Newsgroups: php.internals
Path: news.php.net
Xref: news.php.net php.internals:90719
Mailing-List: contact internals-help@lists.php.net; run by ezmlm
Received-SPF: pass (pb1.pair.com: domain gmail.com designates 209.85.215.47 as permitted sender)
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <CABM2syvR+7zsQo9mJtgFt9QXkQgNieLfMMsPVqD5rgMf8MTmGA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAyV7nFbngZ42qzbSFyveH+vsyir9QNtMJq8H=u9VqTBVBv5Og@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAyV7nHrip8Ljxjdi2DiGbcnXxY9JK+pN+LCwYKqsjJNvEyUrg@mail.gmail.com>
 <910b145571b2c3e98338d54c0dd6a981@mail.gmail.com> <CAAyV7nGGJ3-mCZhDcmhcjqgEOMUBQwvA0vVEE67K4Vmot4ep5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPgLKii-L-TvKLiSYNdcXxmkr60k2_93EE7hc9LSL=3NQwQjRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAESVnVqrXQHpYabkOZvVhbGVUNtQLLS_h=OsnaaQWhEeHWx+uw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAyV7nGV4Vawdq67j0eZa4j+R2zM_14-KZpBe_S6JUOc7-9Yfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <0E9E4C89-1800-4000-BD5A-BC81F43BE2FE@gohearsay.com> <CAAyV7nEVKqOJWn9Fb7Sa2cAPRBZ-Pu00BOmha4ObGciwPHXiGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <44142A2C-0E7C-4525-880F-7759CD8A502A@heroku.com> <CAAyV7nFNqn1qF3EKeVb7T0GcBS1--C8Rd_psog5zea6+57WOfA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABM2syvR+7zsQo9mJtgFt9QXkQgNieLfMMsPVqD5rgMf8MTmGA@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2016 20:03:47 +0200
Message-ID: <CAL0xaBGrBU6rX6FE_CKXWq8tc411m40YQPXwRRLiHccx-o6gaw@mail.gmail.com>
To: Stig Bakken <stig.bakken@gmail.com>
Cc: Anthony Ferrara <ircmaxell@gmail.com>, PHP internals <internals@lists.php.net>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114104701035c90529b3b296
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] [Draft] Adopt Code of Conduct
From: arvids.godjuks@gmail.com (Arvids Godjuks)

--001a114104701035c90529b3b296
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

Hello to everyone.

The Draft states:

"This Code of Conduct applies both within project spaces and in public
spaces when an individual is representing the project or its community."

TL;DR: Just no.

Long version:

What is the definition of "representing project or it's community". If I
make a single commit that get's accepted to the project, and then I say
something 3 years down the line about the project (in this case PHP), do I
still represent the project or it's community? Or I have added to
conversations on this mailing list for years now, does that mean i'm a
contributor now and I'm responsible for anything I say about the project or
it's community going forward?
And what is PHP community? It's not like PHP community is a tight group -
it's huge, with tens of millions of people at least all over the world.

This is especially a worry for me, because I run a PHP conference, and
people come to speak to it. I do not want to deal with people dictating me
"I want you to pull this person because his views on blah are bla bla bla
and that is unacceptable". I do not care about the persons views on any
subject, unless:
a). It breakes the laws of my country (hate speech, harassment, gender
discrimination and all that stuff that is actually covered by laws).
b). The person goes into issues, that are not the topic of the conference.
c). Behaves in a way, that is not acceptable in the society (personal
insults, unacceptable language, and so on).
And what if I actually agree with that person in my own views? And why
someone thinks he has the right to dictate what views are acceptable and
witch are not? (i'm not talking about issues, that are universally
unacceptable to talk about).

Regarding c) - you should remember, that in different parts of the world
the social norms vary - from slightly to moderate between western cultures,
to quite a lot for asian/latin american/african/etc. . Every country is
different, especially those, that are quite far apart. That means that
people will be doing things, that are totally acceptable and are the norm
in their country, when they are preforming at the local conference, but
will probably trigger a storm somewhere else, and that may result in things
going horribly wrong.

So, as far as my personal opinion goes, CoC has to apply only to project
spaces in full, and for the public spaces it has to have a clear
definition, when CoC applies. I really do not want to see situation like
they happened in other projects, when a person can be booted off the
project just because he does not support some trending new thing in social
areas (pick any social issue in recent 20 years), but is absolutely a model
member of the project. This is a tech project, not a social gathering to
impose social trends and rallying support for social issues.

* Any personal opinions on any subject not directly related to the project
itself should be out of the scope of CoC. This has to be written in from
the start, otherwise people will find a way to exploit it to generate
controversy and drama on the subjects that are not related to the PHP
project.
* CoC should clearly state that it is designed only to handle the conduct
in project channels and official representation of the project. The
representation part should be defined.
* Any requests coming in on the issues, that are not directly related to
the PHP project itself, should be outright rejected. In case of abuse
(trying to re-open the issues) the access should be restricted if that's
technically possible.

Otherwise, as history shows, the rules are abused sooner or later. And the
amount of controversy we have around PHP every minor and major release,
that's a given.

Above written is a rough thought list on the subject. Proposed CoC is too
generic and allows for a lot of loopholes. We should really take out time,
read up on the issues that did happen on other projects (and there are a
lot of those), and not making a mistake of adopting a general CoC. Personal
life's have nothing to do with the PHP project. Personal thoughts expressed
outside of the project are just that - personal. And here in Europe, we
have quite strict laws about personal stuff too, so even bringing up issues
like "that person thinks that ... that he said to me in a personal
conversation" are subject to laws, that prohibit this explicitly.

Thank your for your time,
Arvids.

--001a114104701035c90529b3b296--