Newsgroups: php.internals Path: news.php.net Xref: news.php.net php.internals:90851 Return-Path: Mailing-List: contact internals-help@lists.php.net; run by ezmlm Delivered-To: mailing list internals@lists.php.net Received: (qmail 14769 invoked from network); 23 Jan 2016 18:08:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO lists.php.net) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 23 Jan 2016 18:08:20 -0000 Authentication-Results: pb1.pair.com smtp.mail=eli@eliw.com; spf=pass; sender-id=pass Authentication-Results: pb1.pair.com header.from=eli@eliw.com; sender-id=pass Received-SPF: pass (pb1.pair.com: domain eliw.com designates 69.195.198.246 as permitted sender) X-PHP-List-Original-Sender: eli@eliw.com X-Host-Fingerprint: 69.195.198.246 mx-mia-1.servergrove.com Received: from [69.195.198.246] ([69.195.198.246:54760] helo=mx-mia-1.servergrove.com) by pb1.pair.com (ecelerity 2.1.1.9-wez r(12769M)) with ESMTP id C3/C3-03822-291C3A65 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2016 13:08:19 -0500 Received: from [69.195.222.125] (helo=smtp2.servergrove.com) by mx-mia-1.servergrove.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.77) (envelope-from ) id 1aN2bf-00022y-Vu for internals@lists.php.net; Sat, 23 Jan 2016 18:08:15 +0000 Received: from [69.136.226.104] (port=56545 helo=[192.168.1.132]) by smtp2.servergrove.com with esmtpsa (UNKNOWN:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1aN2bf-0005W4-Q6; Sat, 23 Jan 2016 18:08:15 +0000 To: internals@lists.php.net References: X-Enigmail-Draft-Status: N1110 Message-ID: <56A3C191.3070503@eliw.com> Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2016 13:08:17 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="B6nDGbRI8DI7JjkoJtEb8PgHNGaeN3bnd" Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Specific incident in relationship to the proposed Code of Conduct From: eli@eliw.com (Eli) --B6nDGbRI8DI7JjkoJtEb8PgHNGaeN3bnd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey Brandon, definitely some thoughts for consideration. I did want to respond to one piece of this: > This is an important problem, because intent ("mens rea" > in Latin, for "guilty mind") is typically required to convict people of= > criminal acts in much of the world. For example, you cannot be convicte= d of > murder unless you had intent to kill the person (or should have known t= hat > your actions created the grave risk of death). I think this is somewhat incorrect. For example, yes, you cannot be convicted of murder, however you will be convicted still of Manslaughter. Even 'Involuntary Manslaughter' is still a crime. In those cases, even if you didn't mean to kill someone, but your actions/choices lead to that happening, is a crime. But that's very far afield of CoC violations anyway. Perhaps the best analogy would be in the legal definitions of harassment. Harassment does not require a 'guilty mind' to be convinced of such. IE: You don't get to say: "Oh, I didn't mean anything bad when I grabbed 's . It was a compliment!". The issue in that case, is that perhaps, truly to the person who commited that act, they had no guilty mind, that they truly felt that they were doing something right. Which 'average person' would respond 'oh heck no' towards. Of course, most laws (in the US at least) about harassment happen to only apply in a 'work context'. And not in 'general life'. Hence why one could argue that a project like PHP might want to enact something similar= =2E What could be determined to be harassment to one person, might be 'perfectly normal' to someone else. That's why the US Supreme Court came up with a method for determining this. Which was the 'Reasonable Person' standard. Basically per the courts definition, if a "reasonable person" / 3rd party would feel that action was harassment, then it was. Regardless of intent. And typically that reasonable person aspect is decided by a jury / peers / etc. Which, is very similar to what the purpose of having a Mediation/CoC team within a project would fulfill. Anyway, just more food for thought / another POV. Eli --=20 | Eli White | http://eliw.com/ | Twitter: EliW | --B6nDGbRI8DI7JjkoJtEb8PgHNGaeN3bnd Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2 iEYEARECAAYFAlajwZIACgkQUTBVzmoxCKLSbQCggdYsmmH/vrPtnYBzQS+cC+nw gT4An1u0Pu5MGMCCS9OJv371wsEJmYwX =O0FY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --B6nDGbRI8DI7JjkoJtEb8PgHNGaeN3bnd--