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Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2016 20:17:03 +0200
Message-ID: <CAL0xaBGPMWP0Z_d9qpx00-OBdZsqZ_OcHtXCOY3vWEq02cm0_Q@mail.gmail.com>
To: Stig Bakken <stig.bakken@gmail.com>
Cc: Anthony Ferrara <ircmaxell@gmail.com>, PHP internals <internals@lists.php.net>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114026508129120529b3e1f1
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] [Draft] Adopt Code of Conduct
From: arvids.godjuks@gmail.com (Arvids Godjuks)

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2016-01-19 20:03 GMT+02:00 Arvids Godjuks <arvids.godjuks@gmail.com>:

> Hello to everyone.
>
> The Draft states:
>
> "This Code of Conduct applies both within project spaces and in public
> spaces when an individual is representing the project or its community."
>
> TL;DR: Just no.
>
> Long version:
>
> What is the definition of "representing project or it's community". If I
> make a single commit that get's accepted to the project, and then I say
> something 3 years down the line about the project (in this case PHP), do I
> still represent the project or it's community? Or I have added to
> conversations on this mailing list for years now, does that mean i'm a
> contributor now and I'm responsible for anything I say about the project or
> it's community going forward?
> And what is PHP community? It's not like PHP community is a tight group -
> it's huge, with tens of millions of people at least all over the world.
>
> This is especially a worry for me, because I run a PHP conference, and
> people come to speak to it. I do not want to deal with people dictating me
> "I want you to pull this person because his views on blah are bla bla bla
> and that is unacceptable". I do not care about the persons views on any
> subject, unless:
> a). It breakes the laws of my country (hate speech, harassment, gender
> discrimination and all that stuff that is actually covered by laws).
> b). The person goes into issues, that are not the topic of the conference.
> c). Behaves in a way, that is not acceptable in the society (personal
> insults, unacceptable language, and so on).
> And what if I actually agree with that person in my own views? And why
> someone thinks he has the right to dictate what views are acceptable and
> witch are not? (i'm not talking about issues, that are universally
> unacceptable to talk about).
>
> Regarding c) - you should remember, that in different parts of the world
> the social norms vary - from slightly to moderate between western cultures,
> to quite a lot for asian/latin american/african/etc. . Every country is
> different, especially those, that are quite far apart. That means that
> people will be doing things, that are totally acceptable and are the norm
> in their country, when they are preforming at the local conference, but
> will probably trigger a storm somewhere else, and that may result in things
> going horribly wrong.
>
> So, as far as my personal opinion goes, CoC has to apply only to project
> spaces in full, and for the public spaces it has to have a clear
> definition, when CoC applies. I really do not want to see situation like
> they happened in other projects, when a person can be booted off the
> project just because he does not support some trending new thing in social
> areas (pick any social issue in recent 20 years), but is absolutely a model
> member of the project. This is a tech project, not a social gathering to
> impose social trends and rallying support for social issues.
>
> * Any personal opinions on any subject not directly related to the project
> itself should be out of the scope of CoC. This has to be written in from
> the start, otherwise people will find a way to exploit it to generate
> controversy and drama on the subjects that are not related to the PHP
> project.
> * CoC should clearly state that it is designed only to handle the conduct
> in project channels and official representation of the project. The
> representation part should be defined.
> * Any requests coming in on the issues, that are not directly related to
> the PHP project itself, should be outright rejected. In case of abuse
> (trying to re-open the issues) the access should be restricted if that's
> technically possible.
>
> Otherwise, as history shows, the rules are abused sooner or later. And the
> amount of controversy we have around PHP every minor and major release,
> that's a given.
>
> Above written is a rough thought list on the subject. Proposed CoC is too
> generic and allows for a lot of loopholes. We should really take out time,
> read up on the issues that did happen on other projects (and there are a
> lot of those), and not making a mistake of adopting a general CoC. Personal
> life's have nothing to do with the PHP project. Personal thoughts expressed
> outside of the project are just that - personal. And here in Europe, we
> have quite strict laws about personal stuff too, so even bringing up issues
> like "that person thinks that ... that he said to me in a personal
> conversation" are subject to laws, that prohibit this explicitly.
>
> Thank your for your time,
> Arvids.
>

One more thing: the CoC should really not allow for things to happen like
in this story:
http://blog.randi.io/2015/12/31/the-developer-formerly-known-as-freebsdgirl/
- is it true or not, and is there something else to it - isn't the point.
This is just an example of what CoC should not allow to happen. Ever.

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