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Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 08:13:54 +0200
Message-ID: <CAEU6NAds4UZ-FPEy3kxbWHDSxk5ps1+kHykLxoVBCBe6GxoOMA@mail.gmail.com>
To: Zeev Suraski <zeev@zend.com>
Cc: Larry Garfield <larry@garfieldtech.com>, 
	"internals@lists.php.net" <internals@lists.php.net>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b5d83fda8527c05306bcd97
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Improving PHP's type system
From: peter.e.lind@gmail.com (Peter Lind)

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On 14 April 2016 at 01:43, Zeev Suraski <zeev@zend.com> wrote:

>
> > On 14 =D7=91=D7=90=D7=A4=D7=A8=D7=B3 2016, at 7:14, Larry Garfield <lar=
ry@garfieldtech.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >> On 4/13/16 3:24 PM, Stanislav Malyshev wrote:
> >> Hi!
> >>
> >>> May I suggest you the following article (more of a starting point int=
o
> >>> Ceylon actually) regarding this topic:
> >> There was a time where PHP was considered a good beginner's language.
> >> Now it seems we want to pivot and target category theory PhDs instead?
> :)
> >
> > A language that is usable primarily by beginners will only be useful fo=
r
> beginners.  Non-beginners will shun it, or simply grow out of it and leav=
e.
> >
> > A language that is usable only by PhDs will be useful only for PhDs.
> Beginners won't be able to comprehend it.
> >
> > A language that is usable by both beginners and PhDs, and can scale a
> user from beginner to PhD within the same language, will be used by both.
> >
> > Doing that is really hard. And really awesome. And the direction PHP ha=
s
> been trending in recent years is in that direction.  Which is pretty dang=
ed
> awesome. :-)
>
> I would argue that PHP was already doing that almost since inception.  I
> think we have ample evidence that we've been seeing a lot of different
> types of usage - both beginners' and ultra advanced going on in PHP for
> decades.
> I would also argue that in recent years, the trending direction has been
> focusing on the "PhDs", while neglecting the simplicity seekers (which I
> wouldn't necessarily call beginners).  Making PHP more and more about bei=
ng
> like yet-another-language, as opposed to one that tries to come up with
> creative, simplified ways of solving problems.
> Last, I'd argue that a language that tries to be everything for everybody
> ends up being the "everything's and the kitchen sink", rather than
> somethings that is truly suitable for everyone.
>
> We also seemed to have dumped some of our fundamental working assumptions
> - that have made PHP extremely successful to begin with:
>
> - Emphasis on simplicity
> - Adding optional features makes the language more complex regardless of
> whether everyone uses them or not
>
>
Really? The recent number of RFCs focusing on making some of PHPs
annoyances go away have passed you by? They seem to fall squarely within
"emphasis on simplicity" as far as I can tell.

Also, PHP is known as the language with a million ways to do things, where
some functions even have aliases because reasons. It's been that way since
a very long time. That suggests to me that complexity/optional features are
not frowned upon - only some types of complexity are seen as bad, and only
some types of simplicity are apparent worthwhile. Spelling out personal
preferences here would probably help solve these discussions faster.



> It does seem as if we're trying to replicate other languages, relentlessl=
y
> trying to "fix" PHP, which has been and still is one of the most successf=
ul
> languages out there - typically a lot more so than the languages we're
> trying to replicate.
>
>
Regards
Peter


--=20
CV: careers.stackoverflow.com/peterlind
LinkedIn: plind
Twitter: kafe15

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