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Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 18:44:37 +0100
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Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC][Vote] Typed Properties
From: rowan.collins@gmail.com (Rowan Collins)

On 22/06/2016 16:58, Rasmus Schultz wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 22, 2016 at 11:59 AM, Lester Caine <lester@lsces.co.uk> wrote:
> Having worked in other gradually-typed languages like Dart and
> Typescript

Out of curiosity, do these languages perform the type analysis at 
compilation, or at run-time? I'm trying to collate some examples of how 
other languages have approached the problem.


> PHP feels crippled on this point - it's gradually-typed,
> but inconsistently so, and inconsistency is the worst kind of evil you
> can have in any programming language.

I absolutely agree, we need a plan for how to introduce a consistent 
gradual typing system. But this RFC is not that plan.



> The learning curve for new users isn't increased by the introduction
> of property type-hints, it's *decreased*

Except that this proposal doesn't actually make the language 
consistently type-checked. It adds a few more special cases where you 
can use type hints, with slightly different behaviour.

To carry on your imagined conversation:

- ooh, I can type-hint properties now!
- wait, what does this error mean? why would I not be able to assign 
this property by reference?
- oh, because the variable holding the reference would have to be 
type-hinted; how do I do that?
- oh, I can't...



> and then in addition they need to go and learn about
> php-doc and offline inspection tools and IDEs and so forth.

Interestingly, this is the direction that Hack and Python have both 
apparently chosen to enshrine - the syntax is baked into the language, 
but not actually enforced by the standard compiler or run-time in any 
way. Indeed, "gradual typing" as defined by Jeremy Siek only really 
makes sense in the context of static analysis.



> Sorry, for the rant, but anti-type-hints is just anti-consistency. We
> have type-hints, now let's please take another step towards finishing
> the job!

Taking lots of little steps "towards" a goal that we've never even 
properly defined is exactly what leads to *inconsistency* in the language.

I think a number of people are not "anti-type-hints", they just don't 
agree with this particular implementation.

Regards,
-- 
Rowan Collins
[IMSoP]