (frustrated) 0.02€ Cheers Andreas > > Eli > > PS. Not it > > > > > > […] > -- ,,, (o o) +---------------------------------------------------------ooO-(_)-Ooo-+ | Andreas Heigl | | mailto:andreas@heigl.org N 50°22'59.5" E 08°23'58" | | http://andreas.heigl.org http://hei.gl/wiFKy7 | +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ | http://hei.gl/root-ca | +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ --- ## #101088 — Peter Lind — 2017-11-07T14:07:56+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/100939#101088 · In reply to: #101086 Might be worth noting that fixing the mailing lists does not amount to taking on the php.net mail servers. The two are separate - just in case someone should be up for one, but not both tasks. > Just chiming in that I have constantly had issues (since you asked for > hands), get emails denied (let's see if this one goes through), and > semi-constant threads of being auto-removed because of bounces that have > nothing to do with me (see above gmail discussion). > > Yeah, it sucks. And it's been brought up in the past. And invariably it > all falls back to "Oh, only one person really knew how to maintain that > random mail server and they aren't active anymore, and now no-one really > does, so it just keeps running and no-one wants to take the effort to try > to update/fix/move it" > > Eli > > PS. Not it > > > > > > […] > -- CV: careers.stackoverflow.com/peterlind LinkedIn: plind Twitter: kafe15 --- ## #101090 — Eli White — 2017-11-07T15:40:43+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/100939#101090 · In reply to: #101088 > Might be worth noting that fixing the mailing lists does not amount to > taking on the php.net mail servers. The two are separate - just in case > someone should be up for one, but not both tasks. > In this case I believe that they are one and the same Peter. As the issues with the mailing list(s), are actually issues with the mail server itself. And Andreas is correct. Multiple times in the past people have stepped up and offered to help out. But they've either not been given any information how to do so (silence). Or in a couple cases where I know someone was brought into discussion, they were shipped off with a 'talk to person X', and person X ended up being "don't need help, I've got it". Really seems we have an issue here of "failure of democratic rule". No-one is empowered to tell someone that they can take it on. No-one even knows who/how to give access to someone to take it on. And in the rare case that someone does have the ability to give someone access, it's never granted. We need a way for infrastructure stuff like like to have a solid point person, who can give others power to handle things. Sounds like we have some people willing to help out. (Andreas? Sara?) — People just need to give them access and let things happen. Eli --- ## #101091 — Andreas Heigl — 2017-11-07T15:54:54+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/100939#101091 · In reply to: #101090 Am 07.11.17 um 16:40 schrieb Eli White: > > > > […] > > In this case I believe that they are one and the same Peter. As the > issues with the mailing list(s), are actually issues with the mail server > itself. And Andreas is correct. Multiple times in the past people have > stepped up and offered to help out. But they've either not been given any > information how to do so (silence). Or in a couple cases where I know > someone was brought into discussion, they were shipped off with a 'talk to > person X', and person X ended up being "don't need help, I've got it". > > Really seems we have an issue here of "failure of democratic rule". No-one > is empowered to tell someone that they can take it on. No-one even knows > who/how to give access to someone to take it on. And in the rare case that > someone does have the ability to give someone access, it's never granted. > > We need a way for infrastructure stuff like like to have a solid point > person, who can give others power to handle things. Sounds like we have > some people willing to help out. (Andreas? Sara?) — People just need to > give them access and let things happen. I'm (still) in! Cheers Andreas -- ,,, (o o) +---------------------------------------------------------ooO-(_)-Ooo-+ | Andreas Heigl | | mailto:andreas@heigl.org N 50°22'59.5" E 08°23'58" | | http://andreas.heigl.org http://hei.gl/wiFKy7 | +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ | http://hei.gl/root-ca | +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ --- ## #101092 — Chris — 2017-11-07T16:08:13+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/100939#101092 · In reply to: #101091 > Am 07.11.17 um 16:40 schrieb Eli White: > > […] > > I'm (still) in! I'd be willing to help out as well. I've offered to help with server work in the past, and have plenty of internals users that can vouch for me. > > Cheers > > Andreas > -Chris --- ## #101093 — mail@pmmaga.net — 2017-11-07T16:44:42+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/100939#101093 · In reply to: #101092 I'm not sure if the people who have access to the machines follow this mailing list as well, so I would suggest reaching out directly to the people listed as having access to the mailing lists machine (you can find that list here: https://wiki.php.net/systems/pb1). Also, there seems to be a systems@ mailing list as well (mentioned here: https://externals.io/message/97214) which may yield some actual response from the people involved. Regards, Pedro --- ## #101094 — Peter Lind — 2017-11-08T07:11:34+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/100939#101094 · In reply to: #101090 > Might be worth noting that fixing the mailing lists does not amount to > taking on the php.net mail servers. The two are separate - just in case > someone should be up for one, but not both tasks. > In this case I believe that they are one and the same Peter. As the issues with the mailing list(s), are actually issues with the mail server itself. You might be right, but as far as I can tell, the lists server handles receiving and sending for lists.php.net without the use of PHP.net. The only issue outside of lists.php.net would be DNS, but that's handled externally - the rest is handled on the lists server, by some derelict mailing list