Newsgroups: php.internals Path: news.php.net Xref: news.php.net php.internals:94174 Return-Path: Mailing-List: contact internals-help@lists.php.net; run by ezmlm Delivered-To: mailing list internals@lists.php.net Received: (qmail 56001 invoked from network); 21 Jun 2016 17:43:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO lists.php.net) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 21 Jun 2016 17:43:50 -0000 Authentication-Results: pb1.pair.com header.from=php@fleshgrinder.com; sender-id=unknown Authentication-Results: pb1.pair.com smtp.mail=php@fleshgrinder.com; spf=permerror; sender-id=unknown Received-SPF: error (pb1.pair.com: domain fleshgrinder.com from 77.244.243.85 cause and error) X-PHP-List-Original-Sender: php@fleshgrinder.com X-Host-Fingerprint: 77.244.243.85 mx104.easyname.com Received: from [77.244.243.85] ([77.244.243.85:46954] helo=mx206.easyname.com) by pb1.pair.com (ecelerity 2.1.1.9-wez r(12769M)) with ESMTP id 40/E1-43024-4DC79675 for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 13:43:48 -0400 Received: from cable-81-173-134-219.netcologne.de ([81.173.134.219] helo=[192.168.178.20]) by mx.easyname.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1bFPiD-0002Iu-70; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 17:43:45 +0000 Reply-To: internals@lists.php.net References: <1726fd34-8c3c-0af8-ab97-630cbbf13772@fleshgrinder.com> <49fb7830-b186-523a-696c-39e251738bdb@fleshgrinder.com> To: Tom Worster , php-internals Cc: Christoph Becker , Niklas Keller , Pierre Joye Message-ID: <63bb3ecc-d896-08e4-7b55-9b60a87c6457@fleshgrinder.com> Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 19:43:35 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="RE05fMvlwLMsijIxRiqBwPb035xmBaFKW" X-ACL-Warn: X-DNSBL-BARRACUDACENTRAL Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] RNG fixes From: php@fleshgrinder.com (Fleshgrinder) --RE05fMvlwLMsijIxRiqBwPb035xmBaFKW Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="RAAILm2aeOlDkeCLnQDTgXVOtX1AgGW76" From: Fleshgrinder Reply-To: internals@lists.php.net To: Tom Worster , php-internals Cc: Christoph Becker , Niklas Keller , Pierre Joye Message-ID: <63bb3ecc-d896-08e4-7b55-9b60a87c6457@fleshgrinder.com> Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] RNG fixes References: <1726fd34-8c3c-0af8-ab97-630cbbf13772@fleshgrinder.com> <49fb7830-b186-523a-696c-39e251738bdb@fleshgrinder.com> In-Reply-To: --RAAILm2aeOlDkeCLnQDTgXVOtX1AgGW76 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 6/19/2016 11:18 PM, Tom Worster wrote: > Actually I satisfied myself that both MT19937 and PHP's mt_rand() produ= ce > good quality random variates and I posted the evidence behind the belie= f. > I don't think being slow and inefficient with memory justifies removal = or > deprecation (premature optimization). >=20 Your message reads very different. http://marc.info/?l=3Dphp-internals&m=3D146612561316722&w=3D2 On 6/19/2016 11:18 PM, Tom Worster wrote: > I think the decision to change this RNG or not is best left to the user= s. > Only they understand the pros and cons of their specific context. > Furthermore, I would prefer that if they decide nothing, perhaps even > being unaware of the question, they can upgrade PHP and their programs > still work. >=20 > This is my opinion. >=20 Yes, let's ask the users! But we don't do that, we just discuss it here. Howe could we create such a poll that reaches many people? Maybe Reddit? On 6/19/2016 11:18 PM, Tom Worster wrote: > It is quite common that different people can have full and correct > appreciation of the technical aspects of something and have different > judgements regarding the best action. So I am surprised you cannot imag= ine > that someone who disagrees with your conclusions could understand the > facts of the matter. >=20 > In the language of politics and policy, since that's what this really > is... You advocate a top-down structural approach to changing individua= l > behavior for their own and the greater good. I advocate for new > facilities, education, and the individual's responsibility to decide > what's best for them. Subjective differences like this shouldn't be > unbelievable, they should be expected. >=20 > As a general matter of taste, I don't like to be drawn by the "prove me= > wrong" rhetorical method. And in this specific position of this > php-internals thread I don't see any chance of changing minds by arguin= g > over what constitutes a legitimate use of a random in a PHP program. So= , > on both counts, I prefer not to. >=20 > You have clearly stated your positions and explained your reasons. Plea= se > grant that other people with different positions and reasons may not fe= el > any need or desire to prove you wrong and please don't represent this a= s > evidence in support of your assertions. >=20 > Tom >=20 Thanks for this thoughtful response. I think that my harsh attitude here also reflect my frustration of the resistance towards cleaning things up in general and is not only about this thread in particular. This is of course not right of me. That being said, I repeat myself now, nikic also proposed to deprecate rand() and having pcg_rand() as a modern replacement for mt_rand() is just logical for me and yes it is hard to understand for me how people can be against that. I did not say that people are not allowed to be against this view, just that I it is hard or close to impossible for me personally to follow that logic. We'll see where it leads us. :) --=20 Richard "Fleshgrinder" Fussenegger --RAAILm2aeOlDkeCLnQDTgXVOtX1AgGW76-- --RE05fMvlwLMsijIxRiqBwPb035xmBaFKW Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJXaXzKAAoJEOKkKcqFPVVrwTgP/AlqIrJ1u6x3R0ZDcoBf8soR zVHiQRY+CVxltohc7qgxQ86y0lrr5wJVaqaaeeMZRBDWD4AOcBDaIAsPr4paoUIZ HwFep2Jxab6X+dcAfWBq+66J8YgAjirgYoZeROEQo0O37D2fKyyH8kloLVeZoGzz hOWjB6NuVeQB+llGjSyp3NW64Tqonu3mUN5lk+OqpZtRBBAqN+pMEg6qKrfNBkpk S+oNcZ2wYnnAqALeS92doVl9QC0c5cNnDqVSE07+FeXetmSj5cbqDtp9jmQxge8+ 9ZNwj+ZI10BNOLoKdfH7hfSMEEbpzyw2VL8aw8sdvxYmIXMwTm3DeErbF2caMaXJ i3khK5huc5b1kkMFUNqStDmebt6Jr/yYWdXDGmlI2E1UZzO0Ouo5HK0+OLJ3jGFH hOy741I7fQajx9To1oNV48VqbEkQ8WIZ2I1eTHWWtCsmeZSmlPe60Dq5Sd6v70c9 Xx4NlXkTXcb8QNiAPuZqr8hgt3XFduFRJ2oWfaS6ZU6f2emtXiFepvWqjK1pPoGK fY4fGb7qedqSM/MhS2NC0QnJhtCWH5k66g5wKLV41YQWp/QFKkEM4yaLV4MT2XQC dCHKOBluY5fHF45Vam/Dq7pthSzWr5Bzjxpr1Ee4gcXTW1c5aucGWUKX9zcX2/N7 EsO0C2r6TcdZVw8JUl5n =wahF -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --RE05fMvlwLMsijIxRiqBwPb035xmBaFKW--