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Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 15:31:31 +0000 (GMT)
To: Stanislav Malyshev <smalyshev@gmail.com>
cc: Tom Worster <fsb@thefsb.org>, PHP internals <internals@lists.php.net>
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Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Internals and Newcomers and the Sidelines -- "let's
 proceed to ideas"
From: derick@php.net (Derick Rethans)

On Wed, 13 Jan 2016, Stanislav Malyshev wrote:

> > Right now I can call out your last paragraph. But before I do, 
> > remember John's point about perception versus reality. I go further. 
> > With respect to what goes down on a list-serv, there is only 
> > perception and nothing else matters. The following characterizations 
> > may seem wrong to you but if
> 
> I don't think it's right. This is basically claiming the right to deny 
> reality. Of course, each person has the right to be delusional, but if 
> we each operate on basis of our own delusions without basis in 
> reality, I don't see how collaboration would be possible.
> 
> > wrong. But unless you did, "and still have no answer" is an 
> > accusation of me and/or John of being delinquent in answering it.
> 
> No, it's not. It is trying to get us from venting bad feeling to 
> looking for solution - in which I failed miserably, evidently. You can 
> build a narrative of being offended and attacked out of anything, if 
> you are determined to do so. This, however, is an unproductive and 
> nonconstructive behavior, which will never find any solutions and 
> improve anything.
> 
> I however would submit it presents an excellent example of the danger 
> of enforcing such vague and subtle things as "perception" and 
> "atmosphere". One can blow literally *anything* out of proportion and 
> present it as an attack and an insult, even if nothing like that was 
> ever meant.
> 
> > However, I am not sure this was your purpose. 1. thru 6. also 
> > suggest your
> 
> My purpose was to start constructive process of producing ideas and 
> finding solutions, if there was a will to cooperate on that. So far my 
> impression is there's none. OK then, moving on to code fixes.

I'd like to point out, that this again sounds very dismissive. Exactly 
what Tom pointed out regarding your previous response. As an example, 
the following would have sounded a lot more cooperative:

"My purpose was to start a constructive process of producing ideas and 
finding solutions."

That's all you needed. The rest was superfluous, and dismissive.

cheers,
Derick

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