software. That's also what previous discussions on the topic bring up. --- ## #101095 — Rasmus Lerdorf — 2017-11-08T07:51:11+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/100939#101095 · In reply to: #101093 > I'm not sure if the people who have access to the machines follow this > mailing list as well, so I would suggest reaching out directly to the > people listed as having access to the mailing lists machine (you can find > that list here: https://wiki.php.net/systems/pb1). > > Also, there seems to be a systems@ mailing list as well (mentioned here: > https://externals.io/message/97214) which may yield some actual response > from the people involved. > Just saw this thread today. Yes, Pedro is right, infrastructure discussion belongs on systems@ not internals. So please send your volunteer requests there, but not just a generic offer to help. Please include a concrete description of what you plan on doing. As in which software or configuration changes. If it is just replace ezmlm with Mailman, then you are going to have to make a really really strong case for why you think a sideways migration like that will make any difference. It is also important to understand the difference between the list server and the mail server responsibilities. -Rasmus --- ## #101097 — Sara Golemon — 2017-11-08T11:09:34+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/100939#101097 · In reply to: #101095 > > > > […] > > Just saw this thread today. Yes, Pedro is right, infrastructure discussion > belongs on systems@ not internals. > > So please send your volunteer requests there, but not just a generic offer > to help. Please include a concrete description of what you plan on doing. > As in which software or configuration changes. If it is just replace ezmlm > with Mailman, then you are going to have to make a really really strong > case for why you think a sideways migration like that will make any > difference. It is also important to understand the difference between the > list server and the mail server responsibilities. > Without any generally available information about the existing email infrastructure, it's hard to make targeted comments about how to fix what is obviously broken with this system which literally nobody with the ability to fix cares about. That means a either a conversation (which should be a shared experience (therefore internals@) or an essentially open request for "I'd like to help, but I'll need the ability to poke around to figure out wtf is going on". -Sara --- ## #101098 — Michael Kliewe — 2017-11-08T11:59:40+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/100939#101098 · In reply to: #101097 Am 08.11.2017 um 12:09 schrieb Sara Golemon: > > > […] > Without any generally available information about the existing email > infrastructure, it's hard to make targeted comments about how to fix > what is obviously broken with this system which literally nobody with > the ability to fix cares about. That means a either a conversation > (which should be a shared experience (therefore internals@) or an > essentially open request for "I'd like to help, but I'll need the > ability to poke around to figure out wtf is going on". The problem seems to be the mailing list software, not the mail server. Mail servers just transfer bytes from A to B. The PHP mailing list software is not configured DMARC compliant. DMARC means, either SPF or DKIM has to be valid. The PHP mailing list changes the Subject (it adds [PHP-xxxx]), that's why the DKIM signature breaks. SPF breaks, because Gmail and others don't include the IP address of the PHP mailing list mailserver in their SPF records. So SPF also fails. Easiest fix should be: - Don't touch the email, especially don't change the Subject. Then the DKIM signature stays valid, and DMARC is happy. Maybe the better way: - Change the From:-Header to an email address that php.net owns, and put the original email address into the displayname. Like: Michael (mkliewe@gmx.de via PHP-DEV Mailing List) - Remove existing (now broken) DKIM-Signatures, and add php.net own DKIM signature (alternative: change to X-Original-DKIM-Signature) - Set the original From: email address into Reply-To: if you want - Because now it's "your" email, you can change the Subject + content as you like. Obviously the mailing list software has to support this procedure. In MailMan for example you can configure this with some settings: https://wiki.list.org/DEV/DMARC For ezmlm there seems to be something in 7.2.0: https://untroubled.org/ezmlm/archive/7.2.0/CHANGES  "- Added optional rewritefrom feature to ezmlm-send, automatically enabled when the sender has a "reject" DMARC policy." Hope this helps to see, that it has to be fixed in the mailing list software, not the mailserver. Michael --- ## #101099 — lists@rhsoft.net — 2017-11-08T12:27:06+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/100939#101099 · In reply to: #101098 Am 08.11.2017 um 12:59 schrieb Michael Kliewe: > The PHP mailing list software is not configured DMARC compliant. DMARC > means, either SPF or DKIM has to be valid. The PHP mailing list changes > the Subject (it adds [PHP-xxxx]), that's why the DKIM signature breaks. > SPF breaks, because Gmail and others don't include the IP address of the > PHP mailing list mailserver in their SPF records. So SPF also fails. nonsense - a mailing list does not forward with the original envelope Return-Path: internals-return-101098-lists=rhsoft.net@lists.php.net Received-SPF: Pass (mailfrom) identity=mailfrom; client-ip=76.75.200.58; helo=lists.php.net; --- ## #101100 — Michael Kliewe — 2017-11-08T12:36:34+00:00 URL: https://externals.io/message/100939#101100 · In reply to: #101099 Am 08.11.2017 um 13:27 schrieb lists@rhsoft.net: > > > Am 08.11.2017 um 12:59 schrieb Michael Kliewe: > > […] > > nonsense - a mailing list does not forward with the original envelope > > Return-Path: internals-return-101098-lists=rhsoft.net@lists.php.net > Received-SPF: Pass (mailfrom) identity=mailfrom; client-ip=76.75.200.58; >  helo=lists.php.net; nonsense. Read about DMARC alignment I was talking about the From: header. I just wanted to explain a bit, not in every detail (DMARC alignment for example). No need to be rude. Michael --- Next page: https://externals.io/message/100939.md?page=2