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Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2016 15:50:44 +0000
Message-ID: <CAO3MkaCqnsyPaHKNnCAZVkJfQ=dB2PZie8VHB1TO+HfFYBd9EQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: John Bafford <jbafford@zort.net>, Adam Howard <oldschooldsl@gmail.com>, 
	Sascha Schumann <sascha.schumann@myrasecurity.com>
Cc: Pierre Joye <pierre.php@gmail.com>, PHP internals <internals@lists.php.net>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113a29ea919e3205293922ab
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Back to the code (was Re: Internals and Newcomers and
 the Sidelines (WAS: Adopt Code of Conduct))
From: neclimdul@gmail.com (James Gilliland)

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I'm pretty sure everyone here has ignored emails before. A CoC is pretty
darn important(in my opinion) but if you've decided the discussion isn't
useful to you, just add a filter or just don't open the emails. Its not
that hard.


On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 8:52 AM John Bafford <jbafford@zort.net> wrote:

> Adam, Sascha,
>
> > On Jan 13, 2016, at 08:53, Adam Howard <oldschooldsl@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Well, I'm glad someone is in agreement.  I really wish we'd get back to
> the actual code.  Because if not, I do think perhaps PHP Internals as
> outlived the email format and should migrate to a forum format.  I think =
I
> and many others did not subscribe to a mailing list for this type of
> argument and at this point it is becoming hard to follow, assume you were
> interested in it.
> >
> > This little link http://www.php.net/unsub.php to unsubscribe is the
> last report, but if this all we're going to keep arguing about, it sure
> isn't going to encourage newbies, let alone long-timers such as myself.
> >
> > On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 1:26 AM, Sascha Schumann <
> sascha.schumann@myrasecurity.com> wrote:
> > > On January 12, 2016 at 7:05 PM Adam Howard <oldschooldsl@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > Can we please move on past this and get back to actual code.  Because
> if
> > > not, perhaps PHP Internals has outgrown the email format and should
> migrate
> > > to a forum type format.
> >
> > Agreed.
>
> This is almost exactly the point I was trying to make.
>
> There is a serious problem with the conversation on internals, and the
> immediate reaction is, =E2=80=9Cthere=E2=80=99s no problem, this is a dis=
traction, stop
> talking about this and talk about something else=E2=80=9D.
>
> Even if you didn=E2=80=99t *mean* that, that=E2=80=99s what was heard.
>
>
> In one email, and one =E2=80=9Cme too=E2=80=9D follow-up you=E2=80=99ve:
>
> * attempted to silence an important discussion
> * suggested that that the opinion held (and Fran=C3=A7ois=E2=80=99 questi=
on) is not
> worthy of discussion
> * distracted the discussion with an unusable suggestion [* see below]
> * provided nothing constructive to help actually solve the problem
> * reinforced the notion that nothing is wrong and everything is fine.
>
> THIS is toxic internals.
>
>
> Let me elaborate on the third point, particularly the distracted and
> unusable bits:
>
> You make the assertion that this conversation is an indication that
> php-internals has outgrown email and should migrate platforms. And you
> propose an alternative.
>
> But you don=E2=80=99t explain *why* you think that this conversation has =
outgrown
> email, and even more importantly, you don=E2=80=99t you don=E2=80=99t act=
ually explain
> *why* a forum format would be an improvement.
>
> I=E2=80=99m not saying that a forum *couldn=E2=80=99t* be an improvement.=
 But without you
> giving any supporting argument, you=E2=80=99ve given nothing concrete tha=
t anyone
> can have a discussion about. It=E2=80=99s not actively helping to solve t=
he
> problem. It=E2=80=99s just more noise that serves to make people think th=
eir
> comments don=E2=80=99t matter. (For the record: I don=E2=80=99t like foru=
ms. And I really
> don=E2=80=99t see how forums would solve the culture problem. But me sayi=
ng that,
> and only that, is just as constructive as you saying only that we should
> switch to one.)
>
> So, your suggestion is unusable, because it provides nothing constructive
> or actionable; and it is a distraction because the platform we use to tal=
k
> is *entirely* irrelevant to how people hold conversations on that platfor=
m,
> and rather than discussing the problem, you try to talk about something
> completely unrelated instead.
>
>
> I didn=E2=80=99t sign up for internals looking to deal with this either. =
But there
> is a problem, and it is keeping me from actually contributing code. And
> I=E2=80=99ve been sitting on the sidelines here for a *long* time. I=E2=
=80=99m trying to
> make it so that newbies feel welcome to contribute. I=E2=80=99m trying to=
 make it
> so that the old-timers who have reduced their participation feel like the=
y
> can come back and be productive again.
>
> I would *love* to talk about code now. I wish we didn=E2=80=99t have to t=
alk about
> this. But silencing the conversation and wishing the problem away doesn=
=E2=80=99t
> fix the the giant elephpant in the room. It just *makes it worse*.
>
> -John
>
>
> --
> PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>
>

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