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Subject: RE: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] PHP Attributes
From: zeev@zend.com (Zeev Suraski)



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Fleshgrinder [mailto:php@fleshgrinder.com]
> Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2016 2:49 PM
> To: Zeev Suraski <zeev@zend.com>; Sebastian Bergmann
> <sebastian@php.net>
> Cc: internals@lists.php.net
> Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] PHP Attributes
>=20
> On 4/24/2016 1:00 PM, Zeev Suraski wrote:
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Sebastian Bergmann [mailto:sebastian@php.net]
> >> Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2016 12:14 PM
> >> To: internals@lists.php.net
> >> Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] PHP Attributes
> >>
> >> On 04/21/2016 11:13 PM, Dmitry Stogov wrote:
> >>> I would like to present an RFC proposing support for native annotatio=
n.
> >>
> >> Dmitry,
> >>
> >> please use "annotation" as the name for this feature and not "attribut=
e".
> >>
> >> We already have attributes: it's what we use to store data in
> >> objects. And while some people call them "member variables" or
> >> "properties" the correct term for them (AFAIK) is "attribute".
> >
> > I don't think I've ever heard properties referred to as attributes in t=
he
> context of PHP.  The PHP manual defines them and refers to them throughou=
t
> as 'properties'.
> >
> > (I'm not voicing an opinion on attributes vs. annotations;  Just pointi=
ng out
> that data storage inside objects isn't named attributes).
> >
> > Zeev
> >
>=20
> The terminology here is pretty clear and you can just look it up, it has =
nothing
> to do with PHP or Java or whatever. The main problem is simply that peopl=
e
> do not know the terminology and get mixed up. That is usually okay in a
> casual discussion where each peer understands what the other is referring=
 to.
> However, we are dealing with language specification here and need to be v=
ery
> exact or we fuck it up for the users.
>=20
> `$x` is a property in the following example:
>=20
>   class A {
>     $x;
>   }
>=20
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Property_%28programming%29

Richard,

Thanks for the programming 101 lesson :)

I pointed out to Sebastian, who suggested that 'attributes' are equivalent =
to 'member variables' or 'properties', that they're very consistently refer=
red to in PHP as 'properties' and that I'm not aware that they were ever re=
ferred to as 'attributes'.

Nothing in your links suggested otherwise, arguably the opposite.  Accordin=
g to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attribute_(computing), "An attribute is =
frequently and generally a property of a property", and while "the term att=
ribute can and is often treated as equivalent to a property depending on th=
e technology being discussed", when the technology in question is PHP, this=
 is not the case.

Of course, member visibility modifiers and access modifiers (public/protect=
ed/private, static, etc.) are a different thing.  Saying member variables a=
re referred to as attributes (incorrect in the context of PHP, AFAIK) is ve=
ry different from saying these modifiers are referred to as attributes (cor=
rect and sensible).

Last, we're absolutely allowed to have our own definitions of terms as long=
 as they're sensible.  Both attributes and annotations are sensible here, a=
nd the fact there may be languages that treat attributes as equivalent to p=
roperties isn't a strong reason against using that term for something sensi=
ble, that is different from these other languages, in PHP.

Zeev