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Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2016 10:53:19 -0500
Message-ID: <CAFi=QfaCSXREi7uF8nE+v1nikykAstTgACGOoH+MzGF72ChQDA@mail.gmail.com>
To: James Gilliland <neclimdul@gmail.com>
Cc: John Bafford <jbafford@zort.net>, Sascha Schumann <sascha.schumann@myrasecurity.com>, 
	Pierre Joye <pierre.php@gmail.com>, PHP internals <internals@lists.php.net>
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Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Back to the code (was Re: Internals and Newcomers and
 the Sidelines (WAS: Adopt Code of Conduct))
From: oldschooldsl@gmail.com (Adam Howard)

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And I'll repeat..

If you want to write that code of conduct, please, feel free to actually
publish an outline code of conduct here, right now, and I and everyone else
will be happy to review it.  Because as it stands now, all I hear (read) is
arguing and complaining, but you've yet to offer an actual draft (solution)=
.

On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 10:50 AM, James Gilliland <neclimdul@gmail.com>
wrote:

> I'm pretty sure everyone here has ignored emails before. A CoC is pretty
> darn important(in my opinion) but if you've decided the discussion isn't
> useful to you, just add a filter or just don't open the emails. Its not
> that hard.
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 8:52 AM John Bafford <jbafford@zort.net> wrote:
>
>> Adam, Sascha,
>>
>> > On Jan 13, 2016, at 08:53, Adam Howard <oldschooldsl@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > Well, I'm glad someone is in agreement.  I really wish we'd get back t=
o
>> the actual code.  Because if not, I do think perhaps PHP Internals as
>> outlived the email format and should migrate to a forum format.  I think=
 I
>> and many others did not subscribe to a mailing list for this type of
>> argument and at this point it is becoming hard to follow, assume you wer=
e
>> interested in it.
>> >
>> > This little link http://www.php.net/unsub.php to unsubscribe is the
>> last report, but if this all we're going to keep arguing about, it sure
>> isn't going to encourage newbies, let alone long-timers such as myself.
>> >
>> > On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 1:26 AM, Sascha Schumann <
>> sascha.schumann@myrasecurity.com> wrote:
>> > > On January 12, 2016 at 7:05 PM Adam Howard <oldschooldsl@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > Can we please move on past this and get back to actual code.  Becaus=
e
>> if
>> > > not, perhaps PHP Internals has outgrown the email format and should
>> migrate
>> > > to a forum type format.
>> >
>> > Agreed.
>>
>> This is almost exactly the point I was trying to make.
>>
>> There is a serious problem with the conversation on internals, and the
>> immediate reaction is, =E2=80=9Cthere=E2=80=99s no problem, this is a di=
straction, stop
>> talking about this and talk about something else=E2=80=9D.
>>
>> Even if you didn=E2=80=99t *mean* that, that=E2=80=99s what was heard.
>>
>>
>> In one email, and one =E2=80=9Cme too=E2=80=9D follow-up you=E2=80=99ve:
>>
>> * attempted to silence an important discussion
>> * suggested that that the opinion held (and Fran=C3=A7ois=E2=80=99 quest=
ion) is not
>> worthy of discussion
>> * distracted the discussion with an unusable suggestion [* see below]
>> * provided nothing constructive to help actually solve the problem
>> * reinforced the notion that nothing is wrong and everything is fine.
>>
>> THIS is toxic internals.
>>
>>
>> Let me elaborate on the third point, particularly the distracted and
>> unusable bits:
>>
>> You make the assertion that this conversation is an indication that
>> php-internals has outgrown email and should migrate platforms. And you
>> propose an alternative.
>>
>> But you don=E2=80=99t explain *why* you think that this conversation has=
 outgrown
>> email, and even more importantly, you don=E2=80=99t you don=E2=80=99t ac=
tually explain
>> *why* a forum format would be an improvement.
>>
>> I=E2=80=99m not saying that a forum *couldn=E2=80=99t* be an improvement=
. But without you
>> giving any supporting argument, you=E2=80=99ve given nothing concrete th=
at anyone
>> can have a discussion about. It=E2=80=99s not actively helping to solve =
the
>> problem. It=E2=80=99s just more noise that serves to make people think t=
heir
>> comments don=E2=80=99t matter. (For the record: I don=E2=80=99t like for=
ums. And I really
>> don=E2=80=99t see how forums would solve the culture problem. But me say=
ing that,
>> and only that, is just as constructive as you saying only that we should
>> switch to one.)
>>
>> So, your suggestion is unusable, because it provides nothing constructiv=
e
>> or actionable; and it is a distraction because the platform we use to ta=
lk
>> is *entirely* irrelevant to how people hold conversations on that platfo=
rm,
>> and rather than discussing the problem, you try to talk about something
>> completely unrelated instead.
>>
>>
>> I didn=E2=80=99t sign up for internals looking to deal with this either.=
 But
>> there is a problem, and it is keeping me from actually contributing code=
.
>> And I=E2=80=99ve been sitting on the sidelines here for a *long* time. I=
=E2=80=99m trying
>> to make it so that newbies feel welcome to contribute. I=E2=80=99m tryin=
g to make
>> it so that the old-timers who have reduced their participation feel like
>> they can come back and be productive again.
>>
>> I would *love* to talk about code now. I wish we didn=E2=80=99t have to =
talk
>> about this. But silencing the conversation and wishing the problem away
>> doesn=E2=80=99t fix the the giant elephpant in the room. It just *makes =
it worse*.
>>
>> -John
>>
>>
>> --
>> PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
>> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>>
>>

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