Newsgroups: php.internals
Path: news.php.net
Xref: news.php.net php.internals:90876
Mailing-List: contact internals-help@lists.php.net; run by ezmlm
Received-SPF: error (pb1.pair.com: domain heigl.org from 195.191.240.18 cause and error)
To: Brandon Savage <brandon@brandonsavage.net>,
 PHP internals <internals@lists.php.net>
References: <CALuPxdC1qD-agcALhg19jwXe6QWGkoXmvw7q-y_Nrw2NCvFeeQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56A4A9AA.5020208@heigl.org>
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2016 11:38:34 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <CALuPxdC1qD-agcALhg19jwXe6QWGkoXmvw7q-y_Nrw2NCvFeeQ@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="------------ms020000060306020306020301"
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Specific incident in relationship to the proposed Code
 of Conduct
From: andreas@heigl.org (Andreas Heigl)

--------------ms020000060306020306020301
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi All.

Am 23.01.16 um 18:43 schrieb Brandon Savage:
> All,
>=20
> It's encouraging to see people working hard to improve and expand on th=
e
> proposed Code of Conduct for PHP. The strenuous and passionate debates
> aside, I'm pleased to see so many people working on this together.
>=20
> I want to propose a scenario that I came across this morning, that migh=
t
> work well as a thought exercise for us as a group in considering how we=

> would APPLY the Code of Conduct to specific members.
>=20
> This morning, Gary Hockin posted a pull request to the Doctrine project=
,
> proposing a rename from "Doctrine" to "Shitty". The full pull request i=
s
> here: https://github.com/doctrine/doctrine2/pull/5626 He then tagged on=
e of
> the maintainers personally. It was a master stroke of humor and trollin=
g
> between two friends. The PR was closed as "Cant Fix" due to "licensing
> issues" and "namespace conflicts."
>=20
> There are several things at issue here:

Just to illustrate the Problems that might arise with any CoC-issue:
>=20
> 1. This was an obvious attempt at trolling the Doctrine maintainers, a
> masterful stroke by a master (and well-known) troll who had no ill-inte=
nt.
> But it was still trolling, violating the CoC.
I couldn't find a CoC or a reference to it on the Doctrine-Homepage or
in the doctrine/doctrine2-Repo. So no, It's not been a violation of a
CoC and therefore not been an attempt in trolling. As the
Doctrine-Project is a separate project from PHP-Internals they are
comletely free to have their own ideas of having (or not having) a CoC
and we can not measure things happening there with a CoC we'd like to
have for PHP-Internals.

> 2. The vulgarity used to rename the project would generally be consider=
ed
> in most circles to be "unprofessional behavior."
"Generaly" and "most" are generalizations I wouldn't want to see
especially when handling CoC-Issues.

> 3. Tagging the maintainer could be construed as a "personal attack" on =
that
> person's work.
Reading through the PR, I (Yes, it's my personal view) can not see a
personal attack, as the poerson opening the PR asks the maintainer
whether the PR is considered helpfull for the project. So we could
discuss whether a hint that this is "Work in Progress" would have been
appropriate.
>=20
> GeeH is well-known and well-respected in the community. There's no doub=
t
> that in some capacity, he represents the community, especially since he=

> speaks regularly at conferences and events. In addition, by reading the=

> comments, it's clear that not everyone got the joke at first (see comme=
nts
> by "nuxwin" on the thread).
As I know the two persons in question it was clear at first sight what
the intention of the PR was. So those that didn't get the joke at first
sight might not know the two. Which brings me to how to reposnd to
something like that (if it happened on PHP-Internals).

>=20
> If someone came to the mediation team with a complaint that this pull
> request made them feel "unsafe", how would we as a community respond?
THe person in question (as anyone on the internals and all other
php-mailinglists) should have read these documents as they are the
mailinglist-posting guidelines!

http://php.net/mailing-lists.php
http://git.php.net/?p=3Dphp-src.git;a=3Dblob_plain;f=3DREADME.MAILINGLIST=
_RULES;hb=3DHEAD
http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.html

And one of the advices I always hear in regard to posting to a
mailing-list is "get to know the mailinglist" - meaning know about the
tone and about the people that are posting there. The same would apply
to the PR in question. Anyone who knows @geeh and @ocramius knows that
they have a very special sense of humour that might sprout such a PR.

So instead of making a call to the CommunityMediationTeam wouldn't it be
easier to make a call to some people that know the two and ask "what's
up there"? (Note that this is entirely focusing on the given example!)

> [...]
>=20
> Finally, the current Code of Conduct permits any person to complain, ev=
en
> if they weren't a party to the original incident. It permits this by no=
t
> explicitly restricting it. Even though it should be (and is to the
> reasonable person) clear that this was a joke, any person in the commun=
ity
> could complain and have an argument.

Yes, and that is good, as one of the paries might not even recognize a
violation of the CoC so for protection of those it is good that that is
possible. (now I'm not talking about the example in question)
>=20
> I think these are fixable problems. I propose the following:
>=20
> * The Code of Conduct should specifically state that a person who is no=
t a
> direct party to the alleged incident is not permitted to make a complai=
nt.
I'm against that for the above stated reason.

> * We should require that any person who is accused of violating the Cod=
e of
> Conduct clearly have intent to do so. This is a harder standard to prov=
e,
> but one that should help us from having to deal with edge cases. A deat=
h
> threat is a clear-cut case of intent, for example.
Proving that will become very hard and I wouldn't want any pseudo-legal
stuff going on.

> * The Code of Conduct should be modified so that abiding or not abiding=
 by
> it is demonstrable with evidence, taking "feelings" out of it entirely.=
 For
> example, a person shouldn't be in violation of the code because someone=

> "feels harassed/trolled/etc", it should be because they're ACTUALLY
> harassed/trolled/etc.
But that's entirely what it's all about! Feelings! Or how do you define
ACTUALL harrasment/trolling/etc? We need a safe space for members of
thius community that FEEL unhappy. A place they can come to whenever
they FEEL something is going wrong to talk to someone to see whether the
feeling might be accurat or not! And that's the point that is entirely
missing in the whole CoC-Debate.

> [...]
>=20
> Open to suggestions/comments on this. I'll work on pull requests to
> Derrick's repo over the next couple of days to let folks share their
> thoughts.

My Suggestions is:

* everyone read the three documents stated above and
* let's think about how to provide safe spaces where people with bad
feelings can turn to to find open ears that are willing to listen
without prejudice.

Just my 0.02=E2=82=AC

Cheers

Andreas
--=20
                                                              ,,,
                                                             (o o)
+---------------------------------------------------------ooO-(_)-Ooo-+
| Andreas Heigl                                                       |
| mailto:andreas@heigl.org                  N 50=C2=B022'59.5" E 08=C2=B0=
23'58" |
| http://andreas.heigl.org                       http://hei.gl/wiFKy7 |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
| http://hei.gl/root-ca                                               |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+


--------------ms020000060306020306020301
Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s"
Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
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--------------ms020000060306020306020301--