Newsgroups: php.internals
Path: news.php.net
Xref: news.php.net php.internals:92512
Mailing-List: contact internals-help@lists.php.net; run by ezmlm
Received-SPF: pass (pb1.pair.com: domain gmail.com designates 209.85.192.170 as permitted sender)
To: Marco Pivetta <ocramius@gmail.com>, Ronald Chmara <ronabop@gmail.com>
References: <CAFMT4Nq+VdfYS+eKbdbmPr92-X1QYCE2eOtPGo6Zu1qgAOGkhA@mail.gmail.com>
 <6F.C3.12455.94C5F075@pb1.pair.com> <20160414094440.GF19347@phcomp.co.uk>
 <CAKSD0w6Gd7uN2L=d3VfnK-Mj+cwjpcGtCpjfD6iq+VMmJVxkhA@mail.gmail.com>
 <570FD94F.90703@fleshgrinder.com> <570FE8A9.4020809@gmail.com>
 <20.53.29891.17401175@pb1.pair.com> <57110BCD.5030009@garfieldtech.com>
 <571124C2.9040606@gmx.de> <57112F31.8070209@garfieldtech.com>
 <BY2PR02MB298C91463EC030C3710EFD2AC6C0@BY2PR02MB298.namprd02.prod.outlook.com>
 <57167C35.8080601@gmail.com> <57168FCC.7000507@garfieldtech.com>
 <BY2PR02MB298C8AB7EE3C1EB40A4CB5AAC6C0@BY2PR02MB298.namprd02.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAFMT4NoqVMRmDKSNC1wCyeBn2mH81K=VEP0i43OzcUKgzAfjXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BY2PR02MB298619E23B62D2D375454BCAC6C0@BY2PR02MB298.namprd02.prod.outlook.com>
 <CADyq6sJjO9SWHZcH6X2DJL=QJvrbL3LbdoDBWNhSCq2FWjnYhw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFWS2+GfdV+csOy3OvU6etHn7kVdbfMp6+yOTO2KuyeDmUaCoA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADyq6sLRavB_vKFTmXXy5zTw1JGRL-nTWfUNgGNgcar_Oji+qQ@mail.gmail.com>
Cc: Zeev Suraski <zeev@zend.com>, Levi Morrison <levim@php.net>,
 "internals@lists.php.net" <internals@lists.php.net>
Message-ID: <5716C1B7.9040001@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 16:39:35 -0700
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:38.0)
 Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.7.1
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <CADyq6sLRavB_vKFTmXXy5zTw1JGRL-nTWfUNgGNgcar_Oji+qQ@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Improving PHP's type system
From: smalyshev@gmail.com (Stanislav Malyshev)

Hi!

> So the Symfony2 routing and Doctrine ORM are academic proof of concepts?

I'm sorry I'm a bit lost about how you got from "prioritizing
'interesting playground' is more suited for academic PoC than for a
mature language" to "Doctrine ORM is an academic PoC". I have little
knowledge on what Doctrine ORM implementation is, but I'm pretty sure
deep technical details of Doctrine ORM should not be primary driver in
designing PHP's type system. There's a lot of ways to write ORM, and I'm
sure Doctrine developers are smart enough to do what is necessary. If
there's some generic lesson they can give us that would serve everybody
- let's hear it then.

> We got to the point of inventing language features by building hacks around
> the engine (Levi and I had a heated discussion about it) due to practical
> necessity, not due to technical/academic onanism.

I appreciate that your specific use case requires certain things. I even
think there is a good concept for these things, if I understand them
right - namely, annotations - and those are used in many other
environments (see? I'm not afraid to quote other languages where it is
appropriate! ;) What I am questioning is that wiring those things into
PHP type system is the right move.

> Removing the hacks and replacing them with actual language features would
> be the way to go here, but let's just keep assuming that wordpress is the
> baseline for good software in 2016.

I have little idea what you referring to here, but I assume you think
wordpress is actually bad software, though I am still a bit lost as to
how it connects to the rest of the discussion.

There are a lot of additions that may improve PHP in many practical
ways. I just think right now there's a bit too much focus on adding new
syntax that adds much more complexity than it's worth. I'm not against
adding new syntax per se, I guess I just want more necessary
capabilities enabled per complexity added ratio.
-- 
Stas Malyshev
smalyshev@gmail.